Second class members (resale)

CraigInPA

Since June 1974
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
why should people buying resale get the same benefits as people paying full price?
Full price as of when?

When BLT was actively being sold, it was $112 per point, with discounts bringing it to, IIRC, $93 per point. That was in 2009.

When I bought a BLT resale contract in 2017, it was $112 per point, and that was considered to be a bargain at the time.

Today, BLT resale is $143 per point.

So, to recap, DVC got $93-112 per point when it was sold at "full price". Subsequent (resale) purchasers paid original purchasers more for it. Every owner has paid the full maintenance fees.

DVC devalues the resale experience in order to "double dip" by reselling points they acquire through foreclosure, default, and ROFR. They do this by using marketing funds to offer "membership extras".

The introduction of booking restrictions on resale L14 booking Riviera and Riviera resale only booking at Riviera is the first restriction that directly attacks the notion that "all points are the same at 7 months", which has been a key part of DVC since the second resort was opened. DVC has moved from adding things to entice people to buy direct, to actively sabotaging the resale market with restrictions.

Disclosure: I have direct points, and resale points, all at BLT.
 

Bing Showei

DIS Veteran
Joined
Sep 10, 2017
Full price as of when?

When BLT was actively being sold, it was $112 per point, with discounts bringing it to, IIRC, $93 per point. That was in 2009.

When I bought a BLT resale contract in 2017, it was $112 per point, and that was considered to be a bargain at the time.

Today, BLT resale is $143 per point.

So, to recap, DVC got $93-112 per point when it was sold at "full price". Subsequent (resale) purchasers paid original purchasers more for it. Every owner has paid the full maintenance fees.

DVC devalues the resale experience in order to "double dip" by reselling points they acquire through foreclosure, default, and ROFR. They do this by using marketing funds to offer "membership extras".

The introduction of booking restrictions on resale L14 booking Riviera and Riviera resale only booking at Riviera is the first restriction that directly attacks the notion that "all points are the same at 7 months", which has been a key part of DVC since the second resort was opened. DVC has moved from adding things to entice people to buy direct, to actively sabotaging the resale market with restrictions.

Disclosure: I have direct points, and resale points, all at BLT.
You make some excellent points and I actually agree with all of this, but there are two different things we’re talking about here.

One thing, is Disney leveraging benefits to sell direct. The other is resale buyers saving a lot of money buying resale and then feeling shafted.

As a predominantly-resale owner, I knew exactly what I was getting into when I bought this. I knew the limitations of the ownership and I was ok with that.

The question of whether or not resale owners should get benefits is debatable, but what isn’t debatable is that when we each bought in, we should’ve bought in knowing what the game is.
 

Minniesgal

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Who cares people paying resale pay loads less but get the same key benefit ie a room to stay in. Who cares about class of member.
 
  • CanadaDisney05

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 20, 2017
    Who cares people paying resale pay loads less but get the same key benefit ie a room to stay in. Who cares about class of member.
    It's not just "class". There are tangible difference between the two types of memberships.

    1) "Membership Extras" give you discounts. Some are significant, some are essentially worthless to most. It depends on your personal situation.

    2) Ability to book at "new resorts".

    The two types of memberships are more than just a title. Any buyer subject to these differences has all the information easily available to determine whether the extra cost of going direct is worth it for them personally
     

    Lumpy1106

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jul 2, 2010
    At some point in time someone paid full price for those points. If the original owner has those points for 50 years DVC has no problem giving them perks. But if you sell those points, even if it is a price higher than they originally sold for, no benefits for you. Doesn’t make much sense. I understand they want you to buy direct. Not everyone can hold onto these points for 50 years. I own both resale and directs.
    Resale owner here, and I bought resale because the perks that are offered are of no benefit to me. I am from CA so no need for a WDW AP, the DVC only events are short notice so I could never attend, I got in before the 2019 restrictions so I'm good there (though I do feel like that was over-the-line and is diminishing the DVC value for everyone). The only thing I have FOMA about (and it's really not that big of a deal) is the special direct DVC only tours - those sound cool. However, those are extremely tough to book so there's a good chance I'd never get that perk either.

    Jackal has a good point though. ANY other timeshare would be 100% (or very nearly so) direct-owned - but not DVC. Not only do I not get the perks, neither does the original owner of my points. Thinking of it that way, Disney relies on the resale owners to limit the participants, and thus the expenditures for the direct perks they do offer. Would perks be offered if everyone got them? The other timeshares don't have perks. I don't see how they could.
     

    SL6827

    Them, loving the lake. Me- not so much!
    Joined
    Apr 23, 2017
    Who cares people paying resale pay loads less but get the same key benefit ie a room to stay in. Who cares about class of member.
    Exactly. I never felt like a 2nd class citizen when I owned. But I did feel special in the CL studio at AKL though. :teeth:
     

    crisi

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2002
    I'm an old resale owner - all the benefits, all the savings. But, despite having all the benefits, they aren't used. An AP doesn't fit our travel needs. We've used discounts here and there, but more often than not, the DVC discounts aren't for what we want when we want it. We bothered with a MM at AK last trip because it coincided with our travel - but it was a bust - I wouldn't go out of my way to do it again. We aren't likely to ever stay at Riveria or Reflections, heck, in 20 years we've stayed at 4 resorts other than our home - and I'd be happy if I only could book home. My husband used the Epcot lounge briefly last trip - to try and make a work phone call, but it was too busy for that.

    Disney themselves has been quite fair in making sure that the terms you bought in at are the terms that have pretty much remained - grandfathering in current resale owners with each step in the benefits restriction.
     

    AlliH

    Original Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Sep 6, 2018
    California resident and potential resale buyer here 🤚 What kind of perks are we talking? My husband and I just want a "cheaper" way to stay at Grand California each trip. I'm under the assumption that we must purchase a Grand California contract in order to use those points there ... yeah? Has more changed? 😵
     

    crvetter

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 26, 2018
    California resident and potential resale buyer here 🤚 What kind of perks are we talking? My husband and I just want a "cheaper" way to stay at Grand California each trip. I'm under the assumption that we must purchase a Grand California contract in order to use those points there ... yeah? Has more changed? 😵
    So at 11 months the owners of that particular resort can book at that resort. At 7 months all other eligible owners can book at that resort. What eligible owners mean is what has changed. Currently all L14 owners can book at all L14 resorts, resale or direct. What changed is that resale owners of L14 (who bought after a specific date) can't book new resorts starting with Riviera at 7 months and Riviera and new resorts can only book their resort ever.

    Now if you want to stay at the Grand Californian I would strongly recommend owning it through resale because at 7 months it will already be sold out for studios/2 bedrooms likely with 1 bedrooms being a tiny bit more available. It is easily the most popular DVC resort, and for sure the most popular at 7 months. As for any other perk that a resale member would have doesn't matter too much for someone using their points exclusively at VGC. Mostly because the biggest perk is discounted APs but those for DLR is only a savings of $20, the only other perk is that the discounts on dining but those are reproducible with an AP and certainly the savings on resale would dwarf them.
     

    AlliH

    Original Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Sep 6, 2018
    So at 11 months the owners of that particular resort can book at that resort. At 7 months all other eligible owners can book at that resort. What eligible owners mean is what has changed. Currently all L14 owners can book at all L14 resorts, resale or direct. What changed is that resale owners of L14 (who bought after a specific date) can't book new resorts starting with Riviera at 7 months and Riviera and new resorts can only book their resort ever.

    Now if you want to stay at the Grand Californian I would strongly recommend owning it through resale because at 7 months it will already be sold out for studios/2 bedrooms likely with 1 bedrooms being a tiny bit more available. It is easily the most popular DVC resort, and for sure the most popular at 7 months. As for any other perk that a resale member would have doesn't matter too much for someone using their points exclusively at VGC. Mostly because the biggest perk is discounted APs but those for DLR is only a savings of $20, the only other perk is that the discounts on dining but those are reproducible with an AP and certainly the savings on resale would dwarf them.
    Thanks! Okay, it's all still A LOT to wrap our heads around, but sounds like we have a decent understanding/plan. Thank you :)
     

    Donna M

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 8, 2008
    I don't look at it as second class. Everyone should know what they are buying. If someone wants the perks then they need to buy direct, simple. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
     

    SL6827

    Them, loving the lake. Me- not so much!
    Joined
    Apr 23, 2017
    I don't look at it as second class. Everyone should know what they are buying. If someone wants the perks then they need to buy direct, simple. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
    Exactly. It was and is a blessing for anyone to own it. Resale or not.
     

    Mike valera

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Oct 1, 2019
    I love all the members who think that because you make an opinion about perks that they didn't do any research. Like I said very happy with what I have. Just making a point that DVC has 2 different types of owners!
     

    CMNJ

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 8, 2014
    I’ve always looked at it this way. If you buy a car from a dealer they often throw in discounts on service, free inspections, etc to close the deal. If you buy elsewhere they are happy to service your car but they don’t give you discounts/freebies. When you sell your car the person you sell to also doesn’t get any freebies/discounts the dealer offered. They are only valid while you own your car. You get to weigh if buying from the dealer or getting a car elsewhere (where you save $) is the best option for you. You can’t then be mad that the dealer doesn’t give you the perks they give the people who bought from them. Of course this was all before the the new home resort restrictions at Riviera. That I think will detrimentally affect all owners and may blow up in Disney’s face.
     

    McCrae

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2009
    Because it’s real estate. Why should a developer in a subdivision care if homeowners sell? Rather, how can they not expect that?

    Resale is at best a little competition for DVC and a great boon for Disney otherwise. Every new resale owner is an enthusiastic purchaser of tickets, food, and trinkets replacing someone who is no longer interested in spending the cash. Disney should embrace resale as a machine for recycling spending enthusiasm.

    Except the DVC silo has it in their head that only the developer should ever sell in the neighborhood, and is making policy that is of marginal help to DVC at best, and detrimental to Disney overall.
    The extras are nothing to do with the Time Share rights you are buying. Owners at the same home resort are treated equally when it comes to booking the resort they own.
    The extra benefits are a thank you from Disney to customers who bought from them and can be stopped at anytime. When you buy resale you should know what your buying and if you don’t like it buy direct or don’t buy.
     

    Madame

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 15, 2014
    Owners at the same home resort are treated equally when it comes to booking the resort they own.
    Wait until they’re not. The POS at RIV opens the door for DVCMC to change the resale booking window. You think they won’t when over half the resort eventually becomes resale owners (in however many years that takes - a recession will quicken the pace) and now the 11mo window for certain times is a « walk your studio for 5 months or no studio for you » situation...?
     

    CanadaDisney05

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 20, 2017
    The extras are nothing to do with the Time Share rights you are buying. Owners at the same home resort are treated equally when it comes to booking the resort they own.
    The extra benefits are a thank you from Disney to customers who bought from them and can be stopped at anytime. When you buy resale you should know what your buying and if you don’t like it buy direct or don’t buy.
    I think there's a difference between the "blue card benefits" and the "resale restrictions". The resale restrictions are a fundamental change of the timeshare program, and effectively have a negative effect on current owners (lower's resale price). Future owner's atleast have the opportunity to go in with their eyes wide open.

    I agree that the "blue card benefits" are a thank you from Disney to customers who bought for them. They are funded through Disney's gross profit on direct purchases rather than maintenance fees, so there is no reason a resale owner should have access to these.
     

    RivShore

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Sep 27, 2019
    So what is the consensus on why Disney is adding restrictions?

    If they wanted to kill the resale market, they could just take everything back under ROFR and resell it themselves. There must be something more in their thinking.

    Even as a new direct owner, I see mostly positives with a healthy resale market - it helps keep the direct sale price stable, it removes an owner who wasn't using it anymore with an enthusiastic owner that will spend dollars at the parks, it saves all the trouble of foreclosing on an owner who can't pay dues any longer, etc. I just don't get why DVC would think an unhealthy resale market is a positive for anyone, including themselves.
     

    chalee94

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 14, 2006
    So what is the consensus on why Disney is adding restrictions?

    If they wanted to kill the resale market, they could just take everything back under ROFR and resell it themselves. There must be something more in their thinking.

    Even as a new direct owner, I see mostly positives with a healthy resale market - it helps keep the direct sale price stable, it removes an owner who wasn't using it anymore with an enthusiastic owner that will spend dollars at the parks, it saves all the trouble of foreclosing on an owner who can't pay dues any longer, etc. I just don't get why DVC would think an unhealthy resale market is a positive for anyone, including themselves.
    1) Disney wants to make direct sales more appealing (at least superficially).

    2) Disney has a lot of money but they don't actually have THAT much money (at least, to devote to holding timeshare inventory that may take months or longer to resell). Somebody has to pay the annual dues to run the resorts.

    3) Industry Standard for timeshares is for the developer to damage resale value until contracts sell for pennies on the dollar. You can buy some timeshares for a dollar on ebay that still cost thousands direct. Suckers will still walk by the kiosks at wdw without checking online to learn how Disney treats current owners. If they drive resale prices down considerably, that just means cheaper ROFR options when they want it.
     

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