Screaming children

[dlrhine]

I have to comment and probably shouldn't.
I have been taking my girls ages 3 and 2 currently to WDW since the first one was 10.5 months old and I was pregnant with the second. My first little one was the perfect little content baby and my second one can be set off in a heart beat. Why do I go to WDW you ask? It is about the only place where neither of them act up. There is so much for them to see and do that they behave very well, for the most part. I do however go with the idea that this is their trip not mine. I have rode the TTA 10 times in a row just because that is what they want to do, I've also done the same with small world. I don't get to do the big rides such as SM, Splash MT, or BTMRR, but you know what that is ok as long as they enjoy what they are seeing. We have spent countless hours letting them play in Mickey's toon town play yard, and just seeing characters. The one thing I don't try and do with the ages of my girls is sit down shows such at the Hall of Presidents, American Adventure etc. I know this will not interest them and make them fussy. And I also stick to naps at 1:00 just like at home and pay big bucks (all expense paid for her to have her own room, her airfare, passes etc. also) to take my Mom so the girls can go to bed at 8:00 and we can go out and have an adult evening. I have now that the second DD is born walked out of a lot of places and skipped a lot of things...but going to WDW is about them and what I know makes them happy...I have many years to enjoy what I want, I had my kids to enjoy what they want. For this reason also I don't make PS reservations I never know when they might get hungery or tried and then I'm also not bothering someone who wants a nice quite sitdown dinner. We do 3 character breakfasts and that is it cause I know they will enjoy them...after that it is all counter service so I can leave easy if there is a problem with one of my girls.
I do sympathise with parents who have a difficult child I've been blessed by one but doing the thing I've mentioned has made many trips to WDW with her possible. WE leave in 4.5 day for her 3rd trip this year.

Diane

 

[cstraub]

Do you understand that every child is different? The way the child is "raised" is not the only factor in how they act in public. If you can except that a child maybe be gifted in music, art, science, math, dancing etc.. then why can't you also beleive that a child can be "gifted " in screaming, throwing, kicking, crying, etc...? There is not a whole lot you can do to change a child's genetic personality.

Don't get me wrong, I keep a close eye on how my children act and reprimand them accordingly. I would not dream of letting my children disrupt someone's meal or anthing else for that matter. However, I have not been "blessed" as of yet with a difficult child.

Parenting is not easy. Maybe instead of rude stares and obnoxious remarks we should all be helping each other. You would not beleive how much more effective a smile is than a frown!!!! Even though a baby or toddler's screams may not be my favorite thing, I try to smile and let the parents know that I understand. Kids will be kids!! Walt Disney World is for "families"!! It's the one place we can go and let our kids be kids!

This is kid territory!! You may say Walt Disney WOrld is for everyone to enjoy but so is the 5 star French restraunt up the street from me. I don't take my young children there. Maybe you shouldn't go to WDW if you don't like the screams of children.

 

[RickinNYC]

doublepost. Sorry folks!

 

[RickinNYC]

Originally posted by cstraub
Do you understand that every child is different? The way the child is "raised" is not the only factor in how they act in public. If you can except that a child maybe be gifted in music, art, science, math, dancing etc.. then why can't you also beleive that a child can be "gifted " in screaming, throwing, kicking, crying, etc...? There is not a whole lot you can do to change a child's genetic personality.

Don't get me wrong, I keep a close eye on how my children act and reprimand them accordingly. I would not dream of letting my children disrupt someone's meal or anthing else for that matter. However, I have not been "blessed" as of yet with a difficult child.

Parenting is not easy. Maybe instead of rude stares and obnoxious remarks we should all be helping each other. You would not beleive how much more effective a smile is than a frown!!!! Even though a baby or toddler's screams may not be my favorite thing, I try to smile and let the parents know that I understand. Kids will be kids!! Walt Disney World is for "families"!! It's the one place we can go and let our kids be kids!

This is kid territory!! You may say Walt Disney WOrld is for everyone to enjoy but so is the 5 star French restraunt up the street from me. I don't take my young children there. Maybe you shouldn't go to WDW if you don't like the screams of children.

Nope, as much as we'd love to be dad's, unfortunately my partner and I don't have kids. But we're pretty intelligent guys and we know that all children are different. And we know that some kids are just going to kick, scream, and shout and be all around snots. We know that's the way life is. And don't be so insulting to think that you have to be a parent in order to know this. That's not only ridiculous but demeaning as to those that don't have children. Trust me, you do NOT corne the market on parenthood just because you have a child.

This thread is NOT about unruly children. It is about the parents who, either out of ignorance, rudeness, insensitivity or selfishness, choose not to watch over their children when they don't behave. They would rather let their little "precious" run about, screaming at the top of their lungs, kick the back of an airplane seat, slap someone thigh in a restaurant, shove others out of the way, do just about anything, than what a parent SHOULD do, which is to do his/her best to curtail this behavior. YOU KNOW THAT AS WELL AS I DO BASED UPON YOUR PRETTY SNOTTY POST.

And yes, sweetheart, Walt Disney World is for children AS MUCH AS IT'S FOR ALL FAMILIES OF ALL KINDS. Don't even dare to think otherwise.

Is this post rude? Sure and I refuse to apologize for it. I found your post to be incredibly self serving, obnoxious and down right rude.

 

[Goofydiane]

Originally posted by RickinNYC

This thread is NOT about unruly children. It is about the parents who, either out of ignorance, rudeness, insensitivity or selfishness, choose not to watch over their children when they don't behave. They would rather let their little "precious" run about, screaming at the top of their lungs, kick the back of an airplane seat, slap someone thigh in a restaurant, shove others out of the way, do just about anything, than what a parent SHOULD do, which is to do his/her best to curtail this behavior. YOU KNOW THAT AS WELL AS I DO BASED UPON YOUR PRETTY SNOTTY POST.

And yes, sweetheart, Walt Disney World is for children AS MUCH AS IT'S FOR ALL FAMILIES OF ALL KINDS. Don't even dare to think otherwise.

Is this post rude? Sure and I refuse to apologize for it. I found your post to be incredibly self serving, obnoxious and down right rude.

Rick, very well stated comments.

 

[Tigger&Belle]

The funny thing is that most of us agree on this general point, in spite of the attitudes that I've read. I don't take this thread as a slam on children being children. Yes, they act up sometimes, come with different personalities from other children, including their own siblings (how my 4 children can have 4 polar extremes in attitudes amazes me--doesn't seem possible based on the definition of polar, but they sure do) and some can have melt-downs at the drop of a hat.

What most people are saying is that the parents need to remove screaming children from a situation when they are bothering other paying guests. No, a kick on the back of the seat doesn't deserve a snide remark and we should all be respectful of each other, but as parents we should do what we can to let others have a good experience in a restaurant or show.

Goofydiane, if you are first asking the parents or the child (depending on the age of the child) nicely and lightheartedly to stop kicking the back of the seat and they blow you off and continue to do so, they deserve your frustration totally. There is no excuse for that. I thought that you started with a snide comment, which is why I said what I did. Sounds like you are already speaking up nicely and only get rude later. I can't say I blame you and I would do the same!

What we should all have a problem with is self-centered, obnoxious behavior from anyone. Last June I was at my 5th grade son's school clap-out (the ceremony for the kids leaving elem school). It was in a large, crowded gym at his school. There were a couple of adults that kept talking (the young kids with them were fine, BTW) throughout the ceremony. I found that very rude and several times tried to get them to be quiet, either by turning to them and saying it or finally giving them looks that could kill (we all know that look). I wasn't close enough to say more and was surprised that those sitting closer didn't say anything because it must have been bothering them even more. That was obnoxious behavior and people should know better.

T&B

 

[justhat]

Okay, WDW isn't just for the 'well-behaved' child, but for the 'terrors' as well. To say that you understand children fully before you become a parent is impossible. I thought I understood kids better than any parent when I was childless since I had worked at day camps, elementary schools, preschools, and recently finished graduate school with a doctorate in child psychology. The minute my daughter was born, a little over 6 months ago, I realized how little I actually knew about kids.

There really aren't any 'well-behaved' children, and thinking there are shows one of the things you learn when you have a child. Those children you see sitting quietly in their strollers as their parents roll them along may just be the same ones you see later throwing a fit in the Biergarten because Mom said she couldn't get the stuffed giraffe in Der Teddybar. Different things set off different kids and sometimes as a parent you don't know what that's going to be. Usually when my daughter is going to sleep she likes to be held close to me on the bed, with lots of hugs and kisses, yet sometimes if I kiss her she starts to scream and pushes me away. Why does she do that, maybe she's more tired that night, maybe she was comfortable and I moved her, maybe she just didn't want to be bothered. Who knows why and since she's 6 months old she can't tell me, but since there's no way for me to know that beforehand, I can't prevent the screaming fit that comes after it. As a child psychologist (who's currently a SAHM), people will be coming to me for advice on these issues and there's not really any solution.

It's possible that the kids you see acting out would be worse if the parent tried yelling at them, removing them, etc. Sometimes they just need to work through their own feelings on their own time. If we constantly help them act the way they are 'supposed' to, they will never learn how to modulate their feelings and behavior on their own. I'm not saying that if a child is jumping up and down screaming and throwing things that he should remain in the restaurant until his fit is over, but just giving you some insight as to why this might be the case. Some parents feel that if they give attention to a tantrum then it will only get worse or that the child will do it more, so they feel that by ignoring their child's tantrum, it will end faster and happen less frequently. This may not be true for all parents, but I know that's how some feel based upon my professional experience. Even those who do attend to their child's tantrum may have times when they just ignore them as well. If it's the hundreth tantrum the child has had that day, maybe they need a break from the screaming so they ignore it. I'm sorry that you then have to listen to it, but it's bound to happen when you're surrounded by millions of kids. If a family like that will ruin your meal, then don't vacation at a resort where there are millions of kids cause inevitably, their will be families like that.

As to kids kicking airplane seats, unfortunately I don't see a way around this one. As much as you might tell a kid to stop kicking the seat in front of them, short of tying their legs down the whole flight there's not much you can do if they continue to kick the seat anyway. It's not like there's anywhere to take them to remove them from the situation. Odds are this is one time when ignoring it will make it go away faster than fighting with the child to stop. Often time if they know you don't want them to do it, they will keep doing it. I've flown 5 times with my now 6 month old (for a total of 16 actual flights) and she's been silent on every flight but one, but on the one where she cried a few times we got plenty of glares from people around us, specifically the woman in front of my daughter's seat who couldn't recline her own seat ebcause my daughter's carseat was in her way. She even told me to move the carseat so she could recline, as though my daughter's safety comes 2nd to her comfort. She also then told me to take her out of the carseat and hold her when she started to cry. Well ya know what, parents don't want to see their child cry a lot more than the outsider doesn't as when my daughter cries I really feel bad for her that she's unhappy. However, there was a big storm and a really turbulent landing, so I wanted her to stay in her carseat even though it meant she was crying. She was sleepy and tired of being in the plane (we were delayed taking off due to the storm, had to circle before we could land, etc.). Well the landing was so bad that the pilot aborted it and flew back in the air and we detoured to another airport to refuel and wait out the storm. If it was bad enough for the pilot to decide it was too dangerous, I want my daughter in her carseat, even if that means that you can't nap or recline your seat.

For parents who narrate the show, I think it's so rude to tell them at the end that you want to go on every attraction with them to hear their version of the story. Little kids often need help understanding what's going on in a show, and if the narration bothers you, why not ask the parent to speak a little softer, explaining that it's interfering with your enjoyment of the show. I'm sure they'd oblige. My 2.5yo niece was afraid to see FotLK in AK, but we knew she'd like it so my SIL spent a good portion of the show explaining to her what was happening and why and what would happen next. I don't think she was talking too loud as I couldn't hear everything she said and was on the other side of my niece, but it's possible that the person in front of her could have been annoyed. No one said anything so we don't know. But anyway, FotLK ended up being my niece's favorite attraction in WDW. She saw it twice more during the trip and now, 4 months later, she still does that clapping routine from the 'Lion' section that they teach you during the show. So you can't say that if kids need the show narrated that they're too young, cause she needed help with it the first time, but loves it. We had a little kid in our section who screamed so loud during the parts wher eyou had to sound like a lion that everytime she did my then 3 month old daughter starting crying. After this happened 3 times, my husband took her outside for the rest of the show since she obviously didn't like the screaming kid. Do I think she should have been quieter, yes since my family's experience was dampened, however I would never have been rude to her family as she is just a child who was enjoying the show.

Personally, screaming kids don't bother me, even before I had my daughter. I can continue with my meal, show, etc. without a problem, especially at WDW since I go there with the expectation of seeing kids everywhere, even 'bad' ones. Almost every kid in the world has a meltdown at some point, some more than others, so given all the kids you see at one time in WDW you're bound so see quite a few of them. You should vacation there with that in mind, and if you don't think that way and think all parents should parent their kids in only the ways you approve of then you should vacation at an adults-only resort.

 

[Tigger&Belle]

justhat, I agree with most of your points, but I'll have to say that I don't totally understand children and I have 4 of them, grew up surrounded by children, whether it be neighbors or neices/nephews, have done daycare for years, etc.

I really don't take most of the posters comments as being negative to children. Maybe some of the expectations of the behavior of children is a little off, but I've seen, heard, and read that from a lot of parents (in various places, not just on this board, much less this thread).

Sometimes actual parents are worse because they have a child and think they know it all because their child (or children) are so easy and well behaved. I thought that I had a lot figured out when I had three children, then I had Jake.... lol

My third child was one of those (almost) perfectly well behaved children, up until he ws a good 5-6yo. I remember the one temper tantrum he had in public. He was a few years old and I was so surprised and wondered if he was possibly getting sick, which turns out he was. That's how rare it was for him to act up. He is now almost 11yo and can be rather mouthy (like me ) at times, but is still the hardest working, driven kid that I know. If he were my only child I would sure think that I had this whole parenting thing figured out.

It's funny to me that I can remember Zachary's one and only real temper tantrum since Jake has more outbursts in a day (ok, a week) than Zachary has had in his lifetime. By outbursts, I don't always mean full-blown temper tantrum, but more a great display of anger that doesn't fit the situation or that can be handled in a calmer way.

Still, I don't allow Jake to ruin another diners experience, even though I might let him have his tantrum in the grocery store while I'm basically ignoring it.

You're right about it being tough on an airplane, especially when they are forward facing in airplane seats and the seat in front of them is therefore so close to them. I've taken the baby/toddler's shoes off to help with that, but if we're talking about a young child they don't understand what they're doing and their safety is more important that bugging another person. And also, their seat is supposed to go in the window seat, so there is no moving them.

Still, that's no reason for another person to be nasty to either the child or the parent. It doesn't help the situation for sure.

Screaming children (others, not my own) have never really bothered me. I'm always just glad that they're not my own.

T&B

 

[justhat]

You're right about parents who have easy kids thinking they know everything about parenting, Tigger&Belle. Even my mom is guilty of that since she was blessed with great babies and easy kids (myself included). I, on the other hand, have quite the challenging, high-need daughter. She has changed my outlook on parenting in many ways. Everyone in WDW that saw her told me how perfect my baby is and I admit she was the perfect baby in WDW. She only cried once during 2 trips to WDW (at almost 3 months and almodt 4 months) and it was the time I mentioned at FotLK. At home, however, she's a different child. She cried EVERY time she was put down, even for a second. This included sleeping. So for 3 months she was held 24 hours a day, I even had to hold her while she slept! She's gotten much better, but she's in my arms as I type this. I remember a visit to my mom's for a week when she was 6 weeks old, when she cried everynight at 9:30pm, for no reason and despite anything you did, rocking, walking, swaddling, nursing, etc. My mom insisted it was something I was doing wrong, until she gave up after an hour of trying to get her to stop crying and said I never did anything like that. I can only hope that the challenging baby years will mean easier preschool years!

 

[Tigger&Belle]

Hmmm, challenging baby years mean easy toddler years? My nephew was a very high needs baby (colic big time) and was a difficult toddler and preschooler. He's now a young adult and is a wonderful young man, however those early years were not fun for my sister. That was before I had children, though, and now I can see that he probably really wasn't as difficult (and BRATTY) as I thought he was.

My experience with my own children has mixed results. My DD was rather high-strung as a baby. Being my firstborn I didn't know that it wouldn't kill her to cry for a few minutes while I did things like go to the bathroom. lol She is still, at 16yo, emotional and demanding. She's a good kid and doesn't get into real trouble, but just higher need.

My second was an easy going child un until he hit puberty. At almost 14yo he can be angry, but it seems to be age appropriate. Other times he's happy and easy going.

My third, the one who was such a perfectly well-behaved child with only one temper tantrum to his name was NOT an easy baby. He had reflux and asthma and obviously did not feel well as a baby. At about a year everything changed and he has been an all around nice kid to have around (not that he doesn't have his issues, they all do--he's the pickiest eater I've ever seen, etc).

Could be your daughter has something like this going on that she can't tell you about.

Now my most difficult child (my 4yo) was hands-down the easiest baby that I've ever seen. He was friendly, laughed all the time, and was a roly-poly bundle of joy. Then he turned 13 months old. OMG, things changed. I am so hoping that he will turn into an easier child once he's a little older. I joke and say that it's Gods way of making sure that I was done having children. It worked!!!

Your daughter is a doll! Just hang in there now with her and things will eventually pay off. I bet that she is a very alert baby who always wants to be on the go.

T&B

 

[Tigger&Belle]

BTW, my daughter's name is Alyssa. Where in the Washington DC area do you live? We're in Montgomery County, MD.

T&B

 

[justhat]

Thanks Tigger&Belle! I love the name Alyssa, and was skeptical about using it for her middle name since it was the only name other than Madison that I liked that my husband agreed on. So if we have another girl she's going to be nameless. We live in West End/Foggy Bottom. 23rd and M Streets. I love the area-very centrally located, especially since my husband is in medical school at GW. My daughter was born there too and we actually walked to the hospital when I was in labor.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) my daughter doesn't have reflux. She's the happiest baby in the world as long as she's being held. (aside from about 5 weeks to 10 weeks when she'd cry everynight at 9:30) And you're right, she has always been a very alert, active baby. In the hospital all the nurses kept telling me she was so alert, little did I know what that would mean once I got home! She was rolling over both ways by 3.5 months, sitting up and crawling backwards at 5 months, and pulling to stand right before she turned 6 months. Even as a newborn she didn't sleep much, mostly cause she'd wake up as soon as I put her down and stay up for awhile. I didn't mind holding her all the time since she's my only baby right now so I have a lot of time, it just meant nothing else got done. Now that she wants to be on the floor a lot, I can't let her unless I sit right next to her cause she can pull herself to stand up, but doesn't realize she needs to hold on or she'll fall! But she does play by herself much more now that she can move around, so I'm
hoping things continue to get easier, of course that is until she turns 2!

 

[lenshanem]

Just a warning justhat, my youngest who is my challenging one was also very early to do most of the physical type stuff. She was a miniature Houdini. Wriggled her way out of car seats, high chairs, pushing chairs up to the counter to crawl up on them, etc.

Good luck! It gets even tougher!

Like T&B I take this as a sign from God we shouldn't have more kids. We had planned on three until this little handful came along...

Luckily she is adventurous enough to do things with hubby since my oldest is very girly. This last trip to WDW my 3 year old was BARELY tall enough for some of those rides, but LOVED them. She rode Dinosaur twice and I think she would have rode it all day long if we let her. (Meanwhile my oldest at 6 was having a heart attack cause she walked thru the preshow to get to the child swap part...)

 

[justhat]

My husband and I are planning on 4 of them, but after a few months with Madison my mom asked me if I still want 4. I do, though if the next 2 are as needy we may stop at 3. Like I said, I loved holding my baby all day long, but I have nothing else to do right now but be a mommy. Once I get to #2 and 3, I'll have older kids to care for too so holding a needy baby all day simply won't be an option. With that said, I wouldn't change a thing about Madison's personality, I love her more than I ever thought I could love someone, but I do hope that the next few babies are a bit easier. (My mom tells me I should try to make her less 'fearful', since she thinks that's why Madison likes to be held, cause she's 'afraid she'll be abandoned' if I put her down. She seems pretty fearless to me with the activities she tries, but I have no plans on trying to change her personality either way.)

 

[KathAnn]

Morning folks!

I've been reading the replies from Tigger&Belle, Justhat etc and I wondered if anyone can help me. You probably saw my earlier post about the horrendous shopping trip - well, we've ALL calmed down a lot since then and although my sister's still angry about it, I've stood my ground, said what I wanted to (as nicely and delicately as I could) and have now let the subject drop.

My question is: Does anyone have ANY idea why Courteney should turn from a happy, bubbly cheerful little toddler into a hissing, spitting and now biting terror? She's almost been banned from her nursery as her behaviour gets so bad at times and I find it quite worrying. Do children grow out of this?

Jess is hoping to take Courtey to Disney in Paris for Easter 2005 - she'll not be 3 then (birthday is 4 July). Is this too young, or about right for a first experience?? Advice, help, encouragement and (useful!) criticism from ALL parents here is most welcome.

Thanks

 

[WDWguru]

Great post, Rick!

As for the "nowhere else to go" on a plane thing... that may be true but it's still no excuse for not stopping the kicking. No you can't tie their legs down, but you can bring them activities or engage them in some way to distract them from the kicking. I've found with my nephews that it is usually a symptom of boredom and once distracted with something to do, they forget about the kicking and never go back to it.

 

[SuzieQMomof3]

Here's my .02 for those with kids who switch from angel to less-than-so in a heartbeat: take him/her to the doctor. If your child is acting up unreasonably for no clear reason, the answer is probably medical. Kids don't know how to tell you that something hurts or they are tired, they just get grumpy. Have the child's hearing tested at the very least and see about having her sleeping habits tested.

I have 4 kids and I know personalities are different, but children shouldn't be so unhappy for "no good reason."

 

[Tigger&Belle]

Originally posted by KathAnn
My question is: Does anyone have ANY idea why Courteney should turn from a happy, bubbly cheerful little toddler into a hissing, spitting and now biting terror? She's almost been banned from her nursery as her behaviour gets so bad at times and I find it quite worrying. Do children grow out of this?

Jess is hoping to take Courtey to Disney in Paris for Easter 2005 - she'll not be 3 then (birthday is 4 July). Is this too young, or about right for a first experience?? Advice, help, encouragement and (useful!) criticism from ALL parents here is most welcome.

Thanks

There must be more going on with Courteney if she is having problems at her nursery school. Are there any changes that have gone on in her life recently? Is this a full-time type daycare? Could be too much time away from her mom if it is, especially if her mom doesn't even want to be bothered with her when they are together, as the shopping trip would lead me to believe.

Of course when the aliens invade a childs body at around 2 years old they do tend to act his way, but it seems like it might be more than that with her.

T&B

 

[KathAnn]

Thanks Tigger&Belle

Courtey's only ever gone to nursery part-time (9am till Noon for 3 days) and Jess is a helper there too. Liam (Dad) hasn't changed routine either. Courtey now bites, kicks or hits other children if she doesn't get her way and the nursery workers describe her as "sometimes uncontrollable". Paediatrician says she's fine for a 2 year old and to ignore the outbursts as she'll grow out of them. But she's also been a little sweetheart too and can be very loving and affectionate. Incidentally, she doesn't throw a tantrum or run around like mad when Grandad's around. She follows him around like a sweet puppy, hangs on his every word, and always wants to sit on his lap for her snacks and bedtime story. She even knows how to speed dial the phone to get him!

One thing that has changed is they moved to a new house. The "old" place was way too small for 2 adults and one growing toddler and they moved to their new house about 7 months ago.

Maybe I should take a pace or two back, calm down a lot, and remember that I DO love all of them.

 

[Tigger&Belle]

Could be just normal toddler behavior changes or she could be reacting to the move or something else that you aren't aware of. Moves are very stressful, even ones that adults look forward to. If she's not impossible with everyone then I would be less concerned.

Yes, remember that you do love all involved and try not to take her behavior too personally.

Maybe try to find times to spend with her on YOUR terms (ie, not watching her while her mom shops unless you stay home with her and maybe bring her to the playgound, make cookies with her, etc, while her mom goes shopping. In other words, try to forge a relationship with your niece doing something that the two of you will enjoy together. She's a little young for it to be anything too complicated, but take something that you like to do and scale it down so she can "help" you.

I used to cook with my nieces and nephews (I was in high school at the time) and my mother thought it was silly since I could do it faster myself, but the kids loved visiting me.

I've never had a biter, but I used to do daycare for one and it's a tough one. That obviously can't be tolerated for health reasons, but the "regular" tantrums are a different thing.

T&B