Scrappers - what to do with them...?

[cyiland]

It's only in the past couple of months that I really became aware of the vastness of the Disney "pin culture", including the scrapper "phenomenon".

There's no lack of discussion about what to do with scrappers:

1) Ethically, at least some of us are of the mindset that you just can't keep them in circulation. Even if you never intended to end up with scrappers, trading them at the parks just means you're handing your bad luck to someone else.

2) There's certainly a frustration that those at Disney are turning a blind eye to the scrapper problem, which just allows the problem to grow.

So what to do? Well, I've been thinking about this. This idea is by no means perfect, but I think it would help. I'm interested in feedback. Here goes:

I'm suggesting a "code of ethics" for both sellers and buyers, along with a plan that might FORCE some Disney attention to the problem.

1) Sellers would "join" an organization, in which they would subscribe to a code of ethics. Through this code, they would commit to selling only pins known to have originated from a Disney source, or at a minimum, to not knowingly selling any scrapper or otherwise counterfeit pins, not selling pins that are not tradeable with CM's, etc. They would also commit to exchanging or refunding any pins questioned by a purchaser.

2) Buyers would also "join" this same organization. Buyers would commit to becoming educated about the problem of scrappers, and not trading (or selling) any pin that they believe to be a scrapper.

3) Now for the plan to FORCE Disney's hand a bit on this: Organization members would send their unwanted scrapper pins in to the organization. Initially, I considered saying that the organization would then dispose of the pins. But that's silly: we could all accomplish the same thing by just throwing the pins away. So instead, let's use those problem pins to our ADVANTAGE: by collecting the pins with a goal of, say, 100,000 pins, we can create a huge display. I'm talking about something along the lines of a 50' by 50' display of phony pins. The goal of this display would be to attract media attention to the damage done to unsuspecting collectors (including young kids) who unknowingly spend their good money (or trade their good pins) for these bad pins. I'd think THAT could get some attention that would "encourage" Disney to protect the interest of their pin-trading fans.

So what do you all think of this plan? I'm serious about this, think it has merit, and would be willing to head the effort, if others agree.

Other considerations:

* if ethical sellers were to support our efforts through pin or monetary donations, perhaps we could have a "trade in" program, where for a certain number of scrappers, you'd get a "good" pin. Or we'd do some type of drawing.

* The incoming pin quantities would be tracked. As pins are received, the contributor's name/city/state could be posted online, along with a number of pins they've contributed. This would maintain a public record of contributed pins, and serve to keep all "accountable".

* If this were to go forward, it would obviously need to be with the support and involvement of the Disney pin trading community. If you are in that community and would be willing to assist in this, please contact with a private message. I'll provide my email address, and we can take that discussion off the list.

I feel like this is a way to take back this issue from the scrappers, and to use a public forum to encourage Disney's help and involvement. Individuals saying they've received a couple of bad pins don't carry much weight. Maybe 100,000 scrapper pins at once, coming from several thousand (or 10's of thousands of) pin collectors might just give us a voice.

So what do you think? Who's in?

 

[Roxane]

The simple fact is that Disney just doesn't care. They have their pins made in China because it's cheap. If they cared that China doesn't care about copyright and sells them by the thousands to anyone, they would have taken their buisness away long ago.

IMHO, the only way to aviod scrappers is to education. If people know they are seeing a scrapper, they won't trade for it. I trade with CMs at WDW every weekend, and if I had a dollar for every scrapper I've seen on a lanyard, I could pay for my AP for the rest of my life.

 

[cyiland]

The simple fact is that Disney just doesn't care. They have their pins made in China because it's cheap. If they cared that China doesn't care about copyright and sells them by the thousands to anyone, they would have taken their buisness away long ago.

IMHO, the only way to aviod scrappers is to education. If people know they are seeing a scrapper, they won't trade for it. I trade with CMs at WDW every weekend, and if I had a dollar for every scrapper I've seen on a lanyard, I could pay for my AP for the rest of my life.

Roxane, I understand your frustration, and certainly agree with the point about "education" being an important element.

Still, education can't be a successful strategy on it's own, because we'll ALWAYS be cleaning up the problem. Like me a short time ago, those new to pin collecting will start without any knowledge of these knockoffs from China. Until they've just found themselves the owners of 50 or 100 sub-quality eBay-acquired plastic-bag scrappers that stink of turpentine, they won't know better. Even then, they may not catch on enough to look into it.

You said, "the simple fact is that Disney just doesn't care". When reading that, my thoughts went straight to WDW's original plans for a public celebration of Epcot's 25th anniversary: they had none. BUT... when an online group assembled, showed that they had strength in numbers, and basically said, "whatever, Disney, WE are going to celebrate, and YOU are going to look like sticks-in-the-mud", Disney took notice.

WHY did Disney take notice? I don't think it was to appease a couple of hundred people (actually over 1,200 showed up for the eventual rededication ceremony, which was AWESOME). I believe it was because they saw two things: (1) a small group that was passionate enough that they (Disney) decided maybe they had missed the boat, and (2) (and I believe more importantly) they realized the bad publicity that would come from a large group doing something on their own that you'd have expected Disney to handle.

If as a community, our attitude is "Disney just doesn't care, so we'll just quietly live with it", then I think Disney is probably somewhat justified in turning the other cheek as they have. After all, if WE aren't upset enough to do something about it, then really, the only entity being HARMED is Disney itself (via potential lost revenues)

This month's Consumer Reports magazine has a story on counterfeit products. It talks about how companies work to keep their corporate image clean. Do you think Disney would want next month's issue to say, "but Disney isn't one of those companies that's concerned about the quality of the products that their intended customers receive. In fact, it's so bad in the Magic Kingdom that little kids routinely walk into a Disney shop, purchase a $6.50 pin, and then trade it with a cast member for a (sub-par quality) counterfeit pin the cast member had received earlier that very day. And yet Disney turns a blind eye to the counterfeit pin industry that has developed..."? I DON'T THINK SO!

Does no one else have an opinion on this?

 

[FigNewton]

Ok, I understand the concern over the whole scrapper issue. Honestly, I do. It wasn't long ago that I was pouring over my pin bag trying to figure out if any of them were bad. And I was driving myself crazy to no real end.

Personally I don't think the scrapper problem is as bad as the Cutie or Sedesma problem. Should scrappers be out there? No. But most of the time you can't tell the difference, and what's more, they're made by the same people that make the "real" pins. For all intents and purposes they are the real thing.

Most of the time, I'd take a scrapper over a sedesma or a cutie.

My advice is this: don't drive yourself crazy over it. The distinction between a scrapper and a so-called real pin is often so tiny that it takes a real expert to point out the difference. And when you're generally talking a $3 pin, is it really worth the effort?

 

[cyiland]

For me, it's a quality problem (when it's obvious), but it's an ETHICS problem well beyond that. While I'd LIKE Disney to care, I'm vehemently opposed to funding an illegitimate industry. Even if the pins were "1st rate", it's not right for some guy to be importing $.50 pins and selling them as legit Disney pins. Disney doesn't care? I do! I also won't pay someone to provide me with a illegally copied music CD, just because the artist doesn't really care to pursue a single rights infringement. Do I blame the Chinese importer? A little. I blame the guy purchasing from them, and then representing himself as an "avid pin trader" more, though. And no amount of EDUCATION is going to stop that guy. Only ENFORCEMENT.

Sure, I can enjoy a pin, even if it's not quite right... but not if I know there's someone out there improperly profiting from it, and causing an LE100 pin to be highly available. How many do you want?

 

[Luv2Roam]

I agree with FigNewton.

 

[theparsons]

Excuse a semi-newbie's naive questions....but how do you know if you have a "scrapper"? reading this thread, I'm taking the term scrapper to mean it's a pin made by the same manufacturer as the real ones, but apparently it's sold to a reseller (I'll venture to guess those guys on ebay selling lots of several hundred pins for $1.50 each?....and I'll admit I have bought these lots!).

But...if they're made by the same manufacturer, is there even a way to know which are legit and which were made without Disney's permission? Sounds like a dumb manufacturer if they made some slight difference???

And those who get angry with people for trading these.....please remember that not all of us are experts. Education sounds like a very good idea, because when I first started collecting pins (and trading) I was very uneducated....and probably still am, for that matter. In fact it took me months before I even saw a Sedesma and understood how/why it was different. I wouldn't ever try to give one to a CM because I know it's against the rules, but I've seen them on CM's lanyards before and have actually traded to GET it.....because I liked the pin and that's what my personal collection is about. I have two that are Prince pins that I've never seen elsewhere and while the quality is obviously not as good, I still love them. They're unique. I have no clue what a cutsie is, but I'll probably ask some of the pin trader CMs in January when I'm at WDW so I have a clue, lol.

 

[FigNewton]

For theparsons:

Generally the only way to tell if a pin is a scrapper is by sitting it right next to a "real" pin. True scrappers are pins which were made off-spec and by all rights should be destroyed, or reworked if possible. The scrappers term has also spread to pins which have been made outside of the ones ordered by Disney, but still made by the original manufacturer. Others have even used the term to refer to outright bootlegs (complete fakes made by people merely reproducing them on their own).

We were speaking to one cast member who saw that my wife was wearing one of the new lanyard pins she'd found earlier in the day: Stitch Driving (#56893 on pinpics). She said, "Oh let me see if you have the real one or the fake on." After examining it she says, "I think you have the real one." Yes, she is the one that stressed the word think. I asked her how she could tell, and all she said was "the tongue." I believe what she was referring to was the colored portion of his lower mouth, as the pin does not display the tongue. Regardless, here was someone who claimed to have some knowledge of both the real ones and the fake ones. And even she couldn't really tell.

So I sorta wash my hands of all of it. As long as it looks like a decent quality pin, and it's a pin I want, I'll be happy with it.

 

[theparsons]

So I sorta wash my hands of all of it. As long as it looks like a decent quality pin, and it's a pin I want, I'll be happy with it.

Amen to that! If the experts, and the CMs can't tell the difference, I certainly have no chance. I look at the pin for something that attracts me...I definitely don't scruntize each one....in fact often I've looked at a pin several different times and see something different in it each time. So I'm doomed at the thought of finding something like a tongue that is or isn't right.

Thanks for the great explanation though...now when some CM asks me if it's real or not, I won't feel scared or shocked!

 

[GrillMouster]

FigNewton's right on the money. I've scrutinized the pins for sale at the parks and found that many of them had the same imperfections that are supposed to be identifyers for scrappers, such as uneven fill, pooling, tiny spots of missing color, and smearing in the enamel. I've even found pins on the sale racks with a back stamp that is at an angle (not level). So, now, when I see only one slight imperfection in a CM's lanyard pin, I give it the benefit of the doubt. I still check my new acquisitions on pinpics for glaring errors.

I've been fortunate not to have any pins that I think are scrappers, so I can't say for sure what I would do with a known scrapper. If it were really attractive, I'd likely keep it. Otherwise, I'd I'd throw it away. I get my trader pins from a reputable source. I know for a fact that every pin from this seller is legitimate (no scrappers, no sedesmas). If I were to get a scrapper as a result of a trade, it's no big deal, because it only cost me a $2.20 trader.