School shooting in CO

I'm not fearful, I am morally opposed to guns.

I'm not sure how someone can be morally opposed to an inanimate object. Opposed to how it's sometimes used? Okay ;) But, if a gun is used to punch a hole in a piece of paper, it is a tool. And if a hammer is used to bash in a skull, it is a weapon. It's the use of the object that defines it as a weapon or not.
 
Interesting but I don't see how that applies to people who own guns for protection, or sport. :confused3

I can see the pacifist thing from the protection POV. A pacifist wouldn't fight back. Sport OTOH, I'm there with ya.
 
Interesting but I don't see how that applies to people who own guns for protection, or sport. :confused3

Well, there is not much I can do about what you see or understand per the rules of the board, but many faith traditions ascribe to a culture of pacifism and those that do typically do not recognize the exceptions you cite.
 

I can see the pacifist thing from the protection POV. A pacifist wouldn't fight back. Sport OTOH, I'm there with ya.

But to not let your child into the home of someone who would fight back though? I could understand not wanting your kids to be in the home of a gang banger with illegal firearms, or not wanting them to be in the home of a gun owner because it guarantees their safety (against being accidentally or purposely shot at someone elses home)
He said it wasn't about the guarantee though, it was about his values.
I don't know anyone who wouldn't fight back when it came to the protection of ones family, whether it be with a firearm, another weapon or your own hands so I guess I just don't get it. :confused3
 
I'm not sure how someone can be morally opposed to an inanimate object. Opposed to how it's sometimes used? Okay ;) But, if a gun is used to punch a hole in a piece of paper, it is a tool. And if a hammer is used to bash in a skull, it is a weapon. It's the use of the object that defines it as a weapon or not.

Like I said, it's too complicated to explain while staying within the rules but I guess I can only assure you that it's a very well thought out position on my part and one I'm not likely to deviate from in the future.
 
Well, there is not much I can do about what you see or understand per the rules of the board, but many faith traditions ascribe to a culture of pacifism and those that do typically do not recognize the exceptions you cite.

Thanks for trying to explain, and I understand you can't really go into detail. That is a shame, I find it very interesting and would love to be able to discuss it so I could better understand where you are coming from :)
 
But to not let your child into the home of someone who would fight back though? I could understand not wanting your kids to be in the home of a gang banger with illegal firearms, or not wanting them to be in the home of a gun owner because it guarantees their safety (against being accidentally or purposely shot at someone elses home) He said it wasn't about the guarantee though, it was about his values. I don't know anyone who wouldn't fight back when it came to the protection of ones family, whether it be with a firearm, another weapon or your own hands so I guess I just don't get it. :confused3

You are correct, you don't understand my values. I am not a perfect person, but I think violence can be prevented and violence that exists is a construct of man. I'd rather work against violence than prepare for it.
 
I think these are fair points, though I disagree with some of them.

First, you're right that well-regulated has several meanings, although the most probable definition for the later eighteenth century means ordered. And ordered in turn means both working and moderated. However, the more important point is how the Supreme Court sees it; judicial precedent over the past 150 years has indicated well-regulated means that some impositions can be imposed. For example, you can't buy a bazooka (this is an extreme case, obviously). The government has the right to restrict that, according to the courts.

Well, I think that's kind of an apples & oranges comparison. But, you're not really wrong.

I don't disagree that hunting licenses may have more rules than car licenses. But you're perfectly able to own a gun in your house without having a hunting license. What I was proposing is a license in order to buy a gun, not just use it to hunt. And to get that license, a brief course on gun safety, gun handling, and a serious background check.

No, I know that's what you're suggesting. But, you're also perfectly legal to own a car at your home without any sort of license whatsoever. Only the use of each is regulated universally, not ownership.

But, also know that's not the point you're trying to make. You believe the regulations should be strengthened, and you're perfectly within your rights to believe so.

As for background checks, most gun owners (and potential owners) are not opposed to them "in theory". That's why there was little opposition to the change in the law in the 90's applying the instant background check to all transactions involving dealers. The problem is there is no way to enforce that in the used market unless everyone registers all their guns. I mean seriously, if "Bob" (a non-dealer) sells his gun to "Jim" (also a non-dealer), how do we prove the transaction took place? And how do we prove a background check took place? It can't be proved without a record of some sort. And that's where the opposition stems. Because everywhere registration has existed, confiscation eventually resulted.

I don't think that Chicago gun crime is due solely to the ability to buy legal guns in suburban Cook County. (I think it has a lot more to do with socio-economic problems and a gun culture--combined with easy access to guns.) What I was saying is that holding Chicago up as a failed case for gun control isn't particularly fair; there may be strict gun control in Chicago, but the city's suburbs are little regulated. My whole argument is that it's more complicated than just gun control or culture or mental health or poverty--it's a dangerous cocktail of all of these.

It is.

Australia's gun crime has fluctuated, but it's still way below ours. As I said, I don't think it would have the same effect in America. But I do think that sticking our fingers in our ears and doing nothing hasn't accomplished much, so we should start trying to come together in the middle to get something done. If gun rights people could accept restrictions, and gun control people could accept that people want to own guns in some capacity, I think there is a rough bit of middle ground.

Part of the problem here stems from the fact that those who stand up and argue for "reasonable controls" are typically the absolute zealots who are on record as saying they'd be happy to ban ALL private ownership of ALL guns. Nobody wants to compromise with someone who has already made it a point of saying they don't agree you should have the rights you have.

The second problem is the "reasonable controls" suggested are almost always completely ridiculous if you know anything at all about guns and how they function. And that's the point. They count on people who know nothing about guns to get behind these ideas, and they count on these same people to be completely shocked that anyone would oppose such ideas. Almost all the gun-specific controls that have been proposed and/or passed in the past 2 decades have absolutely zero to do with how a gun actually functions, and mostly address how it LOOKS. Seriously, we go after things like pistol grips and flash suppressors - things that are strictly cosmetic. It's like saying you can't paint a number on the side of your car because that would make it a racecar that is not safe for operation on public roads. In some cases, they've even targeted specific models of rifles while omitting the same model of the same rifle if it is chambered in a LARGER (MORE powerful) caliber. Completely ridiculous. And it's hard to compromise with such nonsense.

I do agree you can't just fail to explore all options - same goes for the idea of arming staff at schools. Maybe it's a bad idea some places; maybe it's a bad idea ALL places. But to completely dismiss it because it's not the direction you'd choose is short-sighted at best.

But do you know what happened after Newtown? The gun first reported to be used, the Bushmaster, saw its sales skyrocket. Sales are up almost a third this year. People didn't move away from violence, they moved towards it. They were worried there was going to be a restriction, and instead of thinking about how they might engage in that debate, they decided to grab the semi-automatic gun used in the shooting. They didn't move away from violence, they moved towards it. I understand why they did it, I get the rhetoric, but I find it really disturbing.

Well, I wouldn't say it's moving "toward violence" in as much as trying to grab what they're afraid they may one day not be able to own. And the fears turned out to be real as there was (as you know) a very real attempt to outlaw such guns while at the same time leaving other guns that function EXACTLY the same way legal.

But, I do have to say there is no bigger gun salesman than the anti-gun politician of the moment (whenever the moment is). The AR15 was a joke among gun enthusiasts 20 years ago. Nobody wanted one, and frankly most of them were kind of junk. Now, people are plunking down $2,500 for a good one just as fast as they can be built. Why? The 1994 AWB made them "cool". There is nothing more desirable than that which you cannot have. And nobody benefitted more from that law than the manufacturers. Same for all the local laws passed since. Most of these are simply "feel good" laws with no teeth, and frankly somewhat appear to have been designed by the gun industry for the express purpose of selling more guns (most of which are manufactured in the "Blue" states of the Northeast, BTW). It makes one wonder. I can just hear the marketing meeting now:

Hey Bob, we're backed up on model ABC. How do you plan to move these things.

Well Jim, maybe we can get the folks in DC to propose a ban.....

:rotfl:
 
Per the purchase of the guns used skyrocketing, all gun sales have skyrocketed out of the fear that zealots will make laws forbidding the ownership. Gun retailers ought to vote Obama "salesman of the year".
 
Per the purchase of the guns used skyrocketing, all gun sales have skyrocketed out of the fear that zealots will make laws forbidding the ownership. Gun retailers ought to vote Obama "salesman of the year".

I remember going into a Cabela's many months back and the handgun section was 90% empty - no display guns, nothing. Anything that held 10+ rounds was GONE. That just doesn't happen, generally speaking. Priced a gun with a local guy and he said he couldn't even guess when it might be available. Said he had 2 of them on order for at least 5 months each. Normal ship time is a week. It's gotten better of late, but ammo is still in VERY short supply.
 
I remember going into a Cabela's many months back and the handgun section was 90% empty - no display guns, nothing. Anything that held 10+ rounds was GONE. That just doesn't happen, generally speaking. Priced a gun with a local guy and he said he couldn't even guess when it might be available. Said he had 2 of them on order for at least 5 months each. Normal ship time is a week. It's gotten better of late, but ammo is still in VERY short supply.

Just to add on to the short supply ---

It's not just the public that has had an impact on the lack of guns and ammo. That's as far as I'll go on that end, but those that have kept up with the news know there is more to the story.

Excellent points made earlier, Gumbo 4x4.
 
You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Like I said apparently you know our officers more than we do. Have at it!


No I'm arguing because I get tired of people who live in one city talking for Canada as a whole.
 
Just to add on to the short supply ---

It's not just the public that has had an impact on the lack of guns and ammo. That's as far as I'll go on that end, but those that have kept up with the news know there is more to the story.

Excellent points made earlier, Gumbo 4x4.

::yes::
 
People die for all sorts of reasons. I would be much more afraid for my children to be in a home with alcoholics than a family who owned a gun.

I am another who will not be in someone's home with a gun (with some exceptions like a police officer or a person who shoots trap or skeet).

Please realize this is my personal opinion but I do not believe the second amendment has been interpreted correctly as the founders intended.

I also believe violence begets violence.

And I know this will bother some, and is MY opinion only and why I am not friends with most gun owners or any hunters but I think there is something damaged about people who like to kill animals. It bothers me greatly.
 
I am another who will not be in someone's home with a gun (with some exceptions like a police officer or a person who shoots trap or skeet).

Please realize this is my personal opinion but I do not believe the second amendment has been interpreted correctly as the founders intended.

I also believe violence begets violence.

And I know this will bother some, and is MY opinion only and why I am not friends with most gun owners or any hunters but I think there is something damaged about people who like to kill animals. It bothers me greatly.

Are you a vegan?
 
Please realize this is my personal opinion but I do not believe the second amendment has been interpreted correctly as the founders intended.

There's been much research on this and there is no doubt the founders intended all private citizens to be armed. There are numerous writings by all of them to back this up. There's also no doubt that the militia referred to in the 2nd Amendment has zero to do with any gov't formed military unit. It refers to all able-bodied men capable of taking up arms either for or against the US Gov't. Like all the amendments that refer to the rights of the people, the 2nd amendment is (and was intended as) an individual right. And if anything, the founding fathers were they to be magically transported to today with their 1776 minds intact would in all likelihood insist private citizens be granted access to any and all modern weapons, right up through aircraft carriers and bombs. And really, we don't need lawyers, judges, or professors to determine that the 2nd amendment is an individual right. Ask any 3rd grade teacher who knows how to diagram a sentence to interpret it. :)
 
I remember going into a Cabela's many months back and the handgun section was 90% empty - no display guns, nothing. Anything that held 10+ rounds was GONE. That just doesn't happen, generally speaking. Priced a gun with a local guy and he said he couldn't even guess when it might be available. Said he had 2 of them on order for at least 5 months each. Normal ship time is a week. It's gotten better of late, but ammo is still in VERY short supply.

We used to be able to ping all day long in a $10 box of .22's. With a scope they can shoot anything. I don't care for one so I can not hit an aspirin from way back.

Violence may beget violence. But there is not any violence going on at our place so it is rather silly to say about other people because of a harmless hobby.
 
We used to be able to ping all day long in a $10 box of .22's. With a scope they can shoot anything. I don't care for one so I can not hit an aspirin from way back.

Violence may beget violence. But there is not any violence going on at our place so it is rather silly to say about other people because of a harmless hobby.

I really wonder what people like the pp think goes on in the homes of gun owners.
 


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