Say Goodbye to the Auction Scene in Pirates

[VandVsmama]

Individuals who are offended by a particular attraction at any particular theme park should NOT go on that attraction.

 

[Gisele]

I didn't suggest it, the poster I was quoting flat out said it.

What you are saying is something I don't understand. You seem to be saying that I have no right to contract my experience of the world with others who have shared their experiences here, which, whatever. You also seem to be saying that someone who has experience with violence would somehow blank out while riding PoTC or at least their minds would refuse to let them understand what is really happening in the ride. That may well be true, but that simply demonstrates the truth of my own point, which is that I perceive the world in a vastly different way than that person does.

Whatever the reason someone may not realize what is happening in that scene, it does not change objective fact: women are tied up and crying because they are being sold as slaves to men who intend to force themselves sexually on the women. That's a simple fact.

Well when these stupid changes take place you should enjoy the ride more then. Enjoy!

Perhaps if we examine the issue from another direction:

1. Create a list of all offensive things at DLR. Pick one that is the absolute worst and therefore should be changed. Wouldn't the rape scene be the one you pick to change?

2. If the rape scene is not too offensive to deserve a change, what would be? A bunch of little boys who are tied up and crying because they are being taken to a priest to be molested? Is there anything beyond "ha ha, look at those women crying because they don't want to be enslaved and raped" that could possibly make you think that maybe a little retouching might be in order?

3. What if they were changing it to add in more squid face guy? Would that be an acceptable modernizing of the ride to account for popular new characters? Or would that still be too PC?

4. If that still would be too PC, what if they add in a scene where the pirates are arguing over who gets to rape the squid face guy first? That change would seem to have the two things people on this board love most: updated ride content and implied rape.

For these scenarios let's limit ourselves to things that are real. Flying elephants are not real, and ghosts are not real, but women being raped while people laugh about it or dismiss it as no big deal is a real thing.

When you plan your own amusement park, you may choose how to run it.
I do not approve of this change to POTC at all. It makes me upset and angry. Once my AP is done, I will most likely not be returning to DLR. Too many changes over time too, that I just can't stand, and now this change too!

 

[GatorChris]

So does that mean he's the person who drafted the original version of the ride, where a woman was hiding in the barrel and the pirate was saying he intends to rape her (hoist his colors) and he will share her with anyone who helps find her? That part seems like it would have been harsh even all those decades ago when the ride was created, but it certainly is not in keeping with how people are today. So I'm not sure his views should mean all that much today.

But there is no doubt that the movie franchise made the pirates into the good guys, so the "Boy Scouts" criticism probably should be placed there. The ride is merely following suit.

PIRATES. ARE. BAAAAADDDDDDD!!!!!!! That's what the story of the ride is showing and has always shown and always should be shown.

 

[minnieralyks]

According to the rumor mill, there's going to be a new song to accompany the more family-friendly vibe that Disney's trying to send out. I guess it's supposed to follow the same tune...


Cleaned up version:
Yo ho, yo ho, a law abiding citizen's life for me.
We purvey our assets to those less astute
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
We fix and respect and care acute
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.

Yo ho, yo ho, a law abiding citizen's life for me.
We gently take, saying please and thank
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
Hug, and kiss, and really don't stank.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.

Yo ho, yo ho, a law abiding citizen's life for me.
We quip and love and really de-light.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
We learn in history, we're really so bright!
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.

We're devils in dance, rascals in respect
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
We're angels and cordial and really reflect
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.

We're givers and lovers and do-gooders,
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
Aye, yes we're loved by our parental figurers,
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
Yo ho, yo ho, a law abiding citizen's life for me.



Original:
Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We pillage plunder, we rifle and loot.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
We kidnap and ravage and don't give a hoot.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We extort and pilfer, we filch and sack.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
Maraud and embezzle and even highjack.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We kindle and char and in flame and ignite.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
We burn up the city, we're really a fright.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.

We're rascals and scoundrels, we're villians and knaves.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
We're devils and black sheep, we're really bad eggs.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.

We're beggars and blighters and ne'er do-well cads,
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
Aye, but we're loved by our mommies and dads,
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.

 

[GatorChris]

Disney has decided to eliminate all human characters at POTC. Too offensive in too many ways. So they have to put in something completely non-offensive (unless you're a cat).

Meet the new Pirates animatronic: Jack Russell Sparrow

 

[FryingPansWhoKnew]

The scene never really made sense to me anyway. Pirates sack a Spanish town, torture the mayor to give up the treasure's location (before the Sparrow overlay), then sit down and pass out auction paddles for a nice orderly distribution of the town's women? I've looked for any accounts of any activity even remotely close to that by real pirates of the Caribbean, but haven't found any. Pirates would have wanted to loot the town, take what they want, and leave before the navy arrived. They wouldn't sit there and hold an auction for brides. If they wanted women, they would just take them.

Maybe we should see the pirates looting the town, murdering the towns folk indiscriminately...you know slitting throats of women and children whatever, then maybe have a pirate hunter arrive and have them all hanged, maybe at the ride's conclusion. If historical accuracy is what we want, the ride should be something more like that.

 

[NannyBeBe]

I first visited DLR back in 1959, so I have seen many changes. Most of them have not bothered me much.
But recently I have felt that many folks would like to turn DLR into a more adult park. I see a lot of excitement over the new additions, but I have not heard of any plans for new rides or activities for the little ones.
Rather than mess with Pirates, which is a more adult ride, I would like to see Disney tone down some of the scary scenes in the Fantasyland rides so that little children are not frightened. But like I said, I do not feel that kids are all that important to Disney anymore, probably because they do not spend money.

Gisele, I hope you do not leave. I always look forward to your posts.

 

[chickapin parterre]

hmmmm........stage coaches, mule rides, motor boats, cars, ufos, skyway, canoes...... pretty much needed adult supervision.......as for the dark rides being scary, parents need to follow the advice of publish guides that say 7 years old is the perfect age to first visit Disneyland......if I had followed that advice then I would not have traumatized my 5year old with all the dark scary rides like I did.....after all, he never read any of those books.....I have read Alice in Wonderland.....but that was in college in a lit class on drugs and literature.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

MO there's nothing wrong with updating things to better align with attitudes that are socially accepted currently.

But it also seems like a bit of "let's cover up what happened". Burying your head in the sand and saying things didn't happen in history isn't a good thing.

Yes, I'm female, and I have no issue with the scene.

 

[alvernon90]

But it also seems like a bit of "let's cover up what happened". Burying you head in the sand and saying things didn't happen in history isn't a good thing.

But not everything that ever happened in history can be depicted in a ride. There are lots of things pirates did that we would not want to see in the ride. Are we burying our heads in the sand because the ride does not have graphic depictions of people being disemboweled? Are we ignoring history by not showing rats eating human corpses? Lots of stuff happened in history that is too gross or sad or disturbing to put in a family fun park.

 

[eddnandee]

I'm disappointed with some of the reactions here. I come to the DIS boards to get away from "real life"...the same reason we go to Disney Parks. Does the change in POTC really take away from you experiencing the Happiest Place on Earth? If so, I'm sad for you.

Walt was all about change. So many things I used to love about Disneyland are now gone. And that's ok. It's not my park. But I still go and it still makes me happy. For those complaining about the change - were you also complaining when they added the movie characters? Jack Sparrow is definitely about "synergy" and not at all about "history."

People don't go to Disneyland for history lessons. They go to escape reality. If getting rid of the slavery scene can help someone who has been a victim in human trafficking experience the attraction in a positive way - I'm all for it. However, if you are super angry, might I suggest boycotting Disneyland specifically from Aug 30-Sept 4?

 

[FryingPansWhoKnew]

People don't go to Disneyland for history lessons.

The scene in question is not even historically accurate. The only references of pirate slavery auctions I can find are in fictional literature and even those are recent and likely influenced by this very scene. I'm really struggling to understand this argument. Pirates would never do this.

 

[Congo Queen]

I just got back from a trip to Japan and Tokyo Disney and am just catching up. First let me say that I am impressed by the general level of maturity, intelligence, and thoughtfulness on this thread (unlike at other sites where the convo veered quickly into name-calling and insults.) Second, I am personally torn right down the center on this one, and that is unusual for me as I’m a person with capital O opinions, and I love to share them (ask my DH). So let me begin by saying that just a few days ago when I rode Pirates in Japan, not knowing anything about planned changes to Pirates in Paris/WDW/Anaheim, I thought, as we passed the auction scene followed by the original pirates chasing women on turntables scene (though J Sparrow is in the barrel not the terrified maiden), wow it is amazing that Disney can get away with showing something like this today. Perhaps because I was outside of my typical Disney experience, I really noticed it and was uncomfortable about it – not outraged or anything but maybe “woke” to its content.

My family (DH, DD 14, DS 20) actually talked about it at length over a lunch at Tokyo Disney’s new Camp Woodchuck restaurant (any lovers of the old Donald and nephews comic books have to check this restaurant out online – amazing themeing). None of us called for a removal, but chalked it up to things that were OK to make fun when Pirates opened in 1967 but that could never be built today. We talked about how all of Disney is a VR immersive experience but not a “documentary” one, rather one of fantasy right down to trash cans playing a role in world building. We discussed how evolving VR technology will offer these options– to dive deep into reality like being inside a documentary or to someplace unreal or hyperreal that only exists in imagination. We talked about the ways popular culture has used “types” for the purpose of storytelling and pretty much agreed that we could put those things in the historical context of their creation (i.e. Gilbert & Sullivan’s Mikado or Billy Wilder’s Irma la Douce or Disney’s Song of the South to name just a very few) and examine them thusly, and therefore they should not be erased from the cultural continuum. It was actually a great discussion.

So where do I land on this? Obviously, the auction scene is problematic enough to launch our family into a substantial conversation on the necessity of unpacking tropes in modern culture (it helps we have a college student among us). As a woman, I am made uncomfortable today by a scene in Pirates that I have taken for granted all of my life (rode it first at age 4 in 1967 and been on hundreds of times since). Do I need them to change that scene due to my discomfort? No I don’t. I can talk about it, parse it, and explore it in a meaningful discussion.

Do I understand how others feel differently and want that scene changed? Sure I do. Sure I do because I am not happy with the thought that other 4-year old little girls will grow up seeing it and internalizing the victimization of women in this way. But is this the only place those little girls will witness that? Absolutely not – they are going to encounter the narrative short-cut that sexualizes and victimizes women over and over and over in a range of media. What to do? Parents and educators must teach children to view all forms of media/culture with a questioning mind – to unpack it for themselves and ask who made it, when and why. Then I’d urge people to engage by telling stories the way they would tell them. Media-making and storytelling is highly democratized now. We can all create and distribute our versions of stories to a global audience in a way that no previous generation could have dreamed of. I’d let the history of what was created before stand as it is, and create new content that does a better job reflecting who we are and what we think today.

 

[HydroGuy]

I'm disappointed with some of the reactions here. I come to the DIS boards to get away from "real life"...the same reason we go to Disney Parks. Does the change in POTC really take away from you experiencing the Happiest Place on Earth? If so, I'm sad for you.

Walt was all about change. So many things I used to love about Disneyland are now gone. And that's ok. It's not my park. But I still go and it still makes me happy. For those complaining about the change - were you also complaining when they added the movie characters? Jack Sparrow is definitely about "synergy" and not at all about "history."

First, I myself was in favor of adding Jack Sparrow to POTC. Certainly not everyone was. The POTC ride at DL is my favorite ride at DLR and I can remember riding it nearly 50 years ago.

I think you are mistaking the issue here. In general, yes Disney fans complain about change. It is human nature to complain about change so no surprise there.

With POTC I think the issue is the reason for the change. People are concerned about change driven by so-called political correctness. What has happened in this thread has been a mostly civil discourse on what should and should not be on a Disney ride, and how seriously or non-seriously we should take scenes in Disney rides.

Further, I and @VandVsmama have tried to show how the line of thought used on the POTC change can be applied to 25 others rides and issues at DLR. This too is a valid point of discussion to show that roughly half of DLR rides, when viewed through (what I would call) a skewed lens, can be interpreted as not politically correct and subject to change for similar reasons as POTC.

Bottom line is I think this thread is about much more than complaining about change for change's sake.

 

[FryingPansWhoKnew]

Further, I and @VandVsmama have tried to show how the line of thought used on the POTC change can be applied to 25 others rides and issues at DLR.

Respectfully though, hyperbole can be used the other direction as well. If nothing is off limits, why don't we have a more gruesome depiction of what pirates of the Caribbean were really like? Clearly there's a line drawn somewhere. We can argue about where that line should be drawn, but taking the argument to extremes doesn't appear to add anything of value.

 

[HydroGuy]

I just got back from a trip to Japan and Tokyo Disney and am just catching up. First let me say that I am impressed by the general level of maturity, intelligence, and thoughtfulness on this thread (unlike at other sites where the convo veered quickly into name-calling and insults.) Second, I am personally torn right down the center on this one, and that is unusual for me as I’m a person with capital O opinions, and I love to share them (ask my DH). So let me begin by saying that just a few days ago when I rode Pirates in Japan, not knowing anything about planned changes to Pirates in Paris/WDW/Anaheim, I thought, as we passed the auction scene followed by the original pirates chasing women on turntables scene (though J Sparrow is in the barrel not the terrified maiden), wow it is amazing that Disney can get away with showing something like this today. Perhaps because I was outside of my typical Disney experience, I really noticed it and was uncomfortable about it – not outraged or anything but maybe “woke” to its content.

My family (DH, DD 14, DS 20) actually talked about it at length over a lunch at Tokyo Disney’s new Camp Woodchuck restaurant (any lovers of the old Donald and nephews comic books have to check this restaurant out online – amazing themeing). None of us called for a removal, but chalked it up to things that were OK to make fun when Pirates opened in 1967 but that could never be built today. We talked about how all of Disney is a VR immersive experience but not a “documentary” one, rather one of fantasy right down to trash cans playing a role in world building. We discussed how evolving VR technology will offer these options– to dive deep into reality like being inside a documentary or to someplace unreal or hyperreal that only exists in imagination. We talked about the ways popular culture has used “types” for the purpose of storytelling and pretty much agreed that we could put those things in the historical context of their creation (i.e. Gilbert & Sullivan’s Mikado or Billy Wilder’s Irma la Douce or Disney’s Song of the South to name just a very few) and examine them thusly, and therefore they should not be erased from the cultural continuum. It was actually a great discussion.

First, isn't Tokyo Disney awesome?

Second, thanks for your thoughtful and genuine reply.

Third, I have four sons ages 21-25 - two still in college - and like all young people they have opinions about the morality/justness of today's world but especially of historical societies - including American history. I always caution them about applying today's moral views to societies in the past. We might harshly judge societies of the past - and my kids do, it is human nature I would say - but those societies would likely equally judge our morality today harshly. It is really tricky to judge morality of a historical time in which you did not personally live and as a result you do not have a very good understanding or any fair context.

It is also seems quite common for the elder generation to have negative views on the morality of today's society and today's youth. Probably like their elders had of them when they were young, but they forget that part.

Yesterday I discussed this thread and change coming to POTC with my my DS21 and my DW55 - who, without me discussing her personal life without her permission, I will just say she understands the issue behind the whole debate here on the POTC scene. Like me she has been going to DL since she was a very young girl and she said the POTC scene had never bothered her in the least. When I said the scene was being changed and why, both DS21 and DW55 literally came out of their seats and shouted "No way! That is ridiculous!".

Anyways, thanks for sharing your thoughts. This issue is polarizing and complex. I think it is a good issue of debate.

 

[chickapin parterre]

Respectfully though, hyperbole can be used the other direction as well. If nothing is off limits, why don't we have a more gruesome depiction of what pirates of the Caribbean were really like? Clearly there's a line drawn somewhere. We can argue about where that line should be drawn, but taking the argument to extremes doesn't appear to add anything of value.

I'd like to build the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees and honey bees
And snow white turtle doves

April, 1985

the bottom line....change for the sake of change.

 

[HydroGuy]

Respectfully though, hyperbole can be used the other direction as well. If nothing is off limits, why don't we have a more gruesome depiction of what pirates of the Caribbean were really like? Clearly there's a line drawn somewhere. We can argue about where that line should be drawn, but taking the argument to extremes doesn't appear to add anything of value.

I agree and disagree. If you read all my posts in this thread carefully (I do not expect you to, but just if you had) I have said that Disney should not get a blank check just because it is entertainment and that the general line of thought here questioning the POTC should be a valid point of discussion.

The part I disagree with is what POTC is really saying - as in, is it endorsing anything? Some think so and have argued that point. I have taken the opposite point.

As for your suggestions of what gruesome things might be depicted and where to draw the line, I agree with you that is a completely valid point. I think a lot of otherwise gruesome things get romanticized over time and morality (or maybe just societal norms) does shift, and that is part of the discussion. The romanticization can gloss over a lot of very negative and even violent genuine history.

Without diving too much farther, most Americans celebrate Halloween in some way and allow their kids to celebrate. The true issues and themes wrapped up there are gruesome when taken literally. Most of us take it more as "this is all in fun and, like a good scary movie, it is sometimes kind of fun to be scared" especially when we can experience this fright from a safe distance and context (e.g., watching a scary movie from our home TV with our family and then turning it off). I argue that the POTC scene and others like it at Disney parks are in this same spirit that most of us are otherwise OK with.

 

[FryingPansWhoKnew]

I agree and disagree. If you read all my posts in this thread carefully (I do not expect you to, but just if you had) I have said that Disney should not get a blank check just because it is entertainment and that the general line of thought here questioning the POTC should be a valid point of discussion.

The part I disagree with is what POTC is really saying - as in, is it endorsing anything? Some think so and have argued that point. I have taken the opposite point.

Fair enough. Admittedly, I did not read the entire list. By the third point, I feel like I got the gyst of the ideas being conveyed. I find the argument that Disney is endorsing bride auctions to be a little exaggerated. I also admit though I did not see the argument you refer to.

For the record, I was never disturbed enough by the auction scene to call for its removal. Honestly, I'm mainly in favor of its removal, because it makes zero sense. Although, the scene they intend to replace it with doesn't make sense either for the pretty much the same reason. Pirates would not be holding auctions in sacked towns like this. Those pirates are without a doubt the worst pirates I've ever heard of.

 

[chickapin parterre]

.....but you have heard of them........