Sad Story from One Who Trusted without Checking!

[dianeschlicht]

Okay, so maybe there is a 4th one? Incredible. Obviously, she has gotten away with it all along the way. I hope the buck STOPS here! GO Get her, guys!!

 

[mama03]

Just a side note. I as a concerned member would like to say that I would warn anyone who is renting for the first time to see how long someone has been a member. Second, see if you can get a referral. The longer someone has been a member the better your chances that this person is legit. Also, I noticed this person might have reregistered and the moderators locked them from the rent/trade board. People are concerned and are reacting so this does not happen again.

 

[twinklebug]

Best thing you can do is go to the police with as much info as possible. I would also try to get your story in the press as they really do have an enormous amount of power. Even though I do not think you will ever get your money back at least you can hopefully stop it happening to somebody else.

All national newspapers have news desks and you can just email your story and they will pick it up.

I think in this(these) case(s) going to the media could cause more harm than good to all parties, including the DIS community. It could shed a bad light on DVC, DVC renters, owners and open up a world of scamming options to folk who ordinarilly would have stayed with their "you mail me $20, I'll send you a list" enterprises. Best that this stays private & with legal consult.

Now, alerting the general public about financial and personal safety on the web in general is a good thing I applaud anyone who writes a well thought out column on safety practices on the web. It can only help those who are less informed.
​

 

[DMKEDM]

In defense of "all people in NY": this is ONE bad actor...anyone contemplating a rental agreement w/someone in NY, feel free to PM me for a reference...totally not fair to the good people in NY to tar them w/this bad person's brush!

No update yet, unfortunately...but still some hope (remind me: it was one week ago today that this happened. Seems like a "lifetime" by now! But there is still hope.)

Happy day; happy weekend; and don't forget there IS magic in this world: at WDW, among this cybercommunity, and elsewhere too...life is good; people are good except for some bad things. This is one of those bad things. It's being dealt with and most of the dealings can't be shared here (yet, anyway)...

So for those who worry about their plans to rent: check in w/one of us victims (lucky us! grin) or their helpers and we'll let you know if you've stumbled on this person...as for the rest, don't forget the original point of this thread: there WERE warning signs and they were big and they were obvious...if you're in a rental agreement negotiation, you'll be able to avoid what happened to me simply by looking for these warning signs; if you see them, either run away right then, or explore further to see if they're real signs of problems or something that can be explained to your satisfaction...don't forget, it took my "cooperation" for this scam to work! (and yes, I feel very very VERY stupid!)

Bottom line for those who worry about the ability of this person to "do this deed" again...it's simply not possible if the person she's dealing with has read this thread ... the similarities will be incredibly obvious...

I hope we all have a pixie-dust day!

 

[deedeetoo]

I also have been following this thread daily and feel just terrible for the people involved. We briefly considered renting points back when we first became interested in DVC and just couldn't bring ourselves to do it because we feared a situation like this. I am praying for all involved.

After reading here, I went over to the R/T board and noticed that there are a lot of postings by individuals with very low post counts. Much more than I've seen on other boards. I think it is possible that there is much more fraud going on than people are aware of. Its too easy to create a new account, use it a few times, then abandon it after problems arise and start another account.

Here's my suggstion for a possible deterrent. Don't allow anyone to post on that board until they have been a disboard member for at least six months and have accumulated at least 50 posts. This will inconvenience some people, but it should help weed out the fraud. And you could argue that it makes sense for other reasons since people should take the time to educate themselves first. Just a thought.

 

[robinb]

I think the long and short of this story at the moment is don't rent from any woman in NY since we don't exactly know who this person is How sad is this?

Please don't penalize people from NY!

The long and the short of it is for to rent from people who are trustworthy. In my opinion, that means they are people who are established here on the DIS, who will explain the process to you in ways you understand, who will not pressure you to pay in ways you are not comfortable with, who answer all your calls, PMs and emails and who provide a contract so everything is understood. You can rent from a newbie, or someone who is flaky or who wants you to pay by Western Union, or who doesn't "bother" with a contract and you would probably be fine. However, I think as you chip away at each of the attributes you run a greater risk of being had.

 

[3DisneyKids]

After reading here, I went over to the R/T board and noticed that there are a lot of postings by individuals with very low post counts. Much more than I've seen on other boards. I think it is possible that there is much more fraud going on than people are aware of. Its too easy to create a new account, use it a few times, then abandon it after problems arise and start another account.

There is a reason that there are so many on R/T with low post numbers....there are at least 2 (that I personally know of) "e-Books" out there that are "How to Save BIG on a Disney Vacation" type of things. BOTH of the 2 that I know of have a chapter about how to rent on the DIS boards...it walks the reader through the entire process...getting a screen name, going to the R/T board , how to word your post, and so on.

I am not sure if the "authors" of these "books" (and I use these terms liberally, as I do not consider there real books) are being ethical in selling this information or not, but one is sold for $19.99 and the other is around $15 or so, I think (both you just download once you have put your money through). A friend of mine ordered these hoping to save and then realized that there was nothing in there that you couldn't get from Mousesavers and Allearsnet (and, of course, the DIS).

So again, do not assume that low posts = lack of ethics. Yes, the cases here are very upsetting and awful...but we all had low post counts at some point.

I think if there was tons of fraud going on, we would here more of these stories. Fortunately, these seem to be few and far between...and if several are from just one person, then the number of fraudulent renters is really low.

 

[rkdahl]

I also have been following this thread daily and feel just terrible for the people involved. We briefly considered renting points back when we first became interested in DVC and just couldn't bring ourselves to do it because we feared a situation like this.

Just remember this is only a very high profile example of, hopefully, one bad renter. As with everything else in life there are always a few bad apples in anything. There are thousands of rental transactions that have gone just fine with happy people on both sides of the transaction.

If you take reasonable precautions when renting (time on boards, signed contracts, meeting agreed to commitments, no 'rushed' transactions, etc) you can have a wonderful vacation in a DVC rental. So don't be dismayed from renting because of just this thread.

We're all hoping for a positive outcome for this particular situation and we all feel terrible for what has happened here.

 

[JandD Mom]

I agree, a low number of posts does not necessarily mean the person is not trustworthy.

Before I joined DVC and I rented points, I "interviewed" owners until I found the ones I felt comfortable renting from. Those I rented from tended to be professionals or business owners who I could verify. If someone has a long-standing business, or a professional license, I feel they are much less likely to be less than honest in one of these transactions. Why? THey have assets AND you can FIND them.

If you are renting, you should not be afraid to ask for references, and you should VERIFY them.

However, I was willing to pay a bit more per point to make sure I had this security.

Also, keep in mind, often the "fly by night" people may advertize their points for a very very cheap price. Just like when you are purchasing over the internet, ebay, or wherever remember, if the deal is too good to be true, it probably isn't true!

 

[minniemomof3]

Here's my suggstion for a possible deterrent. Don't allow anyone to post on that board until they have been a disboard member for at least six months and have accumulated at least 50 posts. This will inconvenience some people, but it should help weed out the fraud. And you could argue that it makes sense for other reasons since people should take the time to educate themselves first. Just a thought.[/QUOTE]

I think this is a great idea!

 

[robinb]

Here's my suggstion for a possible deterrent. Don't allow anyone to post on that board until they have been a disboard member for at least six months and have accumulated at least 50 posts. This will inconvenience some people, but it should help weed out the fraud. And you could argue that it makes sense for other reasons since people should take the time to educate themselves first. Just a thought.

I think this is a great idea!

ETA: Since the R/T board is moderated the mods can also verify that the person didn't just say "bump" for 50 posts.

 

[dumbo71]

Here's my suggstion for a possible deterrent. Don't allow anyone to post on that board until they have been a disboard member for at least six months and have accumulated at least 50 posts. This will inconvenience some people, but it should help weed out the fraud. And you could argue that it makes sense for other reasons since people should take the time to educate themselves first. Just a thought.

I think this is a great idea![/QUOTE]


I disagree. Number of posts is NOT the only factor here. Quality of the posts should be a factor as well. The biggest factor should be a written contract, willingness of the renter to comunicate openly an honestly about the entire process and perhaps a referral list of satisfied rentees. Also the red flags that have been discussed here in this thread should scare someone away.

Under this suggestion that you like all a scammer would have to do is post 50 posts in 6 months to be considered reliable. Not hard to do for sure.

There is no perfect system but at least the scammers are few and far between.

 

[dumbo71]

I think before anyone critizes the DIS board R/T staff one needs to remember they get nothing out of offering the service and probably a great deal of headaches.

Also as in other situation when people are quick to critize Disney, there is always two sides and other than Dani, Stacey and possibly Jim, no one knows for sure what the DIS team has done to assist in this situation or prevent future ones. You have to take that on trust.

If you don't have trust in the team on the forum you have the option to not use them.

Just to be clear, I'm really not trying to be critical of the Dis or the mods. I feel Doc went above and beyong to help bring a resolution. I also love this forum and trust the Dis and the mods.

What I'm hoping for is to have a series of steps in place to prevent this from happening again, if possible.

These nice people are living a nightmare and one nobody else should have to endure. It isn't a good feeling to be burned.

I hope this all works out.

 

[robinb]

Under this suggestion that you like all a scammer would have to do is post 50 posts in 6 months to be considered reliable. Not hard to do for sure.

You missed my edit about the mods checking the posts ...

Of course it isn't fool (or scam) proof. But it will slow down the casual scammers. Too many hoops fto jump through makes a scammer go find easier pickin's elsewhere.

This is going to sound harsh and I have been flamed for this opinion before, but here goes ... As for the honest newbies who wish to post posts for rent: too bad. I think the R/T board is a great idea but I think that it should be for members of the DIS Community. Not for someone who wants to dump his/her points. There are other places for that. I would like to see a restriction on those who want to rent out their points, but not those who want to rent for a vacation.

 

[Frankiesmom]

I just have to say it again-this thing is soooo sad!

 

[Lewisc]

It's not possible. The six month rule won't help much. Some owners and renters come here specifically to rent. The person's join date is available and people can use that as one criteria in deciding who to do business with.

I don't want to beat up posters who made a mistake but an owner that demands payment via Western Union puts up a red flag.

I'm not sure what the board can do or should do. Although I wouldn't expect DIS could enforce such a rule, I'd like to have a rule that states posters can only offer for rent DVC properties they (or their spouse) own. Violating that rule would have given DIS an objective way to ban the person in question after the Vogel situation. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable paying someone other than the owner.

Just to be clear, I'm really not trying to be critical of the Dis or the mods. I feel Doc went above and beyong to help bring a resolution. I also love this forum and trust the Dis and the mods.

What I'm hoping for is to have a series of steps in place to prevent this from happening again, if possible.

These nice people are living a nightmare and one nobody else should have to endure. It isn't a good feeling to be burned.

I hope this all works out.

 

[jamackin]

Well, I've been reading this thread since last Saturday and wanted to share my story (completely related).

Last Friday, I got a pm from this same person at 2:45pm saying that they could help with my rental and gave me a phone number. At 10am on Saturday I called them, but the number didn't work. So, I pm'd them back and said the number didn't work and they could call me...I gave them my number. Around 2pm on Saturday, she called me and said she knew she gave someone the wrong number by mistake and was glad I contacted her. She then gave me her correct number (although I never tried it to see) and her email address. We set up the rental. She said she'd call me at 2pm on Monday so we could make a 3way call to Member Services. Once I had the verbal reservation number, she wanted me to send 50% by money order. She gave me her name and address. Then, she wanted me to send the other 50% at 60 days before arrival (the ressie was for next August). It all sounded fine. I told her I would send her an email with all the details as I understood them and if should could send me an email back to confirm, that would be great. She also said that she rented last year (I didn't ask her, she offered the information) and I could look them up on the disboards....the Vogel Family!

So, I went and found the Vogels and found the "other" thread. After reading that thread, it sounded like everything worked out fine (this was before the more recent posts on it), so I thought we'd go ahead with it. I did, although, send the Vogels a pm and an email to see if they had any advice. I've since realized that they're still on their vacation, so I obviously haven't heard back(I'll bet her mailbox will be full when she returns!). So, I spent a lot of time on Saturday night and Sunday writing this email to the renter, trying to decide how "legal" to make it sound or should I make it more casual, etc. I'm so glad I took my time doing that! After I had written the email (not sent it yet), I decided to poke around the DIS some more. I went to the renter's original R/T Board post and looked at the other posts by some of the people who replied there and lo and behold, I found this thread. (It was almost as if God was watching out for me!) After reading through this thread on Sunday, my husband and I decided that we needed to just get out of this transaction. So, I sent her a pm and an email saying it's just too risky for us and our situation.

Also on Sunday, I saw another post by someone with points that matched our wants, so I pm'd them and went back and forth with them late Sunday night. They also had a low post count, but did have one other post except for the R/T Board so I checked it out and.....you guessed it, it was on the Vogel's "other" thread! So, once I saw that, I send them a pm as well saying it was just too risky for us and our situation. I'm so glad I backed out in time!

We were wanting to rent for next August (a long time from now) and it was for a lot of money (for us at least), so this risk just wasn't worth it.

So, thank you thank you thank you OP for posting this!!! It saved me a lot of money and heartache!

We rented this summer within 5 months of our trip and for just 3 weeknights so the cost was much less and thus the risk much less. The transaction went smoothly and I really wanted to do it again for our "big" trip next summer.....my girls are dying to see Stormalong Bay and stay at the BCV. The cost of it through CRO is amost prohibitive, so I was soooo hoping I could do it by renting. I may just have to wait a little while and see if one of the reliable and trustworthy and longtimers posts rental points!!

Anyways, just thought I'd add my story to continue to paint the picture.

Here's hoping all wrongs get righted!

Amita

 

[JimMIA]

This is going to sound harsh and I have been flamed for this opinion before, but here goes ... As for the honest newbies who wish to post posts for rent: too bad. I think the R/T board is a great idea but I think that it should be for members of the DIS Community. Not for someone who wants to dump his/her points. There are other places for that. I would like to see a restriction on those who want to rent out their points, but not those who want to rent for a vacation.

No flames here. If the DIS were going to consider any changes in policies, THIS is the one I would agree with.

We always see a lot of totally unrealistic suggestions for improving the DIS, but this is one that is doable. Whether they would want to is a policy decision only the mods can make -- and there are valid arguments on both sides -- but this is at least doable.

There are, of course, established members who create new user names to rent with, but that concept has always mystified me. Why would you not want people to know who you are?

 

[cobbler]

jamackin-
Glad you did some research and avoided being a potential victim.

Still hoping for pixie dust for Dani and Stacy.

 

[Hillbeans]

Correct me if i'm wrong because i've been kind of poking in and out of this thread, however isn't offering points for rent that are not owned by you a violation of the DIS guidelines for DVC rentals?

Isn't the PP in this thread renting out points that belong to her Aunt/Grandmother and can't this be easily proven?