Sad Story from One Who Trusted without Checking!

[JimMIA]

Isn't the PP in this thread renting out points that belong to her Aunt/Grandmother and can't this be easily proven?

Yes, she was renting out of an account which she says belongs to her aunt. Whether that relationship is actually true or not is anybody's guess, but she definitely did have the ability to make reservations through the account.

Could ownership and account activity be proven? Sure. You'd just subpoena the DVC records and the proof would be right there.

Does the DIS have access to info about whether or not someone actually owns points or has legal authority over an account? Or can they get access to that info?

No. How could they?

 

[calypso*a*go-go]

Maybe a temporary solution would be to post a sticky at the top of the Rent/Trade Board advising potential renters to avoid any transactions that include payment through Western Union.

I think many of us have discovered at least two usernames with points for rent by "PP", one of which had a very recent post that included five public responses from people wanting to rent (who knows how many contacted her through PMs). That thread has now been locked and I sincerely hope that none of the individuals went racing to the local W.U. counter, or we may hear even more stories similar to those on this thread.

 

[Lewisc]

DIS could still have the rule. Doesn't the DVC confirmation list the name of the owner? If DIS has such a rule the person in question could have be banned after the Vogel situation.

Could ownership and account activity be proven? Sure. You'd just subpoena the DVC records and the proof would be right there.

Does the DIS have access to info about whether or not someone actually owns points or has legal authority over an account? Or can they get access to that info?

No. How could they?

 

[diznyfanatic]

I just want to say again how sorry I am to everyone that has been a victim of this type.

However, there has been some very good things that have come out of this whole mess.

Because of Dani & Stacey posting their stories, what has developed from this thread has become an important Renting Primer. For anyone who might have been too afraid to offend before during a rental transaction, this thread should provide all the courage and excuse needed to do as much as possible to protect yourself on both sides of the transaction.

1. Do your homework FIRST
2. Know who you are dealing with. Confirm ownership and check the county website if necessary
3. Require a written rental agreement
4. Require references and check them - Personally, if I am renting from someone on the DIS, I would want DIS references since they can be easily verified.
5. Enforce your rental agreement
6. Never use Western Union in a rental transaction. There are too many other options.
7. Verify all contact information prior to remitting any funds
8. Know beforehand the busy DVC seasons so that you know whether or not it is even likely a reservation would be available
9. Understand the basic dynamics of how DVC works so that you aren't misled into straying from the rental agreement due to supposed Use Year, Banking, Holding, or other type "problems"
10. Post or PM an established owner with your questions if unsure about something
11. Listen to your gut
12. Be prepared to pursue whatever legal avenues are available if something does go wrong.

I'm sure there is more, but ultimately, the only way to stop this from ever happening here again is to be vigilant and take the steps to protect yourself first.

We've all learned a very valuable lesson thanks to Dani and Stacey and others. Hopefully, out of this mess there will far less chance of it happening again.

 

[JimMIA]

DIS could still have the rule. Doesn't the DVC confirmation list the name of the owner? If DIS has such a rule the person in question could have be banned after the Vogel situation.

Sure, but think about what you're saying. She had the authority to make the Vogel reservation, and although a little problematic, the Vogel ressie was completed successfully. You would ban someone for conducting a successful transaction?

It's been said many times before. Any system of rules and regulations you set up can be easily defeated by someone who is determined to commit a crime. We would all be much more productive if we stopped trying to second-guess the DIS management. We're just beating a dead horse when we should be focused on what prospective renters can do to protect themselves.

The BEST protection we have is meeting our own individual responsibilities -- not expecting the Fairy Godmother to protect us. There is no Fairy Godmother.

 

[JimMIA]

1. Do your homework FIRST
2. Know who you are dealing with. Confirm ownership and check the county website if necessary
3. Require a written rental agreement
4. Require references and check them - Personally, if I am renting from someone on the DIS, I would want DIS references since they can be easily verified.
5. Enforce your rental agreement
6. Never use Western Union in a rental transaction. There are too many other options.
7. Verify all contact information prior to remitting any funds
8. Know beforehand the busy DVC seasons so that you know whether or not it is even likely a reservation would be available
9. Understand the basic dynamics of how DVC works so that you aren't misled into straying from the rental agreement due to supposed Use Year, Banking, Holding, or other type "problems"
10. Post or PM an established owner with your questions if unsure about something
11. Listen to your gut
12. Be prepared to pursue whatever legal avenues are available if something does go wrong.

I'm sure there is more, but ultimately, the only way to stop this from ever happening here again is to be vigilant and take the steps to protect yourself first.

Now, THAT's what I'm talking about! Thank you!

 

[ZipaDeeDooDah]

I just want to say again how sorry I am to everyone that has been a victim of this type.

However, there has been some very good things that have come out of this whole mess.

Because of Dani & Stacey posting their stories, what has developed from this thread has become an important Renting Primer. For anyone who might have been too afraid to offend before during a rental transaction, this thread should provide all the courage and excuse needed to do as much as possible to protect yourself on both sides of the transaction.

1. Do your homework FIRST
2. Know who you are dealing with. Confirm ownership and check the county website if necessary
3. Require a written rental agreement
4. Require references and check them - Personally, if I am renting from someone on the DIS, I would want DIS references since they can be easily verified.
5. Enforce your rental agreement
6. Never use Western Union in a rental transaction. There are too many other options.
7. Verify all contact information prior to remitting any funds
8. Know beforehand the busy DVC seasons so that you know whether or not it is even likely a reservation would be available
9. Understand the basic dynamics of how DVC works so that you aren't misled into straying from the rental agreement due to supposed Use Year, Banking, Holding, or other type "problems"
10. Post or PM an established owner with your questions if unsure about something
11. Listen to your gut
12. Be prepared to pursue whatever legal avenues are available if something does go wrong.

I'm sure there is more, but ultimately, the only way to stop this from ever happening here again is to be vigilant and take the steps to protect yourself first.

We've all learned a very valuable lesson thanks to Dani and Stacey and others. Hopefully, out of this mess there will far less chance of it happening again.

Excellent, excellent advice!!! Thank you!

 

[LisaS]

DIS could still have the rule. Doesn't the DVC confirmation list the name of the owner? If DIS has such a rule the person in question could have be banned after the Vogel situation.

I'm not sure if the confirmation still has the name of the owner. But even if it does, this would put the burden of policing the R/T boards on the renters since they would be the ones who would discover the problem when they got a copy of the confirmation in the mail. How many of them would know to report it to a moderator? How many would be comfortable doing that if they know it's going to get someone banned from the DIS?

You also have the problem that when DVC is owned jointly, only one name is put on much of the paperwork from DVC. I handle everything to do with DVC and am listed first on the deed. And yet, a large amount of the paperwork we receive has only DH's name on it. He and I have different last names so if I ever rent out points, there is a good chance that the owner listed on the confirmation would seem to be completely unrelated to me.

I think the 6-month/50-posts rule would be much better. The mods have direct access to the info required to enforce it. They can verify that the person appears to be a member of the community, not just someone posting "Yup" 50 times over 6 months. And if a scammer really did a good job faking it and then commits fraud, they would be banned and have to start all over again. As we've seen with our current situation, once word got out about her she immediately created a new DIS board account and was right back in business. A 6-month/50-posts waiting period would prevent that.

 

[twinklebug]

There is no Fairy Godmother.

Jim, do you really think this was the proper thread to destroy my dreams? I suppose next you'll tell me I'm not really Cinderella and the mice I've been talking to while sitting in my fireplace are just common everyday rats.



Broken Dreams aside, people, Jim is 100% right. Vigilance is the ultimate solution here. The DIS is merely a convenient place where we've come together to share our love of Disney. It is not the DIS's place to play big brother here, nor is it economically feasible.

 

[LisaS]

There are, of course, established members who create new user names to rent with, but that concept has always mystified me. Why would you not want people to know who you are?

I've wondered about this as well.

 

[Lewisc]

I would ban, assuming there was a rule.

What would have happened if the aunt sold the DVC unit or was in default of maintenance? I'm not sure how a contract between the Vogel's and the person in question would be binding on the aunt. Suppose the aunt canceled the reservation because the person in question didn't forward funds to the aunt? Suppose the aunt doesn't even exist? There is the potential for outright fraud. Even an honest renter could be faced with having to offer a last minute refund.

Also their is the potential for someone to rent at $12 a point, have the money wired and then tries to troll for another owner willing to rent for less than $10 point.

The rent board is for members renting their points, not for people trying to serve as a broker.

Very few DIS use their legal name as their screen name. It really isn't any issue if the person renting has you make the check payable to the actual owner and the actual owner signs the agreement. Jim, if I rent from you and the confirmation shows the owner as Jane Doe and my check is payable to Jane Doe I don't care (or know) if that's your wife, mother or aunt. I'd be concerned if you had me make the check payable to Jim Smith and the owner on the reservation was Jane Doe.


Lisa the person renting would only complain if there was a problem. My point is this gives DIS an objective way to ban someone.

Sure, but think about what you're saying. She had the authority to make the Vogel reservation, and although a little problematic, the Vogel ressie was completed successfully. You would ban someone for conducting a successful transaction?

 

[Scotch]

Here's my suggstion for a possible deterrent. Don't allow anyone to post on that board until they have been a disboard member for at least six months and have accumulated at least 50 posts. This will inconvenience some people, but it should help weed out the fraud. And you could argue that it makes sense for other reasons since people should take the time to educate themselves first. Just a thought.

I know some other community boards have a similiar "min-post number" requirement before being allowed the privilege of using that forums' classified ad-type boards for buying/selling/renting.

 

[JimMIA]

Jim, do you really think this was the proper thread to destroy my dreams?

Yep! I don't know about destroying dreams, but this thread is certainly a bubble-burster for a lot of folks. And that's a good thing.

I suppose next you'll tell me I'm not really Cinderella and the mice I've been talking to while sitting in my fireplace are just common everyday rats.

Absolutely not! What kind of a monster do you take me for? You ARE Cinderella, and you're absolutely gorgeous. The rats are cute too.

 

[keishashadow]

Just discovered the thread (have skimmed thru), so disturbing, hope it all works out ok for the victims. Kuddos to TSS for their wonderful gesture.

So glad my prior transactions dealt with honest, upfront sellers so far; haven't had any problem to speak of...one question, slightly OT:

I've used PayPal to fund my purchases, thought once the money went into the account it was valid unless the wrong "payee" received funds? Am I missing something?

 

[Hillbeans]

The rent board is for members renting their points, not for people trying to serve as a broker.

.

Thank you Lewisc - this is really the point I was trying to make - if someone repeatedly was trying to broker the rental of points on behalf of another party, that seems to be against Dis R/T posts, and we have numerous threads stating the fact that the PP is not the owner of the unit.

 

[mamatojon]

I've wondered about this as well.

I don't know, it makes sense to me. If you are a big time poster and like to post things that are somewhat "controversial" or get into heated arguments with other posters, you are likely to offend either exisiting or potential customers. Having a separate rental screen name fixes that, no one links the two as one. Keep in mind I am completely "out of the loop" here, so I could be way off base, LOL.

Back on topic, sorry!

 

[InstImpres]

I know some other community boards have a similiar "min-post number" requirement before being allowed the privilege of using that forums' classified ad-type boards for buying/selling/renting.

I think this would be very easily accomplished. This board has a min. post requirement in effect for posting URLs, so I am guessing there are functions that could be "turned on"

 

[JimMIA]

The rent board is for members renting their points, not for people trying to serve as a broker.

Sure, but one of the points you guys are missing here is that there is no way to tell whether someone is an owner or not. Look at LisaS's post above. She's an owner, but her husband's name (different from hers) appears on many DVC records.

I have a similar situation. My two adult daughters are equal co-owners of the account, but my name alone appears on the confirmations. They have the same ownership rights I have, they have every legal right to do rentals, but the DVC computer spits everything out in my name.

Without going through the legal process of subpoening records, nobody would have any way to know whether my daughters were okay or bogus.

 

[lizziepooh]

So now the PP is getting "smarter" and asking for money orders instead of Western Union (jamackin's post) to eliminate one red flag. I also wonder how many other people have been scammed but are hesitant to post because of feeling like a fool. I'm sure it is a very small amount, but still the number of deals gone bad may be a few more than we all originally thought.

There also could be legitimate situations where an elderly relative would ask someone else to handle the rental of their points. Many older folks don't have computers and are not computer literate, although In this case, PP says she actually owns the points but they are in the aunt's name. Not sure why that would be.

I too hope that this all gets resolved, but I'm not real hopeful that folkks will get their money back anytime soon. I expect the money was spent quite soon after it was picked up if the PP has financial problems, is homeless, etc.

I'm curious, how do you recognize that two different user names are the same person?

 

[Lewisc]

Maybe my idea won't work but as a renter I'd prefer to be dealing with whatever name shows up on the reservation as being the owner. I have no easy way of confirming if your daughter have the legal right to rent to me. If your name appears as owner on my confirmation I'd feel a lot more comfortable having your signature on a rental agreement and possibly even making payment to you.

DIS could have a rule, or at least a suggestion, that renters deal with whoever is listed as the owner on the reservation. The very fact that there isn't an easy way to determine if the other person is an owner is a reason to do business with the listed owner. This is one red flag, if everything else was good and I was dealing with someone like yourself, I might accept the explanation that the contract was jointly owned by your daughter.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Sure, but one of the points you guys are missing here is that there is no way to tell whether someone is an owner or not. Look at LisaS's post above. She's an owner, but her husband's name (different from hers) appears on many DVC records.

I have a similar situation. My two adult daughters are equal co-owners of the account, but my name alone appears on the confirmations. They have the same ownership rights I have, they have every legal right to do rentals, but the DVC computer spits everything out in my name.

Without going through the legal process of subpoening records, nobody would have any way to know whether my daughters were okay or bogus.