Rumor: Disney shutting down rental brokers

If DVC rentals decreased would Disney room reservations increase? How many points were forfeited each year prior to rental brokers? How much money does Disney lose when DVC owners stay home instead of vacationing at Disney? Can Disney come up with their own program to allow owners to transfer points to Disney at a reduced rate if they did take steps to stop other renting?

:earsboy: Bill

Replace your hypothetical with any one of a hundred different subjects. How much does Disney "lose" when guests:

- bring their own snacks into the park
- bring their own drinks
- bring their own stroller
- drive
- dine in their villa
- dine off-site
- buy t-shirts at walmart
- golf off-site

...and on, and on, and on.

There is very little Disney can do about rental brokers because rentals are expressly permitted by the POS. The broker doesn't interact with DVC in any formal capacity on the member's behalf. It's still up to the member to secure the reservation. Brokers simply make the introduction and hold the money in escrow. I don't even see how Disney would have grounds for (legally) going after them.

Disney could create their own competing rental service, but it would have to be financially beneficial to members in order to gain much traction. And that move alone wouldn't shut-down third-party brokers as this posts suggests.

The original post claims "Disney will be putting rules in places to prevent brokers from renting points, instead requiring owners to do rentals privately." How would Disney even monitor this? I use my points to make a reservation for the Smith family. How is Disney going to police my relationship with the Smiths?
 
But 11 month bookings are only available to BWV owners.
Exactly. Which means that if an 11-month booking is going via a rental broker, it is a BWV owner who is renting their points. Not an SSR owner. BWV is becoming more popular due to F&W for fall, and the Standard Studios are close to the least expensive studios in all of DVC. Resale prices for BWV support the increased popularity of the resort -- a stripped contract is going for ~$94/point, and some listings are asking for as much as $120/point. Most contracts are running above $100 but below $110.

People renting points via a broker are also generally not going to walk reservations, or wait list them. If this is occurring for any rental transactions, it's undoubtedly a private transaction via this board or other direct DVC member-to-renter board. Not a brokerage agency.

I think the challenge is that in the contract, the right to rent is stated to be "via the Club Member's own efforts." While this is clarified further that TWDC will not help them rent out the points, legal might be willing to toss around that contracting with an agency is insufficient relative to "the Club Member's own efforts." You also can't buy a membership with the sole purpose of using it to rent ("a commercial enterprise"). This doesn't seem to preclude a broker, since the broker isn't the Club Member. It seems difficult to prove that someone used a broker to meet their renter.

I think where it gets slippery is if they try to exclude brokers from renting, will they also next demand that any sale of your contract must go via Disney?
 
I'm not a DVC owner and never rented points. From my view as an outsider, it seems somewhat unfair to DVC members if they can't reserve a room when they want while a non-member can simply because they rent from an owner who books and then never uses the reservation. DVC members should have priority over non-members, IMHO.
 
The original post claims "Disney will be putting rules in places to prevent brokers from renting points, instead requiring owners to do rentals privately." How would Disney even monitor this? I use my points to make a reservation for the Smith family. How is Disney going to police my relationship with the Smiths?

Even if they could, they probably don't have a legal right to control the use of a middleman in the transaction. As long as renting is allowed, I get to control the terms of my rental as long as it doesn't violate the terms of the contract or law. I can take Paypal or insist on a cashiers check or take Visa. I can charge $20 a point (if I can get it) or $2 a point. I can insist on payment upfront or use installments. I can provide vacation planning services to my renters or once the reservation is made and confirmed, only talk to them to make Magical Express arrangements - and I could refuse to do that much if I wanted choosing only to work with people who would be renting a car or driving. I can certainly use a broker to provide matchmaking between me and a renter and be used as a middleman in the money transaction.
 

I'm not a DVC owner and never rented points. From my view as an outsider, it seems somewhat unfair to DVC members if they can't reserve a room when they want while a non-member can simply because they rent from an owner who books and then never uses the reservation. DVC members should have priority over non-members, IMHO.

The DVC member does - they are simply letting someone else use that reservation. And not allowing that gets into a sticky spot - what if I want to gift a honeymoon to my daughter. Should another member get priority?
 
I'm not a DVC owner and never rented points. From my view as an outsider, it seems somewhat unfair to DVC members if they can't reserve a room when they want while a non-member can simply because they rent from an owner who books and then never uses the reservation. DVC members should have priority over non-members, IMHO.

But how do you administer such a two-tiered system? What sort of real-world rules would you propose to address this?

If the "member" gets priority, what happens when I want to make a honeymoon reservation for my son and his bride? Do they get "member" status or are they treated like a renter?

What if I make a reservation 11 months out for myself and extended family, and then 2 weeks before the trip realize that I cannot travel? What happens to the reservation if the member is no longer listed?

(Bear in mind that in any/all of these scenarios, an owner renting points could simply lie and claim they were making a honeymoon reservation for a relative or list the owner as part of the renter's traveling party.)

Your post implies that a non-member can get a room while a member cannot. In reality, both parties have EQUAL access to all available rooms. Whenever a member can't book a room, "renters" are convenient scapegoats even though we have no idea if there was a single rental reservation made for the day in question.

Regardless of who is staying in the room, every villa is booked by a point-owning member. If BWV has 40 Standard View Studios and 60 people attempting to book at 11 months, some will lose out. It sounds trite but "if you snooze, you lose."

To some, renting certainly violates the spirit of the program. Problem is it doesn't violate the rules and I don't see how Disney could enact any real-world restrictions without introducing other unwanted limitations.
 
Last edited:
If the "member" gets priority, what happens when I want to make a honeymoon reservation for my son and his bride? Do they get "member" status or are they treated like a renter?

Oddly enough, the contract actually defines a gap between renters of the room via a DVC member, and gifted occupants of the room (and I'm assuming that the rez for a honeymoon would be a "gift" not a "rental"). But it would be very very hard for Disney to enforce in any way, as you reference.

rom my view as an outsider, it seems somewhat unfair to DVC members if they can't reserve a room when they want while a non-member can simply because they rent from an owner who books and then never uses the reservation.

At the end of the day, the nonmember who is renting is not "reserving a room." The OWNER is reserving a room. And it would be very hard for Disney to define who is a renter and who is not, and renting and letting others stay on your points is expressly permitted by contract. It would be very difficult for Disney to change that part of the contract. It's not a section with any clauses with wiggle room.
 
yes, but it might give those who own at very popular resorts just a bit more breathing room when trying to secure 'their home' at the 11 month window. It is not uncommon at all to be shut out especially for the less expensive rooms.

situation is not quite as bad compared to increasing reports of ticket brokers sucking up tickets to popular events, but in the same ballpark imo.

then, there's the issue of revenue paid to the broker for their services, which seems contradictory to the no profit thing as to selling points expressed by DVC.:confused3Not having a law degree, could be wrong on this count. Realize many love these services, both members and renters...me, no so much.

I've seen the argument expressed that a member is ultimately entitled to use their points as they see fit. True, but only if they adhere to whatever rules, enforced or otherwise stated. My thoughts are that a combo of two factors is in play: speculative bookings (that may be released relatively last minute) or a member booking directly (upon direction of a broker's client) . Regardless, both effectively decrease the pool of rooms/chance a member has to be enjoying their home resort.

Note that the above is JMHO but coming from a BWV member who is unable to walk her early October reservation she needs due to use year restrictions. I didn't run into issue booking that same week every year at the 11 month window until the professional brokers started to become more common and SSR was built. Other than people becoming more savvy as to booking, I can think of no other factors in play but it's frustrating, no matter the cause.:bitelip:

The modern problem of having trouble getting a reservation at 11 months out for Boardwalk standard or boardwalk view during F&W has little to nothing to do with brokers, violation of any rule against profiting from renting points,or SSR having been built:

1. Brokers today typically operate via putting together an owner with renter with the owner actually making the reservation. Broker's are not known to get those reservations that are extemely difficult for even owners to get at 11 months out; the reason: they don't get owners who want to rent and also are willing to walk a reservation or go online exactly at 8 a.m. at 11 months out to make a reservation and then not have a rental if they cannot accomplsh it, i.e., owners do not want to put up with that hassle just to rent.

2. No one from SSR can make a reservation at Boardwalk until 7 months out. The only impact SSR has on that is that Boardwalk owners now know it is difficult to get other near park resorts during F&W at 7 months out and thus lean more towards reserving 11 months out at BWV.

3. An owner can rent a reservation by setting up the reservation using his own points in the name of the renter. That is usually what brokers arrange. There is no rule prohibiting owners from doing that and doing it for a profit. If Disney were to adopt one, it would be acting illegally, not the owners. The only rule is that members cannot transfer points to another owner for monetary value. The reason for the rule is so that Disney will not get caught in the middle of transfer transactions with someone complaining about Disney as the middle man if the transaction goes wrong and money is involved. But the rule is irrelevant to brokers who do rentals as described above which do not inviolve the act of transferring points.

4. The actual reasons why BWV standard and boardwalk view studios are now difficult to get even at 11 months out during Food & Wine are the following:

(a) Disney set up the resort to have only 15% boardwalk and 18% standard view, meaning the rooms most desired are low in number. Thus on that issue, Disney is at fault in choosing to make the most desired rooms low in number.

(b) F&W and Halloween Parties have become more and more popular as years progressed. It is Disney who created those, not brokers.

(c) The DVC population has now aged to the point that large numbers of owners, particularly at BWV, no longer have to travel based on the school schedules of their children and there has been a massive shift toward those owners reserving in the Fall when points are low (it is Disney who created the point requirements), weather is perfect, and they can get the fall events.

(d) From the beginning Disney has sold low number, 25 or more, point add-ons to owners. Although Disney kept minimums for new purchasers higher for a while, such as at 160 points, that essentially died with the Great Recession when Disney started lowering points needed by new purchasers to at times as low as 50 and for some time now 100. The Great Recession also led to a huge number of defaults that allowed Disney to foreclose and then resell the previosuly larger ownerships at clips of 50 or 100 points to new purchasers, including at Boardwalk. Meanwhile existing owners, including many who found they needed to downsize their ownerships, also sold more and more points as a result of the Great Recession in the resale market, very often selling those 25 to 75 point add-ons to new purchasers for a little more per point than larger contracts. The effect is that there is now a much larger percentage of owners at BWV than pre-Great Recession who have only enough BWV points to afford studios. (Disney is once again signficantly the cause for lowering its mimimum point requirements to new purchasers.)

(e) The modern problem relating to getting BWV standard and boardwalk view at 11 months out during F&W is a studio problem -- 2BRs are effected but that is only because most everyone is trying to reserve studios -- and that problem is the direct result of factors (a) through (d) above, with Disney and not any brokers being one of the main causes of the problem. Thus, if one wants to aim complaints about the 11 month reservation issue that exists today at BWV for F&W, the complaints should be aimed at Disney rather than brokers.
 
Last edited:
Rumor posted on Facebook today was that Disney will be putting rules in places to prevent brokers from renting points, instead requiring owners to do rentals privately. This is due to reservations being made during busy seasons and then being canceled.

The story I've heard is that this will go into effect in August.

Anyone else heard this or have an opinion on it?


This doesn't even sound like rental brokers in the sense that we know them. As stated they are not booking speculative reservations then cancelling later if they don't rent. They are simply helping a member do what they could do on their own but making the process easier.

This does however sound like the listings you see on Ebay where you can rent actual reservations for the hard to get times and resort locations. This is speculative booking.

What Facebook page, a personal one or business?
 
This is silly. To get a reservation at 11 months the owner has used their points. Whether for them or someone else, they used their points. It's not like someone somehow snuck in and is a guest above and beyond the point allotment. Whether I'm in the room, my family is in the room, a friend is in the room, or other. I have used my points. I no longer have those points to use later.

We just booked a dedicated 2BR standard view at BLT over Christmas 2016 for 11 nights. It wasn't an issue.
 
This is silly. To get a reservation at 11 months the owner has used their points. Whether for them or someone else, they used their points. It's not like someone somehow snuck in and is a guest above and beyond the point allotment. Whether I'm in the room, my family is in the room, a friend is in the room, or other. I have used my points. I no longer have those points to use later.
Exactly. No matter who uses the points, the same amount of points will be used.
 
I'm not a DVC owner and never rented points. From my view as an outsider, it seems somewhat unfair to DVC members if they can't reserve a room when they want while a non-member can simply because they rent from an owner who books and then never uses the reservation. DVC members should have priority over non-members, IMHO.

DVC owners do have priority over non owners as only an owner can make a reservation. If that owner chooses to rent that reservation out that is their choice and it is expressly allowed by the DVC terms and conditions.

The person who has priority in DVC is the person who gets the room booked first, this is fair as all owners have the same chance of booking at 11 months.
 
If Disney is benefited by changing rules and restricting rentals they will do so. They changed the resale rules and in the past they changed the associate member rules due to renting.

Question is, is there a benefit that will make Disney change the rules and if they do it will be "due to member feedback".

:earsboy: Bill
 
The problem is many DVC owners go to make a reservation and can't and have to go on a waitlist and that is stressful, I know we have had to do it. As owners, you would like to make a reservation and not have to worry about waitlists due to people holding then cancelling reservations. I am not saying some waitlist are bad, they are needed and if made by owners who then need to cancel, OK and no problem. Some new owners are already complaining they can't make a reservation at their home resort at the 11 month window and I am sure this has a lot to do with it. For us, we were upset when we could not make a reservation at our 11 month window and had to waitlist for it, it came thru but we worried every day until it did...smjj

I really don't think being locked out of your home resort at 11 months has much to do with renters. More likely demand from owners than renters.

The brokers model is no changes and no cancellations so I don't see why brokers would lead to holding and cancelling. Brokers ask you to book a specific reservation then they won't allow changes or cancellations.

being locked out at 11 months is more likely owners walking.
 
If Disney is benefited by changing rules and restricting rentals they will do so. They changed the resale rules and in the past they changed the associate member rules due to renting.

Question is, is there a benefit that will make Disney change the rules and if they do it will be "due to member feedback".

:earsboy: Bill

I really cannot see how it impacts disney in the slightest if I couldn't go and couldn't rent my points I'd donate them to friends or family. Someone would be in that room.
 
I really cannot see how it impacts disney in the slightest if I couldn't go and couldn't rent my points I'd donate them to friends or family. Someone would be in that room.

Doesn't matter what you or I think, it only matters what Disney thinks. Disney doesn't like businesses that make money because of them. (Unless they are getting paid)

:earsboy: Bill
 
I think online booking has changed a lot of things too. I just don't think brokers have much, if anything to do with it. But I doubt this rumor anyway. As I'm not sure how they would know.
 
I really cannot see how it impacts disney in the slightest if I couldn't go and couldn't rent my points I'd donate them to friends or family. Someone would be in that room.

The specific issue from Disney's POV is that they make money on breakage (when people don't use all their points and let them expire, Disney rents out the rooms for cash). Breakage revenue up to 2.5% of total resort operating budget goes back to the owners to offset dues. Everything over that amount goes to Disney. We don't know how much money Disney makes from breakage, but certainly they are making money. Every resort has hit the 2.5% in every year I've looked at. If owners have other avenues for using their points (i.e. renting) that potentially reduces the number of unused points. Disney has to weigh that potential extra revenue against the negative feelings caused by adding even more restrictions.

All that said, I have a hard time imagining what restrictions they could add that would affect the situation significantly, and would be allowed by the condo declarations and Florida timeshare law.
 
being locked out at 11 months is more likely owners walking.

I agree, happened to me. Oh well so sad, too bad, lesson learned. The next time I want what I know is a very desirable time and specific unit I will take the time to learn the walking procedure. Doesn't mean I support or like the process but unless there is a way to stop it and that is applied you just got to roll with it. In the end it doesn't have anything to do with "Brokers" (as in the common use of the term here on the DIS). Maybe they really mean those owners that are really commercial renters/brokers selling/listing on eBay, where the listing is out there all year because they are asking too much and ends up back in inventory 31 days out. I wouldn't cry if that type of activity received more scrutiny.
 
The specific issue from Disney's POV is that they make money on breakage (when people don't use all their points and let them expire, Disney rents out the rooms for cash). Breakage revenue up to 2.5% of total resort operating budget goes back to the owners to offset dues. Everything over that amount goes to Disney. We don't know how much money Disney makes from breakage, but certainly they are making money. Every resort has hit the 2.5% in every year I've looked at. If owners have other avenues for using their points (i.e. renting) that potentially reduces the number of unused points. Disney has to weigh that potential extra revenue against the negative feelings caused by adding even more restrictions.

All that said, I have a hard time imagining what restrictions they could add that would affect the situation significantly, and would be allowed by the condo declarations and Florida timeshare law.

How about a $95 convince fee, a resort parking fee or some other fee for non-members. Disney added the $95 booking fee and didn't say a word, apparently that's legal.

:earsboy: Bill

 

















DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter DIS Bluesky

Back
Top