Rumor Alert: ADR's

[dpuck1998]

Just to add a little fuel to the fire.

I was in Chicago this weekend, booked at a VERY POPULAR and expensive restaurant in downtown Chicago. Not only did I have a CC hold, they called me on my cell around noon that day and when I arrived I waited almost 45 mins to be seated.

 

[DisneyKevin]

I still think it's a good idea.

If you want a reservation, leave a credit card hold and agree to pay a penalty for not showing / canceling.

If you are willing to take your chances and eat when and where you can find a seat....then there is no problem.

This might have multiple benefits....

- Less people on the phone with Disney Dining
- Less stress about planning what you want to eat 6 months in advance
- Less double booking
- Better chance of getting a walk up seat.

Yup....I still think it's a good idea

 

[UrsulasShadow]

Rex, I can't even understand most of what you're trying to say here, and I give Kevin all the credit in the world for trying to sort through it, but I think that one of the points of this whole thing is that tables are being HELD and are kept EMPTY because of the ADR system. I think they only have a certain number of tables for walkups. That number is (I'm guessing here...I really don't know how they work it) probably determined by how many ADRs they have that day. IF all the tables are theoretically filled by ADRs, there are NO tables available for walkups. If the ADRs never show, those tables remain unfilled.

My guess (again, I don't know) is that after a certain time, if they tried to fill the missed ADR table with a walkup (let's say after 10 minutes), that throws off the time estimate for that table in the system. So a table slated for ADRs is now filled by a walk-up, carrying over into the next ADR slot. Multiply this times however many no-shows there is, and it negates the usefulness of the entire ADR system.

Reducing the number of non-used ADRs with even the THREAT of a CC charge would keep things moving much more smoothly, and more tables filled.

 

[wilde_oscar]

If a manager of a restaurant is sitting there with a room full of empty tables because no one is showing up for their reservation, it is not the reservation system that is broken.

I just don't buy it that they are leaving tables sit empty for a reservation at the restaurants that are busy. Could Le Cellier get a CC hold for a reservation? Yes. Do they have to? No. Why? Because people who get that reservation show up for that reservation. Could Spoodles get a CC hold for a reservation? No. Because it isn't that great a place to eat in the first place.

Saying that Spoodles had no reservtion and was fully booked while no one was eating there on a nice day does not directly equate to the reservation system being broken... cause Spoodles is not that great a place to eat. If Le Cellier was empty because no one was showing up for a reservation on a nice day... well that would be something. But even that wouldn't happen because if they were empty or have spare tables, they could tell any of the hundreds (and I would guess hundreds, because when you are waiting for your table you hear it over and over that they have no walk ups) that they could be seated right away. For a good day in the parks, no one is gonna wonder over to Spoodles and walk up for a table.

Adding a CC hold to all the reservation is going to have unintended consequences for WDW dining that will result in fewer people making reservations at sub par restaurants. The places that were empty, will still be empty... the places that are busy will still be busy. And the added cost of having to take the CC hold lowers the profit margin. Much like automagicly including the tip in the dining plan lowered the bar for service when using a former version of the dining plan. If they want to fix the system, and make it completely fair so you can't game the system at all they would get rid of reservations and make it all walk up, which creates other problems.

Have you ever heard the expression, "Democracy is a terrible form of government, but it is better than the others?" The system as it is now is terrible, but it is better than it would be to force CC hold for places that don't have excellent reviews and a lot of business already.

I realize it is a difficult concept to follow. Following the logic that Spoodles is empty while they have no reservations means the reservation system is broken is specious logic. But hang with me here, if Spoodles was a great restaurant with a large following serving great food with great service ya know kinda like Le Cellier... would the restaurant be empty when the reservation book was full?

 

[cathie1327]

There are a lot of different reasons I think a CC hold would be a good idea, but I don't want to really walk into the the line of fire...sooo...I'll share some other thoughts I have....

Isn't it possible for a cast member to see how many reservations you have for any given day? Here's my thoughts....pretty much anyone eats a max of 3 meals a day, especially at table service places, because in general they give you a lot of food. (or at least that's what we found on our trip).....I wonder if they could limit the amount of ADR's to 3 a day?

Also something else to think about...if the CM on the phone can see your ADR's and when and where they are for, could there maybe be a rule that there has to be at least an hour in between each?

Now, of course, any of these alternatives doesn't account for people who will make reservations under different names or people in their party, which is, of course, abusing the system.

I think the biggest thing that gets me is whether the tables are empty or not, it's just plain rude. Someone who's holding a reservation because they MIGHT want to go there is taking it away from someone who really WANTS to go there. Imagine telling your 5 year old you couldn't go to Chef Mickey's because there are no reservations, only to find out later that it was because someone booked an ADR and didn't use it...now of course there's no way to really find out if that was the case, but it happens quite often, so when you can't secure a reservation you REALLY want, it has to cross your mind that that is the case....

Also, on the note of life happening...I think (at least I hope) Disney will understand that things happen. Given that the problem is people just not showing up and the restaraunt not knowing why, or if they're late or what the situation is....I think they would rather have you call even just 15 minutes ahead of time to say you're not going to make it than just not show up.

 

[wilde_oscar]

If you want a reservation, leave a credit card hold and agree to pay a penalty for not showing / canceling.

OK. but the places that are not busy now, will still not be busy because people are not going to want book with the possibility of a penalty at mediocre places to eat.

If you are willing to take your chances and eat when and where you can find a seat....then there is no problem.

So when you walked in to Spoodles, with the reservations booked full, and the restaurant was empty, they refused to seat you? If they refused to seat you because they already had all the tables booked for reservations that people were not showing up, that is a management issue.

If a restaurant with reservations that no one is showing up for is turning away walk ups, they are just stupid. The places that are busy can turn away walk ups, because everyone is going to show up for that reservation.

It is easy to do a walk up and sit down to dinner at a place no one wants to eat.

This might have multiple benefits....

- Less people on the phone with Disney Dining
- Less stress about planning what you want to eat 6 months in advance
- Less double booking
- Better chance of getting a walk up seat.

Yup....I still think it's a good idea

The places that are busy and hard to get a reservation will still be busy and hard to get a reservation even with the CC hold. The places that are not busy will still be not busy even with the CC hold.

- More stress about where you are eating 6 months in advance with a penalty for not showing up if your kid gets sick. The popular restaurants will be booked full at 6 months out just like they are now.

- The number of people double booking is not what is causing the busy places to be busy and not have reservations available. Double booking is a non-issue.

- The Busy restaurants will still be hard to get a walk up because everyone is still going to show up for their reservation. The not busy restaurant will still not be busy because people are not walking up.

- The reservation lines will be just as busy with people asking questions and not booking when they find out about the penalty... and the people that are making reservations will take longer to make that reservation because of the added time to repeat back the credit card number so many times and the number of disclaimers they have to read about transportation time. Then add the people that call to cancel their reservations to the mix and you have more people on the line.

I just don't believe you are thinking it all the way though. People defended the automagic tip on a former version of the meal plan in much the same way... saying that the tip didn't lead to mediocre or lousy service at lousy places to eat. I say you have to be practical about how you consider what you do when you make these changes. There is a cost associated, and the change of adding a CC hold to every reservation is not going to change the places that are full where you can't get a reservation, and it is not going to change the places where you can walk up and be seated. It will just add administrative costs with out making the lousy restaurants full.

 

[DVCsince02]

How about PIE? Would you like some PIE?

 

[dpuck1998]

How about PIE? Would you like some PIE?

Ohh...Pie...what kind? I'm starving!

 

[msce2]

I have to agree with wildeoscar here. There are certain restaurants that are worthy of a CC hold. And most of them (IE: CRT and HDDR) that are worthy already require a hold. I don't think it would be worth it to go straight across the board and say every TS needs to have the CC Hold. And believe me the nightmare that would ensue when people were charged with not showing for a reservation would tie up the phone lines they would have to hire more people. And I could almost guarantee you that when most people see the charge for the missed ressie or realize that they missed the ADR they will be calling to say that they were sick or had an emergency. Regardless of whether this was actually the case or not. It's a catch 22 for WDW because if you say well no matter what the situation you will be charged then no one will make ressies bc how can you guarantee that an emergency will not arise (and WDW looks unreasonable), but if you provide an out well then people will just abuse the system.

My personal opinion is that this needs to be selective to the restaurants who are experiencing the most difficulty.

 

[cathie1327]

How about PIE? Would you like some PIE?

Some warm cherry pie sounds wonderful right now...... it's snowing and FREEZING here!!!!

 

[DisneyKevin]

OK. but the places that are not busy now, will still not be busy because people are not going to want book with the possibility of a penalty at mediocre places to eat.

Theory...not fact. Whether you like a place or not, most Disney restaurants are still crowded to the point that non-Disney restaurants would kill for that level of business.

So when you walked in to Spoodles, with the reservations booked full, and the restaurant was empty, they refused to seat you? If they refused to seat you because they already had all the tables booked for reservations that people were not showing up, that is a management issue.

That's not what I said. They were happy to seat us. The folks on the Disney Dining line are in a call center at the north end of I-Drive...no where near Disney property. They work with a computer screen. They see that a restaurant is full and tell you "nothing available". It's a bright shiny day and you show up at the said full restaurant to find it empty. Folks got busy and didnt keep their reservations. The problem is not the folks walking up and being turned away because the tables are already reserved. I agree that would be stupid management. The problem is the people NOT walking up because Disney Dining is telling them that there is no availability.

If a restaurant with reservations that no one is showing up for is turning away walk ups, they are just stupid.

See above. Restaurants are not turning away walk ups when there are empty tables. Disney Dining is discouraging walk ups by telling people there is no availability.

It is easy to do a walk up and sit down to dinner at a place no one wants to eat.

Then you should have no worries about not having an ADR. As long as there is all this availability then the CC hold is a moot point. If you are certain that the restaurant at which you choose to dine will not be crowded....dont make an ADR.

The places that are busy and hard to get a reservation will still be busy and hard to get a reservation even with the CC hold. The places that are not busy will still be not busy even with the CC hold.

See above

- More stress about where you are eating 6 months in advance with a penalty for not showing up if your kid gets sick. The popular restaurants will be booked full at 6 months out just like they are now.

I agree...but the folks that have left a CC hold will either show up / cancel and then their table might be available to someone that does walk up or free up some of that time that people who did show up for their reservations are waiting

- The number of people double booking is not what is causing the busy places to be busy and not have reservations available. Double booking is a non-issue.

This is strictly opinion and not fact.

The Busy restaurants will still be hard to get a walk up because everyone is still going to show up for their reservation. The not busy restaurant will still not be busy because people are not walking up.

See above.

The reservation lines will be just as busy with people asking questions and not booking when they find out about the penalty... and the people that are making reservations will take longer to make that reservation because of the added time to repeat back the credit card number so many times and the number of disclaimers they have to read about transportation time. Then add the people that call to cancel their reservations to the mix and you have more people on the line.

Solving the hold time issue is a completelt different discussion.

I just don't believe you are thinking it all the way though. People defended the automagic tip on a former version of the meal plan in much the same way... saying that the tip didn't lead to mediocre or lousy service at lousy places to eat. I say you have to be practical about how you consider what you do when you make these changes. There is a cost associated, and the change of adding a CC hold to every reservation is not going to change the places that are full where you can't get a reservation, and it is not going to change the places where you can walk up and be seated. It will just add administrative costs with out making the lousy restaurants full.

I have thought it through and I still think it's a good idea.

 

[wilde_oscar]

Just to add a little fuel to the fire.

I was in Chicago this weekend, booked at a VERY POPULAR and expensive restaurant in downtown Chicago. Not only did I have a CC hold, they called me on my cell around noon that day and when I arrived I waited almost 45 mins to be seated.

the cc hold did not cause the place to be popular and expensive...they can get the cc hold because it is very popular and expensive. The logic does not hold up in reverse. Ya gotta put your causes and effects in the right places. CRT isn't expensive and booked solid because of the food, it is because of the location and meet and greet.

Spoodles wasn't empty because the reservations book was full... it was empty cause it was a nice day, and it doesn't draw a crowd on a nice day. If they made Spoodles a walk up only, it would still be empty on nice days. On that same day, Le Cellier was full and turning away walk ups, because they do that everyday, a cc hold won't change that.

 

[dpuck1998]

the cc hold did not cause the place to be popular and expensive...they can get the cc hold because it is very popular and expensive. The logic does not hold up in reverse. Ya gotta put your causes and effects in the right places. CRT isn't expensive and booked solid because of the food, it is because of the location and meet and greet.

Spoodles wasn't empty because the reservations book was full... it was empty cause it was a nice day, and it doesn't draw a crowd on a nice day. If they made Spoodles a walk up only, it would still be empty on nice days. On that same day, Le Cellier was full and turning away walk ups, because they do that everyday, a cc hold won't change that.

I don't think I said or implied that! I was just making a statement that other places do this also. Not just Disney. The argument about popularity is a separate beast.

 

[wilde_oscar]

then solve the problem by making every restaurant a walk up and you will not be seated until your entire party is ready.

now I hope they do goto credit card hold for every reservation... just so I can say I told you so. gravity, relativity, and evolution are all theory... pretty sound theories I would add.

 

[UrsulasShadow]

There are those restaurants that are very popular in every park, no matter the weather or time of year. There are those people who, not knowing which park they will be in, will book their favorite restaurant in each park. This will leave 3 very popular restaurants with full bookings in the system, when it should be 3 availabilities for someone else who CALLS for them, not walks up. This is where the CC hold would come in handy.

Releasing those ADRs after a certain time to walkups would be fine for the walkups, but unfair to those who would call for ADRs, and would mess up the timing of ADRs in that restaurant. I still think the CC hold is a good idea. It would discourage multiple ADRs, which I do believe to be a huge issue for diners. Sure, WDW may still make money, but if it makes the Dining Plan unpopular to make it so very difficult to get ADRs, that may encourage people to dine offsite. That is something that WDW would want to discourage at any cost.

 

[DISNEYNV]

Yes! I really hope they implement this when making ADRs at Disney! It just makes sense Perhaps it will help the ADR "vampires" plan accordingly and in turn allow others who really desire a specific ADR to get the one they want not just think they MIGHT want that day!

 

[WaltD4Me]

My problems with the CC hold on ADR's are many.

1. Disney would have to have CLEAR rules on this and all the CM's would need to know these rules and all give the same information as the reservation rep next to them. (this kills it right here for me)

2. There are SO many things that can happen at Disney that is totally out of your control that can make you miss an ADR. I do not double book, I plan well and I have missed ADR's (not many) that I had every intention of honoring for reasons I had no control over.

3. To me, this adds MORE stress to my vacation. I'm already concerened about making ADR's, planning to make sure we get there on time, but to me it's more stressful if now you have to be worried about being charged if you can't make it. I admit to cancelling ADR's just an hour or 30 minutes beforehand. Unexpected things come up...once we were walking by POC and the Jack Sparrow show started, I couldn't drag my nieces away and didn't want to, so I called and cancelled our ADR because I knew we wouldn't make it. How do you allow for "magic" with a CC hold policy?

4. Will Disney have a way to verify and "forgive" a missed ADR charge if you miss it because of a reason that is their "fault?" Stuck on a ride? Bus broke down? Lack of buses? I know these things don't happen often, but they do happen. I got held up at AK last trip because my ticket wouldn't read, I had to wait in a quite a long line at Guest Services to get it fixed, I didn't have an ADR, but should I have been charged if I did and missed it over the ticket problem?

And yes, I know other restaurants like the one in Chicao do the CC hold, I can think of two here that do it, but that is ONE meal you are planning for, chances are much better than you will make that
reservation. The odds of missing a reservation go way up when you are booking 5 to 10 of them on a vacation. I'm not talking about double bookers or people who abuse the ADR system either. Good planning and intentions can't guarantee you are going to make every ADR on vacation.

I agree that Disney needs to do something and I admit I don't know what that is, but I just don't think a CC for all ADR's is the way to go.

 

[BriarRosie]

I still agree with the idea, and I've even had to put down a credit card to hold a reservation at California Grill. I would completely understand if they'd charge me a no-show fee due to the amount of people who want to dine there vs. amount of ADRs available.

I think Kevin hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that people won't try to get a walk up if they are told there is no available dining times for that venue that day.

I know I wouldn't bother, figuring I'd be wasting my time.

And double bookings? Just check the Restaurant board. Anyone just asks about considering double booking, and the swarm of naysayers will jump all over the poor person asking. (I know this because I just witnessed such a posting over the weekend.) I frown upon it, but I will at least be respectful to the person about disagreeing with it.

There are people who have gleefully post that they had multiple ADRs for a single meal time and just picked the one they felt like keeping. That essentially shuts out any other parties who wanted to dine at the other location(s) they didn't keep. Most of the time they do cancel the ADR, but still, I'm sure plenty of people don't.

Disney has caught people double booking and canceled their ADRs, which then makes those who double book find a different way around "the system"

I definitely support a potential change requiring a credit card hold.

 

[wilde_oscar]

Theory...not fact. Whether you like a place or not, most Disney restaurants are still crowded to the point that non-Disney restaurants would kill for that level of business.

You are trying to discount logic by calling it a theory.

At busy times of year all the restaurants are busy and reservations are important because with out one you have no chance of getting seated, this is when demand exceeds supply. When demand exceeds supply the credit card hold doesn't matter, the seats will be filled even at lousy restaurants.

At lower occupancy times of year when supply exceeds demand the credit card hold doesn't matter because you can walk into the lousy restaurants and be seated. At lower occupancy times of year the locations that are always busy, will still be busy... the cc hold doesn't matter because they don't take walk ups and everyone is showing up for the reservations that were made 6 months ago.

It is hard to get reservations at some locations no matter the time of year. The credit card hold doesn't matter because people keep the reservation they made 6 months prior, and if there does happen to be an extra table they can fill it with a walk up. The busy locations get walk up requests even when Disney Dining is telling them there is no availability. The lousy locations where people didn't feel a need to keep the reservation don't get the walk ups because they are lousy restaurants. People will just take Disney Dinings word for it because the place is not worth the effort to walk over and ask for a walk up.

That's not what I said. They were happy to seat us. The folks on the Disney Dining line are in a call center at the north end of I-Drive...no where near Disney property. They work with a computer screen. They see that a restaurant is full and tell you "nothing available". It's a bright shiny day and you show up at the said full restaurant to find it empty. Folks got busy and didnt keep their reservations. The problem is not the folks walking up and being turned away because the tables are already reserved. I agree that would be stupid management. The problem is the people NOT walking up because Disney Dining is telling them that there is no availability.

So the day of... when people start not showing up, there are frantic calls of folks trying to book? If it is a nice day, and the location has no drawing power, they could put characters in costumes and parade them around and still not get a crowd... oh wait, they did that at liberty tree tavern... lousy food, couldn't draw a crowd, throw in some characters, bang you have a busy place where people keep their reservations. So again, even if Spoodles were to delete all the reservations on the books, and show availability, it would still not be busy because it does not have drawing power on a nice day. If Spoodles didn't take reservations and was a walk up, it would not be busy on a nice day because it does not have drawing power. Just because it is a theory doesn't make it any less true.

See above. Restaurants are not turning away walk ups when there are empty tables. Disney Dining is discouraging walk ups by telling people there is no availability.

and people would still not be walking up to restaurants that have no drawing power on nice days regardless of the reservations book. and people will still be walking up and asking if there are any tables at le cellier when they are being told there is no availability

Then you should have no worries about not having an ADR. As long as there is all this availability then the CC hold is a moot point. If you are certain that the restaurant at which you choose to dine will not be crowded....dont make an ADR.

the places that will take you as a walk up are places I don't really want to eat. I have willingly put down the cc hold for cali grill and some other places that require it. There will never be a day that I would put a cc hold for lousy Chinese food. During the busy weeks of easter, spring break, thanksgiving, christmas and new years... if the only reservation you can get is 9 dragons then by all means put down the card for a hold... I would drive over to McDs or get a burger at counter service instead of putting down the cc hold cause I can get lousy Chinese food at home for half the cost.

See above

how about 'sea' above... I can try to demonstrate that lousy restaurants get less patrons while eating sad crab cakes with nemo and friends under the sea while actually eating nemo's friends.

I agree...but the folks that have left a CC hold will either show up / cancel and then their table might be available to someone that does walk up or free up some of that time that people who did show up for their reservations are waiting

if they don't show up, the table is still available regardless if they were billed for the cc hold or didn't cancel the reservation. Popular places will fill the spot with a walk up that decided to ask anyway... less popular places people won't make the effort.

This is strictly opinion and not fact.

there are already safeguards to prevent casual double booking, people that are serious about double booking you won't stop regardless of safeguards... even with cc hold, people can book two reservations wait till they get close enough to their vacation to decide, cancel the one they are not using with in the window of opportunity. Which would leave the same result of giving the appearance a place is full when it is not. Even if reservations become available the day of, the busy places would fill those reservations, or fill those seats with walk ups, the lousy places would not get inquires. (this assumes a low attendance time of year) during the holidays and busy season the seats would get filled with walk ups regardless of what disney dining is telling people, cause people would still be asking.

the number of people double booking that know how to double book are small and the number of people that know how to double book are small. And double booking doesn't matter cause empty tables at popular locations are filled with walk ups, empty tables at lousy restaurants are empty for reasons that have nothing to with reservations other than having reservations about eating at a lousy restaurant.

See above.

sea salt

Solving the hold time issue is a completely different discussion.

I agree

I have thought it through and I still think it's a good idea.

smart people can disagree, so it is a good thing we are both pretty and smart.

 

[SnackyStacky]

If life gets in the way...oh well....give the ticket away or sell it, but there are no refunds.

I just don't see a dinner reservation in the same line as a concert ticket, plane ticket, or hotel reservation. There's insurance you can purchase on some of those things so that if life DOES get in the way, you can get your money back. That's not available, nor do I think it should be available on a dinner reservation.

Further - a concert has a set time - as do flight schedules and even hotels have a schedule for checking in and checking out. You can try your best to make a schedule - but you stopped for something at a snack cart in Epcot and you're not hungry for dinner anymore. That snack has now cost you $30 because a moment of spontenaiety has killed your appetite.

Disney has every right to make money and set forth the policies that they'd like; but, to quote Merry Weather from Sleeping Beauty, "I still think what I thunk before!"

I like the idea in theory.

I will reserve judgement on the implementation until it is actually implemented. And hope that they do it in a way that does leave some wiggle room.