rude airplane couples?

[tlbwriter]

You keep bringing courtesy up, but only in the context of not reclining a seat.

What about the courtesy to let people recline them? Some people suffer from severe back problems and need to recline their seat a little.

A little. That's the key. Recline it a little.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

You obviously didn't bother to read my post. I said people who insist on exercising their right to recline as far as the seat will go are being selfish and thoughtless. And perhaps you missed the word "compromise" in my post. If "compromise" isn't in your personal dictionary, let me help you out - it means that each person gives up a little bit of what they want. You recline a little bit. The person behind you keeps some of their space. Neither gets everything they want, but you're both a little happy, instead of one of you being perfectly satisfied and the other being miserable. New concept for ya?

tlbwriter,

Well, you just called me -- and the majority of the other people on the plane -- "selfish and thoughtless."

As I've pointed out, economy seats don't lean back very far. And, as I've pointed out, the seats recline into their recline zone, not onto the lap of the person behind. In other words, the airline has already built in the "compromise."

When I recline my seat to the reclined positioned, or when the person in front of me reclines his or her seat, nobody is "insist[ing] on exercising their right to recline as far as the seat will go," as though it's some sort of political statement. It's simply a matter of being slightly more comfortable by positioning the seat back into the reclined position -- even though, by the design of the seat, the recline is limited to a very small angle.

Please allow me to ask what you object to... the very slight reduction in knee room? the fact that the headrest is 5 or 6 inches back? or that someone would dare to intrude into space that you consider to be yours?

 

[tlbwriter]

When I recline my seat to the reclined positioned, or when the person in front of me reclines his or her seat, nobody is "insist[ing] on exercising their right to recline as far as the seat will go," as though it's some sort of political statement. It's simply a matter of being slightly more comfortable by positioning the seat back into the reclined position -- even though, by the design of the seat, the recline is limited to a very small angle.

Then I wasn't speaking about you. I was speaking about people who recline even though they are obviously hitting the knees of the person behind them.

 

[SueM in MN]

I'm just saying that some people are saying things that are not accurate. I didn't call anyone delusional. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I don't understand why the people who say that when they recline their seats they are not reclining into anyone's knees think they are accurate, but think those of us who have had our knees reclined onto are not being accurate.
I am glad to hear that apparently when the person in front of some posters recline their seat, it does not hit your knees. I am being accurate when I say that sometimes the person in the seat in front of me does recline their seatback into my knees. Like some of the other posters, I have had the bruises to show for it, but I guess some posters think I am not being accurate.
Whether the seatback does or does not hit into the knees of the person behind depends on the seat pitch, the design of the seat (some of the older seats are very thick; some of the newer seats are thin shells that don't cause at much problem) and whether someone in the past "sprung" the seat, so it actually reclines farther than it is "supposed" to. If the passengers in the row with you have their seats reclined as far back as they will go, and yours goes farther back than theirs, keep in mind that yours might be reclining farther than it was designed to.

I think this
article about air travel courtesy would be good to include at this point.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

I don't understand why the people who say that when they recline their seats they are not reclining into anyone's knees think they are accurate, but think those of us who have had our knees reclined onto are not being accurate.
I am glad to hear that apparently when the person in front of some posters recline their seat, it does not hit your knees.

Actually, in aircraft with a 31 or 32-inch seat pitch (most aircraft that I'm on these days), my knees are always touching the seat in front of me -- regardless of whether the seat in front of me is reclined or not -- even though I'm not slouching. I just have long legs. When the person in front of me reclines, I have to angle my legs a little more.

My point is that there's very little difference in knee room, regardless of whether the seat in takeoff/landing position, reclined, or somewhere in-between. That's because the seat back is hinged near knee level. Yes, it gets a little worse when the seat in front of me is reclined.

I've taken several 9-hour flights in economy this year. Pretty much everyone reclines their seat. I recline my seat.

I liked it better back when American offered More Room Throughout Coach. Alas, they felt it was more important to have more seats on each aircraft than to differentiate themselves from the competition by offering a superior product.

By the way, even though my knees are touching the seat in front of me, I try hard not to apply any pressure with my knees. I don't want to bother the person in front of me. Regardless of what some folks in this thread have accused me of, I really try to be courteous and thoughtful passenger.

 

[TnKrBeLlA012]

OK....I am 5'9 and on my last trip in May the person in front of me decided that they were going to put their seat back and I couldnt even move my legs let me just say that her seat was back up within 30 seconds because there was no way that she was going to be laying on my lap for 2 and a half hours!

I dont see how people dont think its rude to put there seat back....!?!?!?!

 

[SueM in MN]

Actually, in aircraft with a 31 or 32-inch seat pitch (most aircraft that I'm on these days), my knees are always touching the seat in front of me -- regardless of whether the seat in front of me is reclined or not -- even though I'm not slouching. I just have long legs. When the person in front of me reclines, I have to angle my legs a little more.

My point is that there's very little difference in knee room, regardless of whether the seat in takeoff/landing position, reclined, or somewhere in-between. That's because the seat back is hinged near knee level. Yes, it gets a little worse when the seat in front of me is reclined.

There is a difference between a seatback which is touching on your knees and a seatback which is painfully pressing on your knees. I have experienced both. You apparently have not.
That's preobably why I have a problem with people reclining their seats all the way back and you have not.
By the way, I am 5 foot 8 with a 33-34 inch inseam.
My younger DD, who is 5 feet tall and 86 pounds has had her legs trapped in front of her by reclined seats. If a tiny person can't move their legs, it's a problem.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

There is a difference between a seatback which is touching on your knees and a seatback which is painfully pressing on your knees. I have experienced both. You apparently have not.
That's preobably why I have a problem with people reclining their seats all the way back and you have not.
By the way, I am 5 foot 8 with a 33-34 inch inseam.
My younger DD, who is 5 feet tall and 86 pounds has had her legs trapped in front of her by reclined seats. If a tiny person can't move their legs, it's a problem.

I'm 6' 3" with a 34 inch inseam.

If I put my knees straight in front of me, the seat back in front of me would absolutely be pressing onto my knees (regardless of whether the seat back is or isn't reclined). And, much to the discomfort of the person in front of me, my knees would be digging into the seat back.

So I don't put my knees straight in front of me.

The real problem is the seat pitch, not that the seat back can be reclined 5-6 inches (at the top of the seat) to make it slightly more comfortable.

I can't visualize or explain how someone "who is 5 feet tall and 86 pounds has had her legs trapped in front of her by reclined seats" -- so I won't try.

 

[SueM in MN]

I can't visualize or explain how someone "who is 5 feet tall and 86 pounds has had her legs trapped in front of her by reclined seats" -- so I won't try.

That's fine, but it doesn't make it an inaccurate report just because you can't visualize it.

Oh, and by the way, I don't always keep my legs straight out ahead of me. But, by the logic of "if the seat reclines, I can recline it", if my legs are able to be straight out ahead of me, I can have my legs straight out ahead of me.

 

[Anjelica]

sides of the issue from the perspective that if someone is truly in horrible pain that a good caring person would do a thoughtful thing such as not reclining the seat all the way, etc. HOWEVER, the person reclining the seat is not breaking any laws, policies, procedures, etc. the moment the captain allows seats to be reclined and therefore should be allowed to do so.

We have to remember that there are your black and white situations of what is allowed per the letter of the law/policies, etc. and then the grey situations where there is no true right or wrong.

For those that are not paying for guaranteed leg room, lap room, dvd watching room, etc. then you can't expect it to be given to you. Again, this isn't to say that if someone behind me had knee issues (which I myself have horrible knees - several surgeries, etc. etc.) that caused great deals of pain, etc. that a good caring person wouldn't accomodate that person somehow. But folks, who's to say you are going to get that good caring person in front of you (again, only talking about those that have a medical condition, etc. that are truely in pain which are uncomfortable with a reclined seat). Please remember that there is a HUGE difference between pain and discomfort.

Bottomline - we all have opinions and I can respect that. You may hate me for pushing my seat back in recline position or think I am a horrible person for exercising my options provided to me by my purchase of a ticket, but again, it really comes back to economics and paying for what you get. If you want a 100% guarantee that you will be comfortable, etc then you need to obtain that 100% guarantee (via first class ticket or other means of transportation).

Finally, for those ready to lash me for not being one of those folks who doesn't understand what its like to be uncomfortable for several hours due to medical problems - please know that having extremly long legs and an awful right knee to boot (all cartilage gone, arthritis at the age of 28, etc.) - that I know what I am getting into when purchasing my tickets and I know what to expect and what not to expect.

All in all - I hope everyone enjoys their trips to Disneyworld and hopefully they all can be comfortable while flying, driving, etc.

Anjelica

 

[tlbwriter]

Well, you just called me -- and the majority of the other people on the plane -- "selfish and thoughtless."

And you have called a lot of people on this thread liars. When someone tells you they *have* experienced a reclined seat in front of them pressing painfully on their knees, who are you to say they are wrong? Why is *your* experience with reclining seats the only valid one we are to consider? Why would everyone who says this is a problem bother to make up such a lie?

 

[seashoreCM]

Think of it this way. Airplane seats are supposed to be reclined to the extent possible except when someone is getting in or out nearby or when the flight attendants say otherwise.

Plan your seat selection and ticket purchases accordingly.

Still, suddently whacking anyone with anything -- a purse, a garment bag, an elbow, a reclining seatback -- can be regarded as assault.

On some other board, which I shall not name except it begins with "fly..." someone commented that he would be willing to pay 20% more in exchange for 20% more space. You can usually bribe someone to switch seats or not recline for that amount.

 

[auntpolly]

That's fine, but it doesn't make it an inaccurate report just because you can't visualize it.

Oh, and by the way, I don't always keep my legs straight out ahead of me. But, by the logic of "if the seat reclines, I can recline it", if my legs are able to be straight out ahead of me, I can have my legs straight out ahead of me.

I've talked to flight attendants. You are allowed to put your seat back as far as it can go. Blame the airines for cramming too many seats into the plane, not the person in front of you. Yes, flying is uncomfortable. No, you do nnot have the right to tell the person in front of you what they can and cannot do with the seat they purchased.

Yes, it's a drag when the person in front of you wants to recline the whole journey. A couple in front of DD and I did it the whole way from Frankfort to Newark -- they even ate their meals that way. Annoying as that is, it is their right.

 

[ResortsFrmrCM]

Although I am partial to agreeing with the OP, I do understand both sides of the argument. That being said wouldn't it be really cool if a post like this just reminded all of us to be mindful of others. It's that simple. I always try to be aware of others and I believe that in doing so, the same treatment will come back to me. If my 3 year old starts yellling loudly I'll ask her to use "our soft voice" and if she hangs over the back of a booth in a restaurant I force her to turn around and sit on her bottom so that she does not interrupt the diners behind us. These are just examples. I, myself, will not recline my seat if I notice a very tall or overweight person behind me that already looks uncomfortably squeezed into the seat behind me. That's just me though. I figure I can put up with an upright seat for 2 hours if they can put up with being crammed in for 2 hours. Again, just an example.

I don't know if I'm way off base here but I just think we could all think of others a little more and as other posters mentioned "compromise".

 

[auntpolly]

I don't know if I'm way off base here but I just think we could all think of others a little more and as other posters mentioned "compromise".

Oh, I agree completely. I never put my seat the whole way back unless A) it's an over night flight and everyone has gone to "bed", or B) the person in front of me is back the whole way and I am just very, very uncomfortable.

A reminder to be considerate is great, but I still feel that it's wrong to complain to the person on the plane. They really are entitled to put their seat back.

The airlines have caused this problem. It's just a real pain to travel anymore.

 

[SueM in MN]

A reminder to be considerate is great, but I still feel that it's wrong to complain to the person on the plane. They really are entitled to put their seat back.

The airlines have caused this problem. It's just a real pain to travel anymore.

I agree that the airlines have caused a problem, but it is not just a problem for the person being reclined into. Yes, the airline has allowed the seat to recline, but they have allowed it knowing it is reclining into the knee space of the seat behind.
So, yes, they have a right to recline, but I also have a right to sit there with my knees straight ahead if I want (which might interfere with their right to recline). In other words, just because something is provided does not mean there is always a right to use it.
If one person is making another uncomfortable for their own comfort, I think a compromise is in order. One person's right to comfort does not trump another's right for comfort.
As a Social Studies teacher I had in High School said, "Your rights extend until they affect someone else's rights. The place where those rights conflict is cause for either a fight or a compromise."

I would not COMPLAIN (as in yell at the person ahead of me, call them names, etc). I would though ask them nicely if they would mind putting their seat up just a bit so that it is not pressing my knees (as opposed to just touching, which is probably to be expected on the plane). My request was not to not recline at all, just to not recline all the way. Most people are very nice and put it up just a bit - we have reached a compromise. They have given up a little of their recline and I have given up a little of the space I had before they reclined.

I have had experience with people whose response was "I can recline my seat all the way if I want to" and one guy retaliated by leaving his seat fully reclined for the entire trip - even while he was eating and even when he was not in it because he was using the restroom or walking around the plane. That's not using his rights, that's abusing his rights at the expense of other people.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

And you have called a lot of people on this thread liars. When someone tells you they *have* experienced a reclined seat in front of them pressing painfully on their knees, who are you to say they are wrong? Why is *your* experience with reclining seats the only valid one we are to consider? Why would everyone who says this is a problem bother to make up such a lie?

Let's see where I actually questioned the accuracy of what anyone wrote. I wrote, "It is inaccurate to say that seat backs recline onto the laps of the person sitting behind. Seat backs in economy recline about 5 or 6 inches at the top of the seat."

If you are aware of any airline with economy seats that actually recline onto the laps of the person sitting behind (rather than moving a limited distance of 5 or 6 inches at the top of the seat), please post the details.

I've also described that the backward movement is much less at knee level -- an inch at most, though probably more like a half inch -- because the seat backs are hinged at seat level, which is not far below knee level.

If you are aware of any airline with seat backs that somehow move backward substantially more at knee level when the seat back is reclined, please post the details.

I am sure there are cases where the rapid recline of a seat back surprised the person behind, bumping that person in the knees or even in the head (if that person happened to be leaning far forward). When I recline by seat, I do so slowly in consideration of the the person behind me. I would urge others to do the same.

Also, please note that I've tried hard to be polite and respectful in this thread. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the tone of some others in this thread.

I'm getting tired of this thread. I had planned to stop posting any more responses, but I did not appreciate being accused of calling people liars.

I'll finish this reply by once again noting that aircraft seats are designed to recline a limited distance to improve their comfort while the plane is aloft. Some passenegers may not like that. But most passengers do -- and that doesn't automatically make them rude.

 

[auntpolly]

So, yes, they have a right to recline, but I also have a right to sit there with my knees straight ahead if I want...
As a Social Studies teacher I had in High School said, "Your rights extend until they affect someone else's rights. The place where those rights conflict is cause for either a fight or a compromise."

First of all, your knees must be alot stronger than mine, because it's my experience that if those seats are coming back, they are coming back. I wouldn't be injuring myself just to make a point.

And secondly, that sounds nice what your teacher said, but the airlines are on the side of the person who wants to recline. You can ask and all, but what I'm saying is, unfortunately, you are going to get trumped by the guy who wants to come back and sleep.

 

[SueM in MN]

And secondly, that sounds nice what your teacher said, but the airlines are on the side of the person who wants to recline. You can ask and all, but what I'm saying is, unfortunately, you are going to get trumped by the guy who wants to come back and sleep.

Just trying to understand.
So, if I said to the person in front of me who had reclined their seat all the way:
"Excuse me, but your seat is pressing on my knees and it hurts. Would you mind putting it up just a bit?"
Would you think it was rude or justified for them to respond:
"You can ask, but I can recline my seat if I want to. No, I'm not moving it even a bit."

Seems rude to me.

 

[auntpolly]

J
Would you think it was rude or justified for them to respond:
"You can ask, but I can recline my seat if I want to. No, I'm not moving it even a bit."

Seems rude to me.

That depends, but my point is that it isn't the point.

Let's say I'm not feeling well, or I've haven't slept for awhile -- 2 things that happen frequently to travelers. Then I might really need to recline and rest. I'd be thinking, I feel bad about the person behind me, but I really feel awful. If you asked me to come up a little, I'd probably do it, but you'd have no way of knowing how uncomfortable you'd be making me, and it was my right to have it back in the first place.

Like I said, you can ask, but the bottom line is, if the person declines and wants to for, whatever reason, be back the whole way, the airline intends for them to be able to do that, and that's just the way it is.

I've flown alot, and if you let this stuff get to you, you go crazy. You have to really try to make the best of bad situations on planes.