Restricted photography between noon and five p.m.

[MarkBarbieri]

Don't confuse time of day and hard/soft light. Direct sunlight is hard light (assuming that you are on earth) regardless of whether it is sunrise, noon, or sunset. Light is hard when the light source is small relative to the subject. Sunlight is warmer at the ends of the day, but it isn't really softer.

Time of day doesn't matter at all in many Disney situations because many photo opportunities are indoors. The Pirates of the Caribbean looks the same at 9:00 AM, noon, and Midnight.

Noon to 5:00PM is an odd range of times. During the winter, 5:00PM is at or near sunset. Setting aside the abomination of "daylight savings time", noon is the middle of the day. The quality of sunlight changes reasonably symmetrically as you move away from that time. So 8:00 AM light is the same as 4:00 PM light. Once you factor in DST, 9:00 AM is the same as 5:00 PM.

Polarizers don't help much with the sky at noon. They have more of an effect on portions of the sky that are 90 degrees from the sun. At noon, 90 degrees from the sun is the ground, not the sky (except for people shooting down from really high places).

I sometimes bring enormous softboxes with me to soften the sunlight. I call them "clouds". They don't look to great in pictures if you include too many (or make them too big), but they make for an awesome soft light on your subject at any time of the day.

At a seminar put on by Joe McNally (a National Geographic photographer), he made the comment that Nat Geo only wanted landscapes shot right around sunrise or sunset and would just ignore anything else. That doesn't mean that those other shots weren't nice. Nat Geo isn't interested in "nice" pictures. They want each one to be awesome. While you can get some really nice shots at midday, most landscapes will be better in the hour around sunrise/sunset. Once again, that's not a hard/soft light issue. It is a quality of light issue. At times around sunrise/sunset, the dynamic range is lower (they sky isn't so bright relative to sunlight ares of the ground) and the color temperature is different. Hard shadows are useful at that time of day because they give landscapes extra dimensionality.

If you are going to shoot people in bright sunlight, understand the issues and what you can do to deal with them. Avoid hard shadows on faces. I'm not saying that it isn't possible to make them look good, but the odds are against it. Have people step into the shade and then light them with a flash. Have them take off their hat. If you have them stand with the sun at your back, you'll have fewer shadows on their faces, but you'll get squinty looks because they are staring into the sun. If you see a group of passersby wearing white shirts, have them kneel or lay down in front of your subjects so that you can use them as a reflector for fill light.

Sometimes harsh sunlight irritates people and makes them grouchy. Then they start taking threads to seriously and get snippy and combative. In those cases, they should find some shade or go indoors and relax. Once they are relaxed, their posts will probably be nicer and more helpful.

Here are a few shots taken very close to noon on bright, sunny days. They aren't the best shots ever made, but they were good enough for me to keep.

 

[photo_chick]

I guess I'll defer to your art education, all I have is my limited experience to work from and I'm learning all the time.

Don't defer to anyone elses experiences when it comes to learning to make images. Explore things for yourself.

edited to add... (I had to find a shot LOL) Ok wbeem. Back to the original topic before we got sidetracked on what is art. Keeping the camera out between 12 and 5 pm at Disney, right? And why on earth would anyone want to do that?

I'd have missed this. It was shot around 2:45 pm. I don't care if I never make a great image, as long as I can get shots of memories like this. THIS is why I go to Disney. Any good photographs I get are just a bonus.

 

[Experiment_626]

Thanks, Mark — you hit on some of the things I was attempting to say, but you explained them more fully; i.e., it's a quality of light "thing" and sunrise and sunset are usually not that much softer than midday.

Don't defer to anyone elses experiences when it comes to learning to make images. Explore things for yourself.

Agreed. Excellent advice!

Ok wbeem. Back to the original topic before we got sidetracked on what is art. Keeping the camera out between 12 and 5 pm at Disney, right? And why on earth would anyone want to do that?

I'd have missed this. It was shot around 2:45 pm. I don't care if I never make a great image, as long as I can get shots of memories like this.

If it's your kid having a blast on a ride or interacting with a character, though, then that's a bit of a different issue. Even then, you try to work with the light.

See, I think William's earlier comment above would cover what you're talking about. This photo is a captured moment — as you say, that was the opportunity to get that shot. As William said, you can still try to work with or even modify the light (using flash or other methods — especially if you had some idea a shot was forthcoming), but I fully agree with you here — absolutely, don't pass up a unique shot, especially of family, just because the light might not be exactly what you'd like. And sometimes you'll get lucky and everything will be just right!

SSB

 

[wbeem]

Don't defer to anyone elses experiences when it comes to learning to make images. Explore things for yourself.

edited to add... (I had to find a shot LOL) Ok wbeem. Back to the original topic before we got sidetracked on what is art. Keeping the camera out between 12 and 5 pm at Disney, right? And why on earth would anyone want to do that?

I'd have missed this. It was shot around 2:45 pm. I don't care if I never make a great image, as long as I can get shots of memories like this. THIS is why I go to Disney. Any good photographs I get are just a bonus.

You documented a moment. Nothing wrong with that, which is what I initially said. In those cases, you aren't worried about the dappled light on the boy or the distracting background. You caught a moment and it means something to you. We all do that. It's why point & shoot cameras exist, or cell phone cameras. Quick, easy documentation.

 

[wbeem]

While you can get some really nice shots at midday, most landscapes will be better in the hour around sunrise/sunset. Once again, that's not a hard/soft light issue. It is a quality of light issue.

I'm curious. What do you think defines quality of light?

 

[photo_chick]

You documented a moment. Nothing wrong with that, which is what I initially said. In those cases, you aren't worried about the dappled light on the boy or the distracting background. You caught a moment and it means something to you. We all do that. It's why point & shoot cameras exist, or cell phone cameras. Quick, easy documentation.

You also initially said that you can't make art at certain times of the day. Which is where this whole thread jumped the rails.

So you're saying here I should only use my point and shoot or cell phone camera for shots like this? That a DSLR is an inappropriate tool for this type of shot? Because that is what it reads like.

Direct sunlight is hard light (assuming that you are on earth) regardless of whether it is sunrise, noon, or sunset. Light is hard when the light source is small relative to the subject. Sunlight is warmer at the ends of the day, but it isn't really softer.

I'm going to disagree slightly. But it's really more of a slight point of view difference I think. The shadows have a big part in determining hard or soft light. Certain times of the day the shadows feel harder, with sharper and more pronounced edges, than others. Just like they do in different parts of the world. So I do think that mid afternoon light might feel a little harder than magic hour light. The shadows seem to soften when they get longer in that last bit of day or first thing in the morning. The light also comes from a more pronounced direction at sunrise or sunset which changes the feel as well.



I get what was said about Nat. geographic and the landscape shots. That fits with their aesthetic. I don't think that means that you can't make an awesome landscape shot at any time of day. It just means if you want to sell to National Geographic you have to conform to their very well established aesthetic.

 

[WDWFigment]

Here are a few of my noon to 5pm photos from Disney:


The Tempo Bay Resort by Tom Bricker (WDWFigment), on Flickr


Announcing ISO 5571 - Disney Photography Podcast by Tom Bricker (WDWFigment), on Flickr


The Backside of Partners by Tom Bricker (WDWFigment), on Flickr


The Walt Disney Studios - Legends Plaza by Tom Bricker (WDWFigment), on Flickr


Disneyland In Bloom by Tom Bricker (WDWFigment), on Flickr

 

[wbeem]

You also initially said that you can't make art at certain times of the day. Which is where this whole thread jumped the rails.

So you're saying here I should only use my point and shoot or cell phone camera for shots like this? That a DSLR is an inappropriate tool for this type of shot? Because that is what it reads like.

Well, now you're just telling lies. In my opinion, the thread jumped the rails when you pounced on me without provocation. That aside, here's what I wrote.

It depends upon your intent for the shot. If you're capturing a memory, do it when the moment happens.

If you're trying to make art, then avoid harsh shadows in noon daylight. Lighting is everything in a photograph. If you shoot in lousy light, then you get lousy results - when viewed as a work of art.

If it's your kid having a blast on a ride or interacting with a character, though, then that's a bit of a different issue. Even then, you try to work with the light.

There have been plenty of times I've passed up shots because of crappy daylight, but that's because I was trying to capture a scene in the best light.

For the shot you posted, you could have used any camera. I obviously don't care if you use a DSLR, but you could have just as easily taken that photo with an iPhone.

 

[photo_chick]

Dude... I think you're taking an internet discussion a little too seriously. I like a good discussion, which is what I thought this was, but you obviously think it's way more than that. Are you actually as bent out of shape as you sound over this? You may want to consider how intonation and lack of body language make you come across. I'm well aware I can come across as an opinionated know it all so I don't take offense when people disagree with me. In fact I actually like hearing opposing views. Never know, I might learn something new from them. But I do wonder, are you at all aware that you come across as a pompous jerk at times?

 

[wbeem]

Dude... I think you're taking an internet discussion a little too seriously. I like a good discussion, which is what I thought this was, but you obviously think it's way more than that. Are you actually as bent out of shape as you sound over this? You may want to consider how intonation and lack of body language make you come across. I'm well aware I can come across as an opinionated know it all so I don't take offense when people disagree with me. In fact I actually like hearing opposing views. Never know, I might learn something new from them. But I do wonder, are you at all aware that you come across as a pompous jerk at times?

This from the person who jumped on me with a condescending post just because she disagreed with my comments.

 

[meanpc]

WDWFigment - those are some very nice shots. The sky looks really really blue.

As for the other stuff, at some point you just gotta move on. I think points that people were trying to make were totally missed. Im pretty sure it was never said that you should not take a snapshot between 12-5...

 

[zackiedawg]

I missed the bulk of the argument and discussion while actually on a trip to Disney World this past week. I'll simply attempt to add to the discussion with my own personal opinion and experience and avoid the argument altogether as I don't think it needs to continue to divert the thread.

The original post mentioned advice to not shoot between 12 and 5pm and some amended that to mean not to take anything but snapshots if you want good results. I'm of the opinion that you can take artistic, snapshot, serious, casual, family, and/or very good photographs at any time of day or night. While it may be easier during certain times of day when the light makes it essentially nothing more than a P&S action to get awesome looking results, I find with some thought and a little skill and attention, one can get a great photo, even for artistic purposes, during the dead of afternoon when the light is high and harsh. There's more to a photo than light, there are ways of dealing with light to make it better, and a good photographer can get good results even in challenging or poor conditions.

For me, I take photos because I enjoy it, and I take photos when I can take photos. Many times, that happens to be during the hours of 12 to 5pm...if I'm traveling, often those are the hours I have to see and document a place. I'm not content to simply take P&S snaps, so I work on getting photos I'm happy with - I use shade when possible, diffuse the light through leaves, work with angles, play on shadows, polarize to get deeper skies, underexpose for better contrast control and highlight control...whatever is needed to get the shot.

I'd guess that more than 1/2 of all the photos I've ever taken, and a good 1/3 to 1/2 of my entire online gallery, were taken between those hours, or close to it - certainly when the light would not have been considered ideal. I often go birding during those hours. I travel often to Disney and photograph during those hours. I cruise every year and often find myself at ports of call during those hours.

It's up to each person to decide whether to avoid certain hours when photographing. If you find you cannot get good results during those times, and can afford to miss shot opportunities during that time, go ahead and avoid it. If you feel you can only get snapshots during that time and can't get better results, and decide that this time of day is only for P&S for you, then pursue that. But you may also feel more like me, and others, that any time of day is fine for photography if you think and work around the obstacles you're given, and don't want to miss artistic opportunities for a big chunk of daylight just because of other photographers' personal decisions and opinions.

 

[2Tiggies]

If you see a group of passersby wearing white shirts, have them kneel or lay down in front of your subjects so that you can use them as a reflector for fill light.

Love it! Do you think that would work in the parks?

 

[MICKEY88]

I could never put my cameras away between 12 and 5. I wouldn't know what to do with my hands during the 3 o'clock parade.

 

[YesDear]

3:00 huh..... SO that is the time of the afternoon parade!

 

[MICKEY88]

3:00 huh..... SO that is the time of the afternoon parade!

it depends on the time of year

 

[JoeDif]

Carry on

 

[Experiment_626]

it depends on the time of year

And where you're planning to watch it.

SSB

 

[Experiment_626]

There's another consideration if we're talking specifically Disney. There are lots of places in the parks where sunset and sunrise don't penetrate as much as I'd like — trees block the light or the sky, or the best angle on a subject isn't the best for the sky (if you'd otherwise prefer to include it). For example, if I'm shooting the castle from the side, I greatly prefer the view from the Liberty Square bridge area, but you're unlikely to get much of a sunset sky in that view. In addition, when I've tried it, I've found the trees behind me block the magic hour light from hitting the lower section of the castle. I've gotten shots I like under such circumstances, but not what I could imagine I'd get if I had the power to move the sun (or if the axis of the park were east-to-west rather than north-to-south).

On top of that, there are additional practical considerations. Sunset/Magic Hour is a small part of the day. Shooting HDR brackets while trying to time your shots around the crowds, as I often do, takes up big chunks of the time available. As a result, at the very best of times I'm doing really good if I can manage to setup and shoot in three different locations on a single day during that time, and doing that much requires those locations be fairly close together. And sunrise is more often than not inaccessible inside the parks. So I do tend to shoot quite a bit up to 10:30 am and after 4 pm-ish, depending on the time of year. I don't do landscape HDR between noon and very early evening, as a general (but not hard and fast) rule. But I'll shoot family shots any time of day or night.

Most people don't get to go as often as I do, let alone as much as William does. So I can certainly understand wanting to get as much as you can when you can, even if you think the light isn't exactly ideal. Post-processing can help with images taken outside of ideal times — and if we're talking art, then I agree with Frederick Van Johnson — "pixels are born to be punished"! The initial capture is just the raw material from which an image is made. I prefer the ideal capture, but I'll certainly work with something less than that.

SSB

 

[mom2rtk]

3:00 huh..... SO that is the time of the afternoon parade!

it depends on the time of year

And where you're planning to watch it.

SSB

And which time zone you're in!