Rented Points - Need Help

[cmrdgrs]

Anyone who does sufficient research pre-rental to put needed money into a DVC rental would discover all of these points. They are regularly discussed on this board. They are regularly brought up when people ask what are the risks with rentals. There are a few of us who even hit the resorts boards and the budget board to point out these problems when people recommend DVC rentals as a cheap way to do Disney. Again, Caveat Emptor. Renters - unless their contract states otherwise - need to understand they booked a non-refundable room. Not "refundable if a terrorist attack hits and Cinderella's Castle is a pile of rubble." On the other end owners need to take some responsibility to understand that they bought a real estate interest and that they may not get made whole at the end of this - its in your contract - right down to Disney may not operate the parks and if there is a disaster, Disney may not choose to rebuild the resorts.

I'm not sure if we agree or not, but I see your points.

I've stated many times on multiple threads that I honestly don't think that an owner would win in court against a renter who paid them for a room/service that wasn't fulfilled due to the resort being shutdown. As an owner, in essence, I allowed Disney to make the decision to shut the resort down on my behalf. Even though I wasn't a part of the decision I paid to have Disney make this decision for me. The whole idea of a rental being non-refundable due to Covid-19 IMO wouldn't hold water in court. Obviously, not a lawyer, but I do have common sense and to me this is common sense. Renter paid for a room and owner couldn't provide the room.

As an owner who rents their points privately, and has a rental right now on borrowed expiring points (AUG UY), I have contacted my renter (their rental is in July) -- I offered to refund them -- they decided to wait and see what happens. But, if the resort is still closed, I have assured them and intend to, refund the renter all of their rental money even if I lose the points.

 

[Bearval]

Anyone who does sufficient research pre-rental to put needed money into a DVC rental would discover all of these points. They are regularly discussed on this board. They are regularly brought up when people ask what are the risks with rentals. There are a few of us who even hit the resorts boards and the budget board to point out these problems when people recommend DVC rentals as a cheap way to do Disney. Again, Caveat Emptor. Renters - unless their contract states otherwise - need to understand they booked a non-refundable room. Not "refundable if a terrorist attack hits and Cinderella's Castle is a pile of rubble." On the other end owners need to take some responsibility to understand that they bought a real estate interest and that they may not get made whole at the end of this - its in your contract - right down to Disney may not operate the parks and if there is a disaster, Disney may not choose to rebuild the resorts.

If there was a fire or hurricane that destroyed a portion of a resort and DVC decided not to rebuild the owners of the affected rooms would receive an insurance payout based upon the number of points you have and what the destroyed portion was insured for. If you check your contracts it states what room you have an ownership interest in, this is how they would be determined who would receive an insurance payout and then their contract becomes null and void. I am willing to bet it will be far less that what you can sell your points for in the secondary market.

 

[minthorne]

This is all just my opinion. As an owner- if I had rented points at this time I would make my renter whole and then hope that DVC made me whole. I would not make the renter take the hit. That seems wrong to me.

I rent a reservation, not points. I can't understand how people feel they rent points. No one rents points. They find a reservation the renter wants and they secure the reservation with points. Then they rent the reservation with a price based on the points. Any point transaction is between the owner and DVC, not the renter.

Since the reservation is no longer available for me to rent I would feel I need to refund the renter.

 

[crisi]

I'm not sure if we agree or not, but I see your points.

I've stated many times on multiple threads that I honestly don't think that an owner would win in court against a renter who paid them for a room/service that wasn't fulfilled due to the resort being shutdown. As an owner, in essence, I allowed Disney to make the decision to shut the resort down on my behalf. Even though I wasn't a part of the decision I paid to have Disney make this decision for me. The whole idea of a rental being non-refundable due to Covid-19 IMO wouldn't hold water in court. Obviously, not a lawyer, but I do have common sense and to me this is common sense. Renter paid for a room and owner couldn't provide the room.

As an owner who rents their points privately, and has a rental right now on borrowed expiring points (AUG UY), I have contacted my renter (their rental is in July) -- I offered to refund them -- they decided to wait and see what happens. But, if the resort is still closed, I have assured them and intend to, refund the renter all of their rental money even if I lose the points.

I think it isn't nearly so clear. The circumstances are outside the owners control. The owner has made an investment in filling the contract to the best of their ability, and their inability to fill the contract is outside their control. The renter had the ability to buy travel insurance and didn't. Laws vary by state, and most of these agreements cross jurisdictions. But more importantly, you'd have to sue the owner, which is not going to be cheap or easy or quick. My own hotel reservations that are non-refundable during this point in time are non-refundable - the hotels don't seem to be at all worried that I'll win in court. As an owner, I wouldn't be worried either. I'd say "try." But then, as an owner, I rent through a broker because that moves the risk. I'm a big fan of managing risk.

 

[crisi]

This is all just my opinion. As an owner- if I had rented points at this time I would make my renter whole and then hope that DVC made me whole. I would not make the renter take the hit. That seems wrong to me.

I rent a reservation, not points. I can't understand how people feel they rent points. No one rents points. They find a reservation the renter wants and they secure the reservation with points. Then they rent the reservation with a price based on the points. Any point transaction is between the owner and DVC, not the renter.

Since the reservation is no longer available for me to rent I would feel I need to refund the renter.

Yep, I rented a reservation. That reservation isn't there through no fault of mine. Renting points or a reservation doesn't make any difference in how this sorts out in my brain. A renter got a great deal - in part because a DVC reservation carries additional risk over a CRO reservation. A Boardwalk room for $200 a night? And you think that doesn't come with risk? TANSTAAFL.

I admire owners who are going to put their renters financial needs above their own - its nice that you have the economic security to do so. But I don't admire owners who seem to think that EVERY DVC member who rents points should be doing the same - or recommending to renters that they should seek redress. Not everyone is in the same circumstances. The renter is out the money they would have used to take a vacation - you may be asking the owner to put forward the money they are using to pay their mortgage.

 

[cmrdgrs]

I think it isn't nearly so clear. The circumstances are outside the owners control. The owner has made an investment in filling the contract to the best of their ability, and their inability to fill the contract is outside their control. The renter had the ability to buy travel insurance and didn't. Laws vary by state, and most of these agreements cross jurisdictions. But more importantly, you'd have to sue the owner, which is not going to be cheap or easy or quick. My own hotel reservations that are non-refundable during this point in time are non-refundable - the hotels don't seem to be at all worried that I'll win in court. As an owner, I wouldn't be worried either. I'd say "try." But then, as an owner, I rent through a broker because that moves the risk. I'm a big fan of managing risk.

I agree with you. It's complicated for sure. The only way to have this settled in court is to go to court and that's probably not going to happen.

 

[cmrdgrs]

The bottom line in all of this is someone or entity-- owner, renter or broker -- is going to lose money. The question is exactly who will that party be? All have their reasons for doing what they are doing and for doing what they did. On top of that we all have our opinions on whether brokers are good or bad for the market. I don't see them as an asset (personally), but other disagree.

There is nothing but disagreement all the way around in this mess because each party has their own agenda, somewhere in all of this law applies that isn't straight forward, and no one involved wants to lose money. But, someone in this transaction is going to lose money, that's just the cold hard fact of this pandemic. Pretty much anyone and everyone is losing money due to Covid-19.

 

[starry_solo]

@jeffjacklin@yahoo.co - how did you pay the owner? If via credit card and the date for the reservation has passed, see if your credit card company has travel insurance that would cover this? Or file a chargeback and see where it gets you.

 

[clm10308]

This is reason why I will never attempt to rent out my points-too many potential problems. I would rather let them expire.

 

[cmrdgrs]

Thank you for your reply. Looks like we've lost $1200! Magical day indeed...

I know this is a long shot, and you probably don't want to pursue this, but would you consider small claims court? Did you have an agreement/contract of some sort?

 

[crisi]

I agree with you. It's complicated for sure. The only way to have this settled in court is to go to court and that's probably not going to happen.

And each individual case would get settled seperately, some probably in the renters favor, some probably in the owners favor...and if a broker is involved, some in the brokers favor. You still wouldn't have a clear consensus.

 

[sethschroeder]

I rented points. Period.

I didn’t rent points that expired on a certain date.

If the owner decided to use points that expired on a certain date, then that is his problem. Rebook me using points that are still valid (obviously subject to any contract or terms and all that jargon).

You didn't rent points you got a non-refundable reservation.

Obviously many, if not all, owners will disagree with my above comment. But renters have a different point of view.

Except when I rented in the past I knew I was not getting any money back if for some reason I did not make my reservation. I also knew it was slim to none that the reservation would be moved. That is why I got travel insurance to cover my non-refundable portions of trips. If I did get the insurance then the onus on me for anything that might occur.

IF they expire in May 2020 the RIGHT thing to do is to use the following UY points for your reservation.

That is not the right thing to do but that is a extra nice thing to do. A owner should not be out hundreds of dollars because you chose not to read the contract.

Not a great analogy as no one will argue that a hotel that sells you a prepaid non-refundable hotel room gets to keep the money if they don’t provide the room on the day in question.

The whole idea of a rental being non-refundable due to Covid-19 IMO wouldn't hold water in court.

These two I think go together and I think it would be a tricky case for court. Its not the same as a hotel room and execution of the contract was not the renter being in the hotel but simply to deliver the reservation. Disney changing your reservation (ie cancelling) likely could be seen as an act of god and while not written out is similar to the whole "pandemics not included".

There is no right answer in the end just what I personally think. As a renter I wouldn't expect anything back and on the flip side if I was renting out points I am not sure what I would do I view the cheap rental as pass the risk to the renter but I might try to work out a deal with them who knows. I know this will change the rental agreements in the future for sure.

 

[RachStu]

As an owner we have rented out points on the DIS boards for a June 2020 trip using our Dec 2019 UY points. I have offered our renter a full refund in the event that the resort is closed in June or the ability to book for a later date, either this year or next. I wouldn’t feel comfortable keeping their money if the resorts remain closed even though the contract stated it was non-refundable and the renter should have taken out insurance. I have explained that I need to bank our points in July 2020 in order for them not to expire this year and that if they chose to rebook for 2020 and they subsequently cannot travel due to the resort being closed then that would then be at their risk. This seemed the fairest way to proceed to me. We also have a rental villa in France and have given full refunds to renters who were due to travel in May, but whom no longer wish to travel. It’s been difficult financially as those funds had already been committed elsewhere. I just hope people will remember the way we have dealt with them and come back to us in the future. It wouldn’t feel right keeping someone else’s money in the circumstances. We are lucky, however, that this has happened before our banking deadline. It would be an even tougher pill to swallow if it had happened after.

 

[cmrdgrs]

This is great to hear RachStu. It is difficult to give the renter back this money when it has been spent (mine on MFs)

I'm hoping the same RachStu. I have a pretty loyal following of renters. I'm hoping that this just helps for future rentals and keeps it easy for me to rent my points. Kills me to hand money over to a middleman when I don't have to.

 

[RachStu]

This is great to hear RachStu. It is difficult to give the renter back this money when it has been spent (mine on MFs)

I'm hoping the same RachStu. I have a pretty loyal following of renters. I'm hoping that this just helps for future rentals and keeps it easy for me to rent my points. Kills me to hand money over to a middleman when I don't have to.

We are in a very difficult position as we’d intended to use the rental amount to help fund a new contract. We passed ROFR just before the pandemic hit. Couldn’t be worse timing. We live in the UK and the pound took a nose dive against the US dollar so it has been a double whammy. I’ve had to ask our seller to give us an extra 30 days to come up with the funds for the new contract. Hopefully the pound will have regained all of its losses by that point. Either that or we will lose our deposit and be liable for the brokers commission. It’s a lose lose situation either way

 

[cmrdgrs]

We are in a very difficult position as we’d intended to use the rental amount to help fund a new contract. We passed ROFR just before the pandemic hit. Couldn’t be worse timing. We live in the UK and the pound took a nose dive against the US dollar so it has been a double whammy. I’ve had to ask our seller to give us an extra 30 days to come up with the funds for the new contract. Hopefully the pound will have regained all of its losses by that point. Either that or we will lose our deposit and be liable for the brokers commission. It’s a lose lose situation either way

Sorry to hear that RachStu. This pandemic is throwing everyone under the bus. I hope things start to look up for you. Good luck!

 

[striker1064]

This is reason why I will never attempt to rent out my points-too many potential problems. I would rather let them expire.

As an owner who is concerned about growing availability problems, I'm fine with anyone who lets their points expire.

As someone who has rented in the past (and is following these threads now out of interest), this is a weird take. At the very least, you could rent the points and set the money aside in a separate account, untouched, until the renter completes their trip.

 

[conandrob240]

As an owner who is concerned about growing availability problems, I'm fine with anyone who lets their points expire.

As someone who has rented in the past (and is following these threads now out of interest), this is a weird take. At the very least, you could rent the points and set the money aside in a separate account, untouched, until the renter completes their trip.

As someone who rents points regularly for many years, this is kind of silly. This is the one and only time I am having a potential issue (potential because we still don’t know if DVC is going to make it right somehow). It took a once in 100 years pandemic. I think I like my odds to keep renting (but I will be more careful in the future to not rent out points that are that close to expiring again).

 

[Upatnoon]

With DVC changing its rules on expiring points, perhaps that will help renters being told "your rented points expired"

 

[Dracula]

We cannot verify his Use Year, but if he used June UY points, they do expire May 31. Disney is not extending expiration or allowing late banking to the next year.

What he is saying is absolutely consistent with DVC policy and a June UY at this time. Points do have "use by" dates, and it sounds like he rented you points that will expire without recourse.

Actually, Disney just extended June use year points, so you may be able to rebook