Rental Rates/Concerns

[ncligs]

Originally posted by PamOKW
So, please....let's call a truce on any personal attack on Doc. I think the first offense was just a misunderstanding....let's not compound that. Okay, big Disney/DVC hug everybody???

 

[KNWVIKING]

I have got to set aside some time to waste and learn how to use these smiley face things.

 

[DVCPAT]

One of the main advantages of DVC is reservation flexability. I think the system as a whole works great. A renter/friend is an invisable link that Disney really cannot differentiate if they wanted to. Disney does not want to greet guests with a series of questions upon check-in.

The DVC system may not be 100% perfect. Sometimes when you try to correct one problem, you create three new problems.

 

[JOC]

 

[DBBN]

The only other time I was personally attacked by so many people was in the third grade when I was the kid with the shortest haircut!

I started it all when I proposed making two reservations (different size villas) then canceling the one that wasn't needed. Knowing full well that one of them would absolutely be cancelled. Whether I make such a reservation for myself, family, friends or for a renter is immaterial as the end result is the same.

The first thing I do when we make a hole in our schedule to get away is make a reservation or reservations. If just the two of us travel it's easy we reserve a one bedroom. We always secure the accommodations first because they are often the hardest to get but always the easiest to cancel if you do it within the prescribed timeframe. If we intend to invite friends or family we make multiple reservations for the same time period, different size villas. We then invite friends and family and once we know who will join us we know what accommodations we'll need and cancel what is not needed. This might take a few days or even a few months. I refuse to demand our invitees provide an answer on short notice and I refuse to invite anyone when I can't guarantee accommodations. Hence the multiple reservations. If this makes me immoral, rude, inconsiderate or a myriad of other adjectives so be it. See the quote below, Richyams appears better suited to coming up with adjectives than I am.

Originally posted by Richyams

And I think that reserving two rooms for a rentel that is only going to require one, is a thoughtless, self-absorbed, selfish, rotten thing to do to fellow members.

Never have I made multiple reservations with the intent of hurting anyone. Multiple reservations are made for the sole purpose of facilitating travel. If taking full advantage of the benefits of membership to treat friends and family or even rent some points makes me a bore. Then so be it. If any of the posters leveling a personal attack on me believes I'll plan the use of my points around what their future needs might be I won't and I don't expect you to plan around my needs.



Originally posted by KNWVIKING

And like my previous thread stated, being on waitlist is no fun. It "hurts" me if I'm a nervouse wreck...

I agree this is exactly why I reduce my exposure to this situation. To wait for my guests to confirm their intent to travel with us could easily result in the accommodation being wait-listed. I envy those of you who have friends and family who don't mind responding to an invitation on short notice.



Originally posted by CaptainMidnight

DVC was not intended for large rental use, it is intended as family vacation ownership.

Are you sure? The maximum number of points any one individual may own at one resort is 2000 with a maximum of 5000 at all the resorts combined! That's one long vacation or one large family. For that matter in 1995 when we first purchased at OKW and indicated our intentions to own more than the 2000 point limit it was suggested that the contract list only one of our names. Currently my wife owns all our points. The points we buy after she owns 2000 will be in my name. Of course they were selling a product. Nonetheless they weren't concerned with we potentially owning and controlling 10,000 points.



Originally posted by nydizfan

I agree with rich. Its not right to make two reservations and then wait to see which one you need.. It means , I am blocked out of that time slot. thats (expletive deleted) . we all should play by the rules. I quess some people feel INTITLED. Just the same way they should not follow the speed limit.. This (expletive deleted) just makes me crazy , but I guess thats the way it is today.. NOT IN MY WORLD.!!!!! All I have to say is .. Play by the Rules. and everyone( well almost everyone) will be somewhat happy??.......dave

Where do I start? I'm sure I won't be as eloquent as you are as my command of the English language is not as developed as yours.
First: When you own all the points it will be your world! Until then it's our world because I'm in it and I'm not leaving.
Second: Up until this post I saw a robust exchange of ideas that occasionally approached the line but never crossed it. You're over the line. Your language is...well...garbage.
Third: If I were a moderator I'd delete your post as patently offensive. To me and I believe to others who are not exposed to language more appropriate to men’s locker rooms.
Fourth: You are nonetheless correct when you say "I quess some people feel INTITLED" [sic]. I am entitled to make the reservations I need. Like it or not I'm absolutely within the rules. If you don't like it reserve the villa or villas before I do.

If some of the anger directed at me is due to a belief that I rent points for a living or as commercial enterprise you are flat out wrong. Here are some stats.
Number of points since 1995 that were deposited in to our DVC account for use. 4635
Number of dollars earned for points I rented. $0 (I do have one reservation pending)
Number of points rented. 0
We so thoroughly enjoy DVC that we'll soon be calling it home for several months every year and we are truly proud to call you neighbors. Well not all of you...just most of you.

 

[Richyams]

And I think that reserving two rooms for a rentel that is only going to require one, is a thoughtless, self-absorbed, selfish, rotten thing to do to fellow members.
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Never have I made multiple reservations with the intent of hurting anyone. Multiple reservations are made for the sole purpose of facilitating travel. If taking full advantage of the benefits of membership to treat friends and family or even rent some points makes me a bore. Then so be it. If any of the posters leveling a personal attack on me believes I'll plan the use of my points around what their future needs might be I won't and I don't expect you to plan around my needs.

Maybe my mispelling of 'rental' confused you, sorry.

All this angst is directed at renters. While making multiple reservations that you don't intend to use absolutely does hurt other member regardless of the intended vacationer, I don't recall anyone railing against this being done when the original intention is personal use. I think that this point has been made several times on this thread.

If someone made attacks based solely upon multiple reservations, I must have missed that, sorry.

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DVC was not intended for large rental use, it is intended as family vacation ownership.
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Are you sure?

The phrase "I understand that DVC membership is not an investment and is not intended for commercial use", or something to that effect appears many times in different places on the contracts, disclosures, and papers that we all signed. I also recall "DVC is intended as family vacation ownership" being stated pretty clearly in more than one place.

I am sure.


As far as the large number of points allowed, its really not that many. I wouldn't mind having enough points for an OKW GV winter stay every year. I only stay in the OKW GV. From Jan 1 to March 15 2004 in a GV would be 4563 points. We would need the two person ownership then and still not have enough, 2,000 + 2,000 just won't do it.

I don't see the maximum number of points allowed to be owned as any indication of Disney wanting rentals.

You ended with:

We so thoroughly enjoy DVC that we'll soon be calling it home for several months every year and we are truly proud to call you neighbors.

So you obviously see that the large limits can be needed for personal use.

You seem to be defending renters, you seem to be saying that although Disney says "no commercial use" they don't mean it.....is that what you are saying? Your conflicting statements are confusing me.

 

[CaptainMidnight]

The phrase "I understand that DVC membership is not an investment and is not intended for commercial use", or something to that effect appears many times in different places on the contracts, disclosures, and papers that we all signed. I also recall "DVC is intended as family vacation ownership" being stated pretty clearly in more than one place.

Yep.

 

[anniet]

HOLY THREAD, BATMAN!

Product Understand Checklist
#5. You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income or appreciating investment.

quote:
"But this idea that we do not have to show the slightest concern or consideration for fellow members with an "it's all about me" attitude is clearly wrong in my opinion, and is not consistent with my religious beliefs, my beliefs in this country, and my beliefs in my fellow man. Every day, I work to help others, it is a part of my career, and part of my belief system. Hypothetically, others may differ, they may not care who they screw over to get what they want even if it is through indiscriminant, inconsiderate action..."

...but I do....which is the reason why DBF has nicknamed me Polyannie!

Let's face it, if everyone practiced courteous behavior they wouldn't have to charge a $50 fine for parking in a handicapped spot.

I would like to believe that the majority of DVC members are considerate of their fellow members, and that the points being argued are moot. Sure there will be some who work the system. Let's give DVC as a whole the benefit of the doubt and hope that it is a very small percentage of members.

I also would like to go on record as saying I think what Doc does is very generous and not at all offensive. And my aunt is a very good hygenist and if you would like to hire her, please call.......

 

[ncligs]

Who needs the Debate board when you have this thread.

 

[CaptainMidnight]

Product Understand Checklist
#5. You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income or appreciating investment.

 

[DSNY FN]

DBBN I agree with your points about holding multiple reservations I have no problem doing this for family friends renters what have you. I was a renter before we purchased and we had no idea how many people we were having along with us so we had the gentleman hold us 3 rooms till we knew for sure. He had no problems doing this and now my wife and I and her parewnts who accompanied us on the trip are both owners and I will to this day give any person interested in using MY points the freedom to choose the accomodation they would like to stay in wether it be my family or otherwise and by doing so I will book multiple rooms if the need arises then cancel the ones they don't need.

 

[TIdoublegaER]

I envy those of you who have friends and family who don't mind responding to an invitation on short notice.

We approach family months before the 11th month mark, so we can make appropriate reservations. As a matter of fact, for the GV we have reserved this July, we approached our family last February. My SIL has gotten pregnant and given birth since that time - not exactly short notice!

 

[TiggerFreak]

When entering into a purchase agreement with DVC, all buyers are required to sign an affidavit that they have read and agree with ALL the rules and regulations proscribed in the member documents. If when reading these rules, a prospective buyer fails to understand all of the possible permutations of the application of the rules, they then will suffer the consequences of their ignorance.

It can be assumed that most of the DVC membership joined because it made the accommodations offered to members economically attractive as opposed to like accommodations on a cash basis. So even though we enjoy the MAGIC of being a part of the Disney family, DVC is still a business arrangement.

While it is evident that DVC originally did not and still asserts it does not want anyone using their membership as a commercial enterprise. Until the rules are changed, renting is just another activity NOT expressly prohibited.

Being considerate to the point that you give away to others so much that you lose is . . . . . .

Maybe we should give up all of the flexibility designed into DVC and just have fixed weeks at our home resort.

 

[CaptainMidnight]

Originally posted by TiggerFreak
... While it is evident that DVC originally did not and still asserts it does not want anyone using their membership as a commercial enterprise. Until the rules are changed, renting is just another activity NOT expressly prohibited. ...

Huh?

Maybe occasional renting, but the Product Understand Checklist says:
#5. You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income or appreciating investment.

 

[TiggerFreak]

Many have quoted the "Product understanding checklist" item number 5. But so far none of the quotes are complete.

So for the record:

From the top of the "Checklist":

".. have created this Product Understanding Checklist to summerize key information. For complete details and definitions, please review the Public Offering Statement."

Item 5:

5. You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income or appreciating investment. Vacation points have no other value other than a being a vehicle to use your Ownership Interest to reserve accomedations."



It has been my understanding that this entry along with the associated portions of the Public offering statement, Paragraph 7, section d, is required by law, so that purchasers are never given that ipmression that DVC is an investment vehicle.

Quote "Generally there is no established market for resale or rental of Ownership Interest, and the many restrictions upon the use of an ownership Interest may adverselyt affect its marketability or rentability" end quote.

The operative word in this is "may."

Further down in the paragraph, quote:
"DVD's approval of a rental by an Owner is not required after a reservation has been made in the renter's own name."
end quote.

The operative phrase is "not required."

 

[CaptainMidnight]

Originally posted by TiggerFreak
Many have quoted the "Product understanding checklist" item number 5. But so far none of the quotes are complete.

So for the record:

From the top of the "Checklist":

".. have created this Product Understanding Checklist to summerize key information. For complete details and definitions, please review the Public Offering Statement."

Item 5:

5. You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income or appreciating investment. Vacation points have no other value other than a being a vehicle to use your Ownership Interest to reserve accomedations."

It has been my understanding that this entry along with the associated portions of the Public offering statement, Paragraph 7, section d, is required by law, so that purchasers are never given that ipmression that DVC is an investment vehicle.

Ok, so when it says "your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income" it doesn't really mean the "your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for personal use as a vacation experience not for the purpose of acquiring an income" part, only the "appreciating investmen" part. Ah, and we have your understanding to provide us this insight. Is that understanding written down anywhere just as a check for us in case you may not be around when we are discussing this?

Quote "Generally there is no established market for resale or rental of Ownership Interest, and the many restrictions upon the use of an ownership Interest may adverselyt affect its marketability or rentability" end quote.

The operative word in this is "may."

So "may" also means it's OK not to pay any attention to the part in teh first statement that says "your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income" as well. Hmmm......

Further down in the paragraph, quote:
"DVD's approval of a rental by an Owner is not required after a reservation has been made in the renter's own name."
end quote.

The operative phrase is "not required."

So that also means that since it says "not required" one can ignore the wording "your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income" as well because we have your understanding that the purpose of this statement is that they do not want to give the ipmression that DVC is an "..investment vehicle.. " and it's OK to skip the part about "Ownership Interest is for personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income."

Perhaps "Ownership Interest is for personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income" means that it's OK to set up multiple rental reservations that may not be used and advertise them on e-bay for key times as long as instead of making a profit or income from these activities, from you donate the proceeds from the e-bay sale to charity.

I don't quite get it yet, and I'm not in the DVC point rental business, but I'm sure others can continue to help explain it to me.....

 

[SwampFox]

"Ownership Interest is for personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income" I don't quite get it yet, but I'm sure others can continue to help explain it to me.....

From Exhibit "F" to the Master Deed:

" 1. Personal Use. Each of the Vacation Homes shall be occupied only as vacation accommodations. Use of the accommodations, commonly used facilities, and recreational facilities of the Condominium is limited soley to the personal use of the Owners or Cotenants, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a unit. "

Similar language is included in the Buena Vista Trading Company Disclosure Document for Disney Vacation Club
under 7.3 Personal Use Only

In an interesting note, under 7.5 Amendment:

" BVTC in its sole discretion may change the terns and conditions of this Disclosure Document and the rules and regulations set forth herein. These changes may affect a Club Member's right to use, exchange and rent the Club Member's Ownership Interest and impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of his or her Ownership Interest and the appurtenant Club Membership. Such changes may be made by BVTC without the consent of any Club Member and may adversely affect a Club Member's rights and benefits and increase the Club Member's costs of ownership. Further, although BVTC is required to make such changes in accordance with Applicable Law, such changes under some circumstances may not be to the advantage of some Club Members and could impact their ability to secure reservations when and where they want them. Club Members will be notified of any such changes through Member Services publications. Current publications supercede prior publications with respect to the terms and conditions of this Disclosure Document. "

Hopefully this will help you to "get it".

 

[CaptainMidnight]

Originally posted by SwampFox
From Exhibit "F" to the Master Deed:

" 1. Personal Use. Each of the Vacation Homes shall be occupied only as vacation accommodations. Use of the accommodations, commonly used facilities, and recreational facilities of the Condominium is limited soley to the personal use of the Owners or Cotenants, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a unit. "

Similar language is included in the Buena Vista Trading Company Disclosure Document for Disney Vacation Club
under 7.3 Personal Use Only

In an interesting note, under 7.5 Amendment:

" BVTC in its sole discretion may change the terns and conditions of this Disclosure Document and the rules and regulations set forth herein. These changes may affect a Club Member's right to use, exchange and rent the Club Member's Ownership Interest and impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of his or her Ownership Interest and the appurtenant Club Membership. Such changes may be made by BVTC without the consent of any Club Member and may adversely affect a Club Member's rights and benefits and increase the Club Member's costs of ownership. Further, although BVTC is required to make such changes in accordance with Applicable Law, such changes under some circumstances may not be to the advantage of some Club Members and could impact their ability to secure reservations when and where they want them. Club Members will be notified of any such changes through Member Services publications. Current publications supercede prior publications with respect to the terms and conditions of this Disclosure Document. "

Hopefully this will help you to "get it".

So where's the part in there that clears up that one doesn't have to pay any attention to the statement that "You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income or appreciating investment."? Is it the "recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a unit" part that means it's OK to set up a business to regularly rent out points on e-bay and use the purchase of an Ownership Interest for other than your personal use or other than as a vacation experience and FOR the purpose of acquiring an income?

 

[SwampFox]

Originally posted by CaptainMidnight
So where's the part in there that clears up that one doesn't have to pay any attention to the statement that "You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income or appreciating investment."? Is it the "recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a unit" part that means it's OK to set up a business to regularly rent out points on e-bay and use the purchase of an Ownership Interest for other than your personal use or other than as a vacation experience and FOR the purpose of acquiring an income?

The references above were to help you "get" only what Personal Use meant. No attempt was made to address any other comment and no comment was made to any other part of what you "don't get".

The DVC contract goes to great lengths to define all aspects of the program and explain what rights you have as an owner. It also defines who has the authority to decide when a provision has been violated. Your name doesn't appear.

Maybe you can find a legal advisor to help you "get" the documents you signed.

 

[CaptainMidnight]

Your name doesn't appear.

Really?

... Maybe you can find a legal advisor to help you "get" the documents you signed. [/B]

I doubt they would have any more success than you have had in rationalizing why it was OK to ignore the contractual statement "You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income or appreciating investment." Attempting to rationalize away this contract language isn't an easy sell or easy to pull off, your efforts toward that end are noted.

Again, it doesn't really even apply to me, I have never rented out my points, and I'm not in the for-profit point renting business. Out of curiosity, do you regularly rent out your points? If so, it would establish some experience along these lines. Of course you don't have to answer if you don't want to, just curious.