rental concerns

[Sandisw]

Interesting topic and conversation - so on the DIS points rental boards themselves - where does this fall? https://www.disboards.com/threads/p...500-wl-br-19-75pp-160-aulani-19-75pp.3931635/

They certainly own a lot of points and are offering many resorts to book reservations.

If they rent them all and it makes more than 20 reservations at one time, for each membership owned, and do it every year, then yes, it would be in violation of the current rules.

However..yes, there is a however….it’s possible they offer all they own to maximize chances but may not actually rent all every year.

The comment about wanting to do larger rentals appears to me that they want to keep the number of reservations lower…and maybe this is because it keeps them within what is allowed.

I know if I wanted to rent some points, I’d offer all my resorts and totals to start. But doesn’t mean I’d actually rent all of them in the end.

 

[john7994]

They certainly own a lot of points and are offering many resorts to book reservations.

If they rent them all and it makes more than 20 reservations at one time. and do it every year, then yes, it would be in violation of the current rules.

However..yes, there is a however….it’s possible they offer all they own to maximize chances but may not actually rent all every year.

The comment about wanting to do larger rentals appears to me that they want to keep the number of reservations lower…and maybe this is because it keeps them within what is allowed.

I know if I wanted to rent some points, I’d offer all my resorts to start. But it doesn’t mean I’d actually rent more than the total I wanted.

It’s a fair and balanced answer on your part including a POV I hadn’t considered.

I don’t want to draw attention to one user or single them out - but it is an example including their post narrative which really made me say hmmm to the topics addressed in this thread.

As you rightly reinforce - I can’t possible know all the circumstances at play for each individual - so will just leave it there.

Thanks for your reasoned response as always!

 

[🍀TwinsMom]

Just throwing it out there, the explosion of YouTube and the rental sites and information about DVC on FB, etc., is really amazing. I discovered DVC by accident. Back in 2019 I was planning our first trip and tried to find a FB group about "Disney Vacation" and the "Club" part populated in the search engine within FB. I stumbled into it thinking I was researching money-saving tips, and instead I went into a deep dive all-things DVC, which led to buying points that year/trip and then adding more on and becoming a member of the DISboards and watching DVCfan and . . . renting points from a friend who owns OKW because we were out of points, and considering renting our Riviera points so we could try a CC Thanksgiving family trip and investigating that . . .

I think a lot of points used to go to waste 5-10 years ago. During Covid, with stimulus money and anxiety burning holes in our collective psyches and wallets, LOTS of people discovered DVC, resale, renting points, YouTube room tours, YouTubers who vlogged every new cupcake at every festival, and there's a real big new pool of people who are VERY informed about DVC and maximizing their points and cash.

 

[Tramp68]

I appreciate having the option to rent dvc. As an owner who cannot afford as many points as the trips I’d like to take, I benefit from the kind folks who rent me their extra points, especially when they even pay the dues!!?

However, I’m convinced there must be a group of room walkers who grab up all those highly coveted AKL value studios to hoard for rent as a “confirmed reservation”

There just aren't very many AKV Value rooms to begin with.

Also, FWIW, everyone has the same ability to walk. I always start my reservations 1 to 2 weeks early to give me plenty of chances to get that coveted first day and then walk...

 

[crisi]

I think a lot of points used to go to waste 5-10 years ago. During Covid, with stimulus money and anxiety burning holes in our collective psyches and wallets, LOTS of people discovered DVC, resale, renting points, YouTube room tours, YouTubers who vlogged every new cupcake at every festival, and there's a real big new pool of people who are VERY informed about DVC and maximizing their points and cash.

I've been a member 20 years, and I don't think a lot of points have ever gone to waste - in part because we'd have noticed it in the breakage income part of the dues report - and I don't think there has been a significant change there. It isn't like most members find it hard to give points away or rent them for bargain prices to friends/family and coworkers. Twenty years ago there was a lot more "I can't use my points, so one of my coworkers is going to use them" posts. Now people seem more likely to rent to strangers rather than rent/give them to their neighbor or their best friend's kid as a wedding gift.

That was sort of how we bought - we bought and surveyed a few friends with "if we ever can't use our points, would you....?" Early on, I kept a list in my telephone book (remember those?) of people who'd expressed interest.

When we first bought, renting out your points was rather difficult - brokers made it a lot easier - as has the ability to make reservations on line rather than spending 20 minutes on hold to discover if what your renter wants is available. There have been several times during my tenure here were buying to rent has been a "thing" - its been a thing for the past five years or more, but there was a time when it wasn't - when Disney clamped down on the 20 rentals and transfers, and when the economy crashed and some people had lots of points (and not all points got rented in 2009) - it had been a "thing" around 2005 or so.

 

[Brian Noble]

in part because we'd have noticed it in the breakage income part of the dues report - and I don't think there has been a significant change there.

IIRC, the breakage revenue to each association is always at the upper limit. Disney may be generating exactly that much, or (a lot) more, but there is no way to tell.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I've been a member 20 years, and I don't think a lot of points have ever gone to waste - in part because we'd have noticed it in the breakage income part of the dues report - and I don't think there has been a significant change there. It isn't like most members find it hard to give points away or rent them for bargain prices to friends/family and coworkers. Twenty years ago there was a lot more "I can't use my points, so one of my coworkers is going to use them" posts. Now people seem more likely to rent to strangers rather than rent/give them to their neighbor or their best friend's kid as a wedding gift.

That was sort of how we bought - we bought and surveyed a few friends with "if we ever can't use our points, would you....?" Early on, I kept a list in my telephone book (remember those?) of people who'd expressed interest.

When we first bought, renting out your points was rather difficult - brokers made it a lot easier - as has the ability to make reservations on line rather than spending 20 minutes on hold to discover if what your renter wants is available. There have been several times during my tenure here were buying to rent has been a "thing" - its been a thing for the past five years or more, but there was a time when it wasn't - when Disney clamped down on the 20 rentals and transfers, and when the economy crashed and some people had lots of points (and not all points got rented in 2009) - it had been a "thing" around 2005 or so.

The breakage amount for DVC resorts either always maxes out or has almost maxed out at the upper limit the owners receive from it. What is beyond is unknown but I believe it's more fair to say that there is unused points.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

If they rent them all and it makes more than 20 reservations at one time, for each membership owned, and do it every year, then yes, it would be in violation of the current rules.

As I recall the notice sent some 10 years ago stated that more than 20 reservations might trigger a review. It was not a hard and fast number that members are prohibited going beyond. Habitual renting of most or all points was what they seemed pointed at addressing.
Pretty certain I kept that notice. Where is just the question.

 

[RoseGold]

Even your own experience simply supports only that there are at least one or two LLCs that exist who have rented reservations.

I rented 6 times, and 2/6 were professional from points owned by LLCs with professional management. So, maybe that's a lot?

Sure, it's possible LLCs buying is smart estate planning (trusts also buy BTW). But some of those LLCs are professionals.

 

[Sandisw]

I rented 6 times, and 2/6 were professional from points owned by LLCs with professional management. So, maybe that's a lot?

Sure, it's possible LLCs buying is smart estate planning (trusts also buy BTW). But some of those LLCs are professionals.

Again, your saying you rented from an LLC with a management isn’t proof that LLC is renting above the limit. Beyond your two, do you know they are renting a ton? Or, are you making the assumption they are?

How do you know what else that LLC owns or what the primary purpose of that business is? Couldn’t the owner of the contract simply have made it part of their wider business and that renting DVC was occasional? You simply have no idea how many DVC rentals thst company has done.

And that was my point…many assumptions being made that there are a rampant number of businesses or brokers who accounts should be flagged by DVC and that they have not been…no one knows what DVC has done.

No doubt lots of owners now rent and I have always said I am sure professionals could be doing it as well but it’s just as possible those owners have structured things that keep them under the radar in terms of DVDs rules.

Regardless, DVD decides how to define it and just like they came up with the 20, they could have easily decided that number was too low and their review of accounts is within acceptable limits.

But, the rental market does not take rooms from owners, topic of the thread.

 

[Genie+]

Does DVC/DVD have reasons to address commercial renting? Will they?

I’m going with if they want to, they can. But do they want to? Have no idea.

Then I’m not surprised and caught off guard if changes are made tomorrow or years from now.

The possibility exists. As pointed out there is little we can prove, including the likelihood of that possibility.

 

[Sandisw]

Does DVC/DVD have reasons to address commercial renting? Will they?

I’m going with if they want to, they can. But do they want to? Have no idea.

Then I’m not surprised and caught off guard if changes are made tomorrow or years from now.

The possibility exists. As pointed out there is little we can prove, including the likelihood of that possibility.

I think it’s a fine line for them to walk. I also believe that they very well be willing to accept a small margin of error in how many memberships could be doing it.

For example, if 1% of all memberships appear to be renting for commercial purposes, it might not make sense to devote time and money to enforce….but, if it becomes 20% of memberships, then it might trigger a different response.

Since it’s crickets from them, I just have to believe it’s not something that they think is being done to the degree it’s hurting the membership. But, as you said, the only one who really knows is DVC.

 

[RoseGold]

Again, your saying you rented from an LLC with a management isn’t proof that LLC is renting above the limit. Beyond your two, do you know they are renting a ton? Or, are you making the assumption they are?

What? I never said anyone was renting over the limit. No one needs to, because the limit is a joke. Just look at the names of the LLCs, just go get another one.

My point is that professional renting isn't anything new, and contracts are being run in the hands of professionals and have been for a long time. By definition and by design of the system, those rooms are going to renters.

And sure, I guess it's theoretically possible some private owner bought their contract in the name of an LLC, and then hired an independent Florida professional real estate brokerage that specializes in various timeshare systems to rent it out? That's still a professional in my book.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

We have this conversation 2 or 3 times a year….

First come, First Serve,
Everyone has the same ability to use there points…. at 11 months

This is no different than the claim restriction at the new resort with prevent direct owners from using those resort at 7 months …

 

[Sandisw]

What? I never said anyone was renting over the limit. No one needs to, because the limit is a joke. Just look at the names of the LLCs, just go get another one.

My point is that professional renting isn't anything new, and contracts are being run in the hands of professionals and have been for a long time. By definition and by design of the system, those rooms are going to renters.

And sure, I guess it's theoretically possible some private owner bought their contract in the name of an LLC, and then hired an independent Florida professional real estate brokerage that specializes in various timeshare systems to rent it out? That's still a professional in my book.

Your initial response to me was from my question asking where people are finding the information that support there are tons of professional renters out there and you said to just go to the comptroller site.

So, I thought we were discussing the same thing.

 

[GoingSince1990]

The OP talks about the difficulty of reserving at 5-6 months. But I just checked what’s available for a weeklong stay 5 months from now (specifically the week of March 2-9) and there is an absolute ton of availability, all room sizes, and many different resorts. So I’m not sure if the complaint is not being able to reserve for the absolute peak times 5 months out, or get the most desired resorts like BCV and VGF 5 months out? Is it possible that the OP’s expectations are set a little too high?

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I was thinking the same thing.
Recently, my wife was booking a February trip. Lots to choice from…

The OP talks about the difficulty of reserving at 5-6 months. But I just checked what’s available for a weeklong stay 5 months from now (specifically the week of March 2-9) and there is an absolute ton of availability, all room sizes, and many different resorts. So I’m not sure if the complaint is not being able to reserve for the absolute peak times 5 months out, or get the most desired resorts like BCV and VGF 5 months out? Is it possible that the OP’s expectations are set a little too high?

 

[Sandisw]

The OP talks about the difficulty of reserving at 5-6 months. But I just checked what’s available for a weeklong stay 5 months from now (specifically the week of March 2-9) and there is an absolute ton of availability, all room sizes, and many different resorts. So I’m not sure if the complaint is not being able to reserve for the absolute peak times 5 months out, or get the most desired resorts like BCV and VGF 5 months out? Is it possible that the OP’s expectations are set a little too high?

I think that the frustration was to not have gotten something and then seeing other owners renting out the same hard to get rooms as confirmed reservations, thus shutting out another DVC owner who wants the room for themselves.

There certainly are owners who grab and rent those types of rooms, but some have mentioned they think maybe DVC should curb the number of owners who now rent, and that if they do, it will somehow change the ability for an owner to get the rooms they want,

 

[RapunzelRN]

There just aren't very many AKV Value rooms to begin with.

Also, FWIW, everyone has the same ability to walk. I always start my reservations 1 to 2 weeks early to give me plenty of chances to get that coveted first day and then walk...

The few that are available are being rented often. That seems to be a very popular rental when browsing. Heck I’ve even rented that category myself for a great deal! I don’t have any issue with owners walking or walking AKL value rooms then renting them at their discretion, but I see that this room cat is very often listed for rent and I’m sure it’s bc of the mark up for profit compared to their points needed to book.

 

[zavandor]

The OP talks about the difficulty of reserving at 5-6 months. But I just checked what’s available for a weeklong stay 5 months from now (specifically the week of March 2-9) and there is an absolute ton of availability, all room sizes, and many different resorts. So I’m not sure if the complaint is not being able to reserve for the absolute peak times 5 months out, or get the most desired resorts like BCV and VGF 5 months out? Is it possible that the OP’s expectations are set a little too high?

It happens often. People complaining "there is literally nothing available" and then someone checks and there are a lot of openings.