Reneging Renters - How to deal with them?

[Sammie]

hate to burst your bubble but everyone engaging in buying and selling points is engaged in commercialism

No bubble bursted, just wondered the difference.

 

[Minnie328]

My suggestion - don't rent, only do transfers with other owners. They understand the program, no going back and forth with changes, all paid up front before transfer, safer (trustwise), and no worries about damges to room... once it is done, it is done!

If you are going to rent, you should get paid extra dollar$ (over transferring)for the hassle!

 

[Doctor P]

I hate to burst your bubble but everyone engaging in buying and selling points is engaged in commercialism.

Hate to burst YOUR bubble, but not everyone that rents points does so in a way that meets any reasonable definition of a commercial venture (and such definitions do exist--e.g., tax code, business license codes, etc.)

 

[crisi]

Your writing is a model of clarity and understanding, NOT..

I think that you are saying, with great difficulty, is that owners frequently screw each other. I agree with that. Frequently I will be working with someone who then sees another post of someone with cheaper points and goes to them.

I don't like that but that is the reality of the situation and I am willing to live with a free market enterprise system.

What is offensive to me is the renter that I have spent a lot of time with, who finally, after 2-5 calls to Disney, gets a confirmed reservation.

We have agreed on a price, and they have agreed to pay it. They promise to send the money. I wait, send a reminder email, I wait again, etc.

Finally, they send an email saying that they have changed their mind. To put salt in the wounds, I see that they have other posts after they got my confirmation in their hand, requesting a purchase of points for the exact same reservation.

How, under those circumstances am I an "elitest"? Basically, I am being punished for being a good guy and trusting people.

dalt01, I don't think that you have your head screwed on right!!

From what I can see, owners are being screwed left and right by buyers.

I agree, but it isn't the other owners undercutting you that is a problem, its the renters who keep looking for cheaper points after you've started working with them.

My husband works in corporate retail and we have a lot of conversations about this. People come in and use the resources of the store. The salespeople, the demo models. Then they leave and find the best price possible on the internet - or go to WalMart. Then they complain that they don't get any customer service! Consumers are creating a market, and then complaining about the results they get.

 

[gblast123]

Hate to burst YOUR bubble, but not everyone that rents points does so in a way that meets any reasonable definition of a commercial venture (and such definitions do exist--e.g., tax code, business license codes, etc.)

Doctor P,

You are dead wrong. Anyone who knows anything about law (as an attorney, I know a little) would know that when you sign a contract you are bound by the definitions in the contract, if they are defined.

If you bothered to look at your Disney DVC contract, you would know that the definition (for "financial gain") fits the actions of people buying and selling points.

In the future, know what you are talking about before criticising other, more knowledgable people.

David

 

[RobDoc]

...
If you bothered to look at your Disney DVC contract, you would know that the definition (for "financial gain") fits the actions of people buying and selling points.

In the future, know what you are talking about before criticising other, more knowledgable people.

I have bothered to read my documents and can't find reference to "financial gain". Can you point out where that phrase might be found in the contract please?

My contract does provide a definition of "Personal Use" and "commercial purpose" and also clearly states that members are allowed to lease or rent reservations made using their points - with no mention of "financial gain". In addition, "commercial purpose", at least in my documents, does not appear to exclude leasing or renting a reservation. The two definitions are included in Exhibit "F" to Declaration of Condominium under Section 1. The "Personal Use" definition states: "Use of the accommodations and recreational facilities of the Condominium is limited solely to the personal use of the Owners or Cotenants, their guests, invitees and lessees (emphasis added) and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit."

There are whole sections in the contract related to "Leasing of Vacation Homes" and outlining the nature of any rental agreement. However, I've not been able to find any reference to "financial gain" and would appreciate knowing where that may be found in the documents.

Thanks!

 

[JimMIA]

I knew I heard footsteps!

 

[Doctor P]

In the future, know what you are talking about before criticising other, more knowledgable people.

My polite suggestion is that you would be best to take your own advice on this one. I will leave it at that.

 

[dalt01]

 

[TCPluto]

Doctor P,

You are dead wrong. Anyone who knows anything about law (as an attorney, I know a little) would know that when you sign a contract you are bound by the definitions in the contract, if they are defined.

If you bothered to look at your Disney DVC contract, you would know that the definition (for "financial gain") fits the actions of people buying and selling points.

In the future, know what you are talking about before criticising other, more knowledgable people.

David

If you truly are a lawyer, I'm surprised at your post. First, you can't interject your "financial gain" phrase into a document when it isn't there. Second, any good lawyer would easily be able to argue the meaning of "financial gain".

What is financial gain? Unless you rent your points for the purchase price plus maintainance fees, I think it would be most difficult to argue a financial gain for the rentee. As this is not the case (renting for full purchase price), it's a very ambigious set of circumstances and figures.

But your a lawyer, you knew that...

 

[ZachnElli]

As an owner who had to rent points this year, I do know what the OP is talking about. My dh was laid off in Nov and is still unemployed. Our big vacation with a Grand Villa booked had to be canceled. I banked and borrowed to get that Grand Villa, leaving me with lots of points I needed to rent. I'd love to never rent my points, but this year going ourselves would just be irresponsible. So either I rent or let the points expire. I've had several renters renege. 127 points, 160 points and 184 points. All my biggest renters. One said there was a family illness, one wanted to take advantage of the free dining this fall, and one flat out lied and said she had car problems (I looked up other posts and she booked with 2 members). I am currently waiting for payment for another rental and should have had it weeks ago. Why am I still waiting? Probably because I'm stupid. A renter and fellow DVC member rented from me and this is a friend of theirs. I sent the DVC member a warning yesterday and still have heard nothing. Even our fellow DVC members blow us off sometimes. I'd love to transfer to another member, but these are banked points and cannot be transferred. So for all those who say "don't ever rent" I hope you never fall on hard times. I'm just doing what I can to hold onto our DVC contract.

 

[dalt01]

you guys REALLY need to get 25% up front before you take anyone seriously, im in the auto business and salespeople will get a nod from a customer and come and say, i sold a car, and the answer is, its not sold till you are waving to them as they leave to take it home. till your prospective renter ponys up some cash he is in most cases no more than a casual browser.

 

[Johnnie Fedora]

So for all those who say "don't ever rent" I hope you never fall on hard times. I'm just doing what I can to hold onto our DVC contract.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, and I hope things improve for you soon.

Your post is an excellent example of why we as members should take an active interest in the "going rental rate" even if we never plan to rent. Do you think any prospective renters will respond to a R&T board post if you were to post. "Need to rent due to difficult times, can only afford to rent out my points for $18/point". How many offers do you think you'll get?

I bet "DVC charity" only flows in one direction on the R&T board!!

 

[Tinky]

Doctor P,

In the future, know what you are talking about before criticising other, more knowledgable people.

David

Oh piddle gblast...

Mods/Doc,
Can we please get a "raspberry" smilely?

 

[gblast123]

I have bothered to read my documents and can't find reference to "financial gain". Can you point out where that phrase might be found in the contract please?

My contract does provide a definition of "Personal Use" and "commercial purpose" and also clearly states that members are allowed to lease or rent reservations made using their points - with no mention of "financial gain". In addition, "commercial purpose", at least in my documents, does not appear to exclude leasing or renting a reservation. The two definitions are included in Exhibit "F" to Declaration of Condominium under Section 1. The "Personal Use" definition states: "Use of the accommodations and recreational facilities of the Condominium is limited solely to the personal use of the Owners or Cotenants, their guests, invitees and lessees (emphasis added) and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit."

There are whole sections in the contract related to "Leasing of Vacation Homes" and outlining the nature of any rental agreement. However, I've not been able to find any reference to "financial gain" and would appreciate knowing where that may be found in the documents.

Thanks!

To all would be lawyers,

Having now been chastised to be exact, I will do so.

The Disney documents do not have definitions for commercialism or financial gain. The only item that refers to this area is a series of different documents which say the following:

"Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described in the Declaration is expressly prohibited. 'Commericial Purpose' includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that in the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude is a commercial enterprize or practice."

This language is located at Exhibit G, Disney Vacation Club Membership Agreement for Saratoga Springs, Sec. 5.1; Also see Condominium Rules and Regulation Sec. 1 (Personal Use); Also see Declaration of Condominium Sec. 12.1 (Use Restriction, Personal use).

Unless your knowledge of english is on the same level as dalt01, it is pretty clear to me that renting your points to stranger on the disboard falls squarely under the above definitions.

In fact, it seems that disboards is facilitating a breach of contract by the owners with Disney by allowing a mechanism for doing so.

It like I said before, renting points, seem to violate at least the spirit, if not the plain language of the contract.

Disney, at any time can determine that the rental activity is a "commercial purpose" and stop it.

Having said that, I think that it would be difficult to selectively enforce.

Who do I send the legal bill to?

 

[gblast123]

As an owner who had to rent points this year, I do know what the OP is talking about. My dh was laid off in Nov and is still unemployed. Our big vacation with a Grand Villa booked had to be canceled. I banked and borrowed to get that Grand Villa, leaving me with lots of points I needed to rent. I'd love to never rent my points, but this year going ourselves would just be irresponsible. So either I rent or let the points expire. I've had several renters renege. 127 points, 160 points and 184 points. All my biggest renters. One said there was a family illness, one wanted to take advantage of the free dining this fall, and one flat out lied and said she had car problems (I looked up other posts and she booked with 2 members). I am currently waiting for payment for another rental and should have had it weeks ago. Why am I still waiting? Probably because I'm stupid. A renter and fellow DVC member rented from me and this is a friend of theirs. I sent the DVC member a warning yesterday and still have heard nothing. Even our fellow DVC members blow us off sometimes. I'd love to transfer to another member, but these are banked points and cannot be transferred. So for all those who say "don't ever rent" I hope you never fall on hard times. I'm just doing what I can to hold onto our DVC contract.

I can fully understand your difficulties. Your problem is not that you are stupid but that you are a kind and trusting person.

It is even more painful when you trust someone and then they screw around with you for the sake of a few dollars. I am sure that the people reneging saves less than $50 and for that they would back out and put you to all that trouble.

This is why we should set up a feedback or reneging setup such as Ebay. It would let everyone know who did this.

By the way, I wouldn't mind it if you would email me the info you have on those people who reneged. I'll make sure that I don't rent to them ever!!!.

It is the least that I can do. In fact, every owner should do the same.

BTW, if you need any help with renting the points, pm me or call me. I have been fairly successful and I have a system down pat. I have been speaking to Daddio about using his website and he was amenable to me using it for a small fee, which I am negotiating with him about.

If there is anything else I can do to help, I will do, if it is in by power to do so.

David

 

[LIFERBABE]

David,

I understand your efforts, but one of the reasons the membership is so fragmented on this issue is because of people like you. We all have something in common and that is our love for Disney and DVC. Renting or not, we want our homes taken care of and valued. It's harmful to all of us, when our points/homes are cheapened. No one likes to be beat over the head with a message.

For lack of a better word, your style is abrasive. There are people here with ZERO interest in renting their points and to have someone new step in and tell them what to do with their points is not gonna happen. Many rent for less than $10 out of spite because someone told them to ask for more.

I agree, that it would be in our best interest to agree not to devalue something we all value so much by succumbing to every sob story or "make our dream come true" rental, but there is a medium.

I for one, am not comfortable with naming names etc. because that is a slippery slope. I completely understand why the Dis stays out of it.

As for your comment that the DIS is providing an avenue to breach our contract, that's not gonna win you any friends either. I read the same passage, and came to a totally different conclusion. I must have went to the same school as Dalt and it wasnt Harvard. Internet law school does not make you a lawyer worthy of a fee, for a half-ask interpretation.

Our failure is not realizing our own worth. That is nobody's fault but our own. Many have tried to turn this into the have's vs the have nots, and "guilted" many into not expecting or asking for their true worth. DVC rentals is the last great bastion of doing Disney cheap. Check Mousesavers and the onsite codes that were once plentiful have pretty much all but dried up. Disney realized they didnt have to give rooms away anymore, and we need to realize the same. Even with our limitations. With DVC you give up some options and save money just like the MYW packages. Dont want hopping? save money, DVC dont want housekeeping? save money. Guests are already making choices that affect their vacation costs, choosing DVC is another choice that will save them money.

I have rented to some excellent families, and I enjoy helping others with their excitement about staying at a DVC resort. Until I receive payment, I dont even consider it a deal. I dont do alot of "shopping" posts either. You can pretty much pick those out.

Renters can be our best friends or our worst enemies. Bottom line is everyone wants to be treated with respect and fairness. I really have no desire in participating in a black list situation. There are enough people out there willing to follow thru on transactions and be good guests, we just have to be patient and stop accepting lowball offers and undercutting one another.

 

[gblast123]

Liferbabe,

While I agree with many things that you say, the undercurrent in your post is that since I am new, I should just shut up and leave things alone. I feel like the kid who said that the emperor has no clothes. Maybe you should look at a fresh perspective.

When I posted this thread, I had no idea that it would garner such a response!!! Yet, I posted it because I had a few difficult experiences and was looking for any advice and a possible solution.

You are entitled to your opinion.

But tell ZachnElli that they should not have been warned about potential "renegers". They were in a bad situation and a few foolish people made their situation substantially worse. Potentially, it could cause them to lose a lot of money if they had to sell their points at distressed prices or even worse, (but unlikely) they could lose them altogether.

I just do not see situations where owner/sellers have ever taken advantage of a buyer. At least not on these posts. However, I and many other people like ZachnElli have been put through the ringer because there is no personal responsibilty for people's actions.

At least on Ebay, there is some responsibility by having their feed back rating.

If you don't like my interpretation of the contract, seek your own legal opinion. I would be happy to discuss this with anyone who is admitted to practice law in any of the 50 states. I doubt that they would have a serioius disagreement with my interpretation.

I was simply replying to a number of posts and telling the truth. If the truth hurts yours or other people's feelings, am I better off lying? Sometimes the truth is abrasive.

Imagine how the emperor felt when the he realized that the kid was right and he was walking naked with his crown jewels flapping in the breeze.!!

Consider this -- If people knew that if they reneged, all the other owner/renters would know about it and they might have difficulty renting in tlhe future, would that fact alone be a significant deterrent!!!

The renter could always post a reply and the emails that went back and forth could be available for anyone to see.

WOW, what a concept. People taking responsibility for the consequences of their actions!!! NOVEL CONCEPT?

I think that when you are dealing in a public forum, such as disboards, you should expect that there is no privacy. That is both good and bad in some respects. However, it also should promote a brutal honesty, even though being honest can be "abrasive".

David

 

[LIFERBABE]

Im not calling you out because you are new, Im just trying to tell you, you are not the first to try to organize anything, and I don't see you being successful with your approach. Many (who shall not be named ) have come before you.

That would be my advice to you, try a fresh perspective and dont be so condescending. Not give up, but you are the first that actually has a concept to implement and then you offend your target audience trying to get your point across. It's counterproductive.

That's why we remain a community divided. Everyone does not have to agree with you to effect change. Those that want change will come. Those that don't may see the benefit in other ways or not.

And that is exactly what it is, an interpretation. I don't see where a law degree is needed but a good imagination may come in handy, because that is a stretch.

And there are so many new renters here on a daily basis, that I think the majority of them would not be affected by your system. And then there is the issue of multiple screen names, and getting family to rent etc. All things Ebay has had years to address. Renting points is published info and that sends alot of prospectors our way.

And that's another thing, why be redundant? Ebay already does all this, albeit for a fee. Many members as we speak, are garnering 15-20ppt on Ebay. You already have their money before checking availability so no reneging.

I dont think we should expect the Dis to host any further efforts for free or use its board as a cross check to another site. Post here for free and then check credentials on another site is taking advantage of this sites generosity and traffic stream.

If they wanted us to have it, they would provide it. If we dont like it, we should take our points and feedback, somewhere else. If it were my site, that is how I would feel. They are providing a tremendous service and all we want to do is focus on what's wrong and we are the cause of it. The change should be in ourselves first.

I think common sense should prevail and we should continue to have open discussions about the issue, as members. I wouldnt discourage that.

 

[Doctor P]

To all would be lawyers,

Having now been chastised to be exact, I will do so.

The Disney documents do not have definitions for commercialism or financial gain. The only item that refers to this area is a series of different documents which say the following:

"Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described in the Declaration is expressly prohibited. 'Commericial Purpose' includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that in the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude is a commercial enterprize or practice."

This language is located at Exhibit G, Disney Vacation Club Membership Agreement for Saratoga Springs, Sec. 5.1; Also see Condominium Rules and Regulation Sec. 1 (Personal Use); Also see Declaration of Condominium Sec. 12.1 (Use Restriction, Personal use).

Unless your knowledge of english is on the same level as dalt01, it is pretty clear to me that renting your points to stranger on the disboard falls squarely under the above definitions.

In fact, it seems that disboards is facilitating a breach of contract by the owners with Disney by allowing a mechanism for doing so.

It like I said before, renting points, seem to violate at least the spirit, if not the plain language of the contract.

Disney, at any time can determine that the rental activity is a "commercial purpose" and stop it.

Having said that, I think that it would be difficult to selectively enforce.

Who do I send the legal bill to?

A good lawyer also knows to read the entire contract before rendering an opinion. There are many clauses in the contract that EXPLICITLY PERMIT renting. Thus, I think you will find that renting points obviously does not violate either the spirit or the plain language of the contract. Now, as to the original problem that started this thread, I do think reneging on the part of renters should be a concern.

I do think that renting is being abused by a number of owners who, IMHO, are clearly involved in a commercial venture. However, there are also another large group who occasionally rent and do so in compliance with what is allowed by our contracts and declarations. I do not rent points at this time, but do appreciate having that option available should I ever end up in a situation where I need to do so.