Reduced Capacity at DVC

[Groucho]

Darn, I shouldn't have gone looking for that thread - now I'm sucked back in re-reading it, it's great stuff! It starts getting good on page 9!

 

[Evita_W]

I stopped in here just to check if I was crazy! I'm trying to book one single Sunday in November (21st) and are no studios anywhere and 1BR only at Saratoga. I've never personally seen NO availability at all so I was pretty shocked, especially when booking right on the seven month window.

I used about a year of points for my ticket to a cruise the previous week, which saved me over $2,400 over paying full price for all of us (2 adults, 2 kids), so well worth it! I was figuring we'd swing through WDW afterwards (not going into the parks, just Springs and maybe some hotel visits), but I'm stuck waitlisting it - it's not worth a full 1BR for a single-night stay.

Evita, this used to happen a ton in the 2000s; I remember some of us on here spending some time going through the county records online and finding some of these people who'd rent countless rooms. I specifically remember one who had several memberships that were each maxed out (I thought it was 5,000 points back then; it's 4k now) with slightly different names, one name was even something about how they were making money from it, like "(family name) Family Trust" or something like that. They'd book many rooms during popular weeks at Boardwalk, Beach, etc and put them on eBay. It was not long after that that Disney started getting serious about cracking down on these offenders. It's certainly a lot harder to abuse the system now than it was then, though it certainly can still be done.

There was a trend of this happening shortly after we first became members and Disney established a rule that one of the members on the contract had to be the primary guest at least once every three reservations or Disney could buy back the contract for purchase price or restrict new bookings for a while on the contract at their discretion. They made a huge deal out of it at the time, but it seems they never enforced it. It would be nice if they would do so.

 

[Evita_W]

I'm guessing that they have points that are expiring and need to sell them before they lose them.

They paid for the DVC membership and pay the annual Maintenance Fees. If it were me, I'd hate to see all that money go out the window.

I don't have a problem with them renting the points and then booking what people want. I do take issue with booking during busy weeks, tying up availability and hoping they can rent them out.

 

[Sandisw]

I don't have a problem with them renting the points and then booking what people want. I do take issue with booking during busy weeks, tying up availability and hoping they can rent them out.

That’s the double edge sword. Personally, I don’t take issue with what someone does with their points, including renting speculative rentals. But, if someone is an owner who missed out, I can understand why someone is frustrated.

The only thing we can hope is that those who violate the commercial renting are held accountable.

I am happy that we don’t allow them here freely though.

 

[mello]

I've been a member since 2006 and this is the first I've ever seen no studios available for months ahead, period.

Same here, since 2005. Yes, it's true that holidays are notoriously difficult, but this year is IMPOSSIBLE. When you can't get anything 7 months to the day, that's unusual.

 

[ngl]

Same here, since 2005. Yes, it's true that holidays are notoriously difficult, but this year is IMPOSSIBLE. When you can't get anything 7 months to the day, that's unusual.

I agree as we live 1 hr from WDW and typically go there Tgiving week for at least two nights that week for past 10 years or so. Been checking this week at 7 month window and very limited availability. Having said that, I think people are grabbing what they can now and will evaluate as the months go by if that is a realistic plan for Tgiving based on how the world is so my guess is cancellations/waitlists will be coming through as the months progress.

 

[Sandisw]

Just to add that it is the 50th starting October 1st, so given that, people with extra points, and people ready to vacation, I think that also impacted this.

 

[ngl]

Very true re the 50th and pent up demand. And I noticed today that HS park reservations for the Monday of Tgiving week are already booked! Last year we decided to go last minute (week prior) got our home resort (BLT) and HS. Of course, now everyone is more willing to travel etc but have to wonder if everyone thinks Tgiving will be more crowded than usual this year? All the signs seem to point to yes thus far!!

 

[Evita_W]

Just to add that it is the 50th starting October 1st, so given that, people with extra points, and people ready to vacation, I think that also impacted this.

Yep, one of the reasons we are doing a trip in June and then February. We were going to do Thanksgiving week, but couldn't get many days. So, instead we will do February and finish the last bit of when our APs are valid. Then we plan to take next year and go to other places, maybe use RCI and/or bank points, let the demand die down a bit to where there is more availability band get back to going to WDW in 2023.

 

[Groucho]

FWIW, my waitlist for a standard view at Boardwalk on 11/21-11/22 came through today. Nice!

 

[RoseGold]

It was not long after that that Disney started getting serious about cracking down on these offenders. It's certainly a lot harder to abuse the system now than it was then, though it certainly can still be done.

I wonder what exactly you mean by this. Renting has always been allowed in the O14 rules.

 

[Marionnette]

I wonder what exactly you mean by this. Renting has always been allowed in the O14 rules.

Commercial renting isn't allowed and there were families who had massive amounts of points under different memberships. They would book spec reservations for hard to get villas and rent them out. This was also at a time when you could morph points by transferring them from one membership to another, effectively changing their home resort. They would buy up points cheaply at auction or on the resale market and "morph" them to points at more desirable resorts. There was a huge thread about it years ago. I'll see if I can find the link and add it to this post.

ETA: Found it!
https://www.disboards.com/threads/dvc-response-about-ebay-commercial-sellers.1197656/

 

[RoseGold]

Commercial renting isn't allowed and there were families who had massive amounts of points under different memberships

You are dead wrong and spreading wrong information. Even that thread said so.

There’s a whole section in the membership agreement, section 5, about rentals, which are expressly allowed.

The rule is a “commercial enterprise,” which Disney has rarely enforced. I rented points in recent years twice from LLCs that seem to only do this. And holding DVC in an LLC (which is allowed) is commercial by definition.

 

[Marionnette]

You are dead wrong and spreading wrong information. Even that thread said so.

There’s a whole section in the membership agreement, section 5, about rentals, which are expressly allowed.

The rule is a “commercial enterprise,” which Disney has rarely enforced. I rented points in recent years twice from LLCs that seem to only do this. And holding DVC in an LLC (which is allowed) is commercial by definition.

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of "commercial renting" because shortly after that issue was brought to light, point morphing was addressed. DVC actually defined commercial renting and amended the POS to limit the number of reservations a member can make in a 12-month period, after which the member must satisfy the board that the reservations were for "personal use", i.e. family and friends.

https://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-p...commercial-renting-limitations-amended-to-pos
Renting itself is not prohibited but using renting as a business is.

 

[The Jackal]

Thanks, I was pretty sure that I remembered 5,000! I'd assume that the thread is still here on the boards here. Ah, here it is. At least one of these people had an estimated $1.3 million dollars in points, and that was at 2006 prices!
https://www.disboards.com/threads/dvc-response-about-ebay-commercial-sellers.1197656/page-26

Well what were prices back in 2006? 8,000 points at $165 per point is $1,320,000. I remember PVB being sold for $165 back in 2017, I’m sure in 2006 your looking at high $90’s to low $100’s. 5,000 points at $110 is $550,000.

 

[RoseGold]

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of "commercial renting" because shortly after that issue was brought to light, point morphing was addressed. DVC actually defined commercial renting and amended the POS to limit the number of reservations a member can make in a 12-month period, after which the member must satisfy the board that the reservations were for "personal use", i.e. family and friends.

That isn't what they defined, they defined "commercial enterprise," not whatever "commercial renting" is. Renting anything for money is commercial renting.

“A Club Member may make a reservation to use a Vacation Home for the Club Member’s own use, make their use available to family and guests, or rent them solely through the Club Member’s own efforts.” The rent them is even underlined. Section 5 of the Member Agreement.

 

[Marionnette]

That isn't what they defined, they defined "commercial enterprise," not whatever "commercial renting" is. Renting anything for money is commercial renting.

“A Club Member may make a reservation to use a Vacation Home for the Club Member’s own use, make their use available to family and guests, or rent them solely through the Club Member’s own efforts.” The rent them is even underlined. Section 5 of the Member Agreement.

We seem to be stating the same thing. You're just so much more eloquent with your words.

 

[Groucho]

I wonder what exactly you mean by this. Renting has always been allowed in the O14 rules.

There was tremendous abuse by a few bad apples who would book many hard-to-get rooms and put them on eBay, making it notably more difficult for regular members to get reservations for those times. At the time, there were few if any restrictions on booking for other people.
At some point not long after the thread I linked, Disney started cracking down on these abusers. They also added rules limited the amount of times you could make change guest names on reservations, how many times you could rent points, etc. I don't remember the details but there were definitely changes made.

Well what were prices back in 2006? 8,000 points at $165 per point is $1,320,000. I remember PVB being sold for $165 back in 2017, I’m sure in 2006 your looking at high $90’s to low $100’s. 5,000 points at $110 is $550,000.

These were people with several 5,000 point memberships with slightly different names. Check the thread I linked for details. That thread specifically deals with the Weschler (sp?) family who was one of the big (maybe biggest?) abusers; the best part was that we figured out that one of the people defending the practice in the thread was actually a rental who had multiple Disboards accounts and would pretend to be a happy customer promoting their business, then they started a website and used multiple accounts encouraging people to go there but it was just a big ad for their DVC resales...

 

[JETSDAD]

There's still commercial renting (enterprise, whatever you want to call it) going on. Points held in personal names and multiple LLC's with a DVC rental site (not broker) for renting out their own points.

 

[Evita_W]

There's still commercial renting (enterprise, whatever you want to call it) going on. Points held in personal names and multiple LLC's with a DVC rental site (not broker) for renting out their own points.

Yes, and that needs to be addressed. DVC should be primarily for your own personal use with occasional rentals when needed.