"Red Shirt" Vent

[princessmom29]

We are on the opposite end of the spectrum. I decided to homeschool because my dd showed early reading readiness at 3. By 4 1/2 she was reading. She is 7 and is reading advanced chapter books and doing long division. If she were to go to school I have no idea what they would do with her. Maturity wise she would probably be a 1st grader. Learning wise she is upper 3rd grade! Same with my other dd. She is just 2 months shy of 16 and is finishing up chemistry and 11 grade reading. Although her maturity level is way beyond her age.

The school systems are not set up for all children to succeed. Whether children start early or are redshirted there will be kids who are far behind and far ahead and no one knows what to do with them. I taught in public schools for years and by 4th grade it didn't matter who started when. It mattered more on IQ and family life. (And IQ is tested against age not grade level. So kids being redshirted may be 9 in 2nd grade and when tested against their age they would be performing lower than other aged peers.)

I have no plans to start my kids in college very early. Instead they will just get more time to study things they are interested in...DD15 will be starting Physics in January!

Well, I can say for the older children at least, that they are worknig on grade level for what they would get in the IB program at our school. They would be doing chemistry as sophomores, and after that are given the options of several college level sciences. They will complete 2 semeters of calculus and a semester of stats. before graduation. The 11th grade IB English program is equivilent to college levelk work. There are schools out there to meet these kinds of needs.

As for the little one. I was in TAG programs at that age and doing many of those same things. I didn't go to preschool, and no one purposefully taught me at home, but I was reading at 4. I started K reading on a level equivilent to the end of 1st grade, and by the end of K was reading on a 3rd grade level, and I was not yet 6. I totally get being completely bored, and that is what TAG was for. They pulled us from class 1 full day a week into a multisage classroom where we could work at our own pace on mare advanced subjects. We read Romeo and Juliet in 4th grade and went to a first class performance. I still remeber that as the moment I fell in love with theater.

 

[LisaNJ25]

Around here, kids go to school to learn, not to be declared "the best of the best of the best."

Well said

 

[Britgirlus]

My son is 7 - he has an early June birthday, so is in 2nd grade. He is one of the youngest in his class, and is the smallest boy in the grade (there is one girl smaller than him). He is also the "smartest" in his class (aces 5th grade spelling tests each week) - he is in the "gifted" program, and goes to 3rd grade for math. He does not play sports in school, but has played soccer since he was old enough (4, I think). Soccer is recreational here until the U11 age group, and all players get equal playing time, as they should at this age. For the past year, ds has been playing "up" in soccer - since fall he has played with a program for U9 and U10's - he is tiny compared to most of the players, but still holds his own.
My point - age doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things - it all depends on the individual child, and where they are at developmentally and socially. They'll all grow up and become valuable members of society (well, most of them - and no one will be able to tell how old they were in Kindergarten, and it really won't matter, will it ?

 

[LisaNJ25]

My son is 7 - he has an early June birthday, so is in 2nd grade. He is one of the youngest in his class, and is the smallest boy in the grade (there is one girl smaller than him). He is also the "smartest" in his class (aces 5th grade spelling tests each week) - he is in the "gifted" program, and goes to 3rd grade for math. He does not play sports in school, but has played soccer since he was old enough (4, I think). Soccer is recreational here until the U11 age group, and all players get equal playing time, as they should at this age. For the past year, ds has been playing "up" in soccer - since fall he has played with a program for U9 and U10's - he is tiny compared to most of the players, but still holds his own.
My point - age doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things - it all depends on the individual child, and where they are at developmentally and socially. They'll all grow up and become valuable members of society (well, most of them - and no one will be able to tell how old they were in Kindergarten, and it really won't matter, will it ?

No but when people start having 20yo high school seniors mixed in with 14yo freshman its a problem.

 

[Colleen27]

I'm sorry but if your child has developmental delays needing services than schools do have those services. Your child is not the only child with developmental delays IF he has them. My daughter's best friend has CP and is in a regular class with her peers and started on time. I'm sorry but thank you for showing others that you don't care how it affects the other children in the classroom. That is a big part of the problem for the younger kids in the classes is because parents don't care.

It shouldn't effect the other kids in the classroom at all. A 1st grade curriculum is a 1st grade curriculum regardless of who it is being taught to. And not all schools are good about identifying delays in a timely fashion. Ours tends to retain first, usually in K or 1st, and test later. It is absolutely setting a kid up for failure to send him to school based on chronological age knowing that he'll most likely be retained - overall only something like 60% of kids who are held back even graduate high school, 20% go on to college, etc. (pulling these numbers from memory, I'd have to look up the exact numbers but they are horrible).

It is one thing when you have a child coming in who already has a diagnosis and is legally entitled to accommodations, but it is something different altogether when you have a child who just isn't quite at the same level as his age-peers with no specific/identified reason.

 

[princessmom29]

It shouldn't effect the other kids in the classroom at all. A 1st grade curriculum is a 1st grade curriculum regardless of who it is being taught to. And not all schools are good about identifying delays in a timely fashion. Ours tends to retain first, usually in K or 1st, and test later. It is absolutely setting a kid up for failure to send him to school based on chronological age knowing that he'll most likely be retained - overall only something like 60% of kids who are held back even graduate high school, 20% go on to college, etc. (pulling these numbers from memory, I'd have to look up the exact numbers but they are horrible).

It is one thing when you have a child coming in who already has a diagnosis and is legally entitled to accommodations, but it is something different altogether when you have a child who just isn't quite at the same level as his age-peers with no specific/identified reason.

A good teacher will tell you that this is not always the case. A good techer adapts the curric. to the needs of thier students, and enough redshirted kids in a calsroom will shift what the majority of kids need. If more kids in the class are working at a higher level then the curric. will need to shift to accomodate what the majority of kids in the room need, and the kids who are actually on grade level become the ones the teacher is trying to catch up to the rest of the class. This is one of the major problems with widespread redshirting. It increases expectations, which increases the number of parents convinced they need to hold thier kids back, which leads to more older kids in K, increase in expectation, ect.

 

[Colleen27]

And tell me please. Is it really possible that you believe it would've been better to have him in the bottom of the barrel of the second graders, feeling frustrated and overwhelmed by work that was really beyond his capabilities? Being pulled out throughout the day to work with various specialists? Feeling like he's stupid because he can't keep up with his classmates? Looking like a preschooler? Why? For what reason? Just "cuz"? Believe me he's not taking anyone's place on any sports team. He's not skewing the academic expectations of the class. He will never "look" out of place with his grade level peers. Given how well-liked he is, he is not likely to "feel" out of place socially with his grade level peers. So what exactly is the big tragedy here? Besides 'just cuz'?

Dispite claiming you know EXACTLY what would happen, you cannot know that this would have been the case had he started on time. No one knows becuase he was not given the chance to try. I think that is the point that is being made here. You made the choice based on what you THOUGHT would happen. Many of us would have given the kid a chance to succeed with his age peers, given the choice, and not just "cuz". What is going on now and what will happen when he is a 16 year old freshman are very different. I personally would have given him the chance to not have to deal with that, but as you have said your child, your choice. We are are also free to say that we would do differently. DD has a little girl who has been in her class for both k and 1st grade. She is a child who is adopted by grandparents. Her father passed away when she was 3, and mom is in no condition to care for her. She has heart defects as a resulkt of mom's actions while pregnant, and had open heart surgery in may before starting school in august, at 4. He fifth birthday was 2 weeks after school started, and although she is very small for her age, she is thrivivng. You never know until you try!

You're right, you don't. But there's a lot more potential damage done by pushing a child ahead than by holding back, and the things Pac described absolutely do happen with kids who just aren't ready for school. Been there, done that.

I have no doubt that I was 110% wrong to "give it a try" and send DS on time; a full year of stomach aches and headaches and phantom illnesses and crying over getting out the door in the morning, teachers who decided by November that he wasn't ready to be there and didn't even look for a reason for his struggling, other kids who teased him for being a "baby" because his interests had more in common with younger kids and for being in the "dumb" reading group and needing pull-out support. And for all of that the school recommended retention anyway, so it was just a wasted year of bad experiences that had a lasting effect on his attitudes towards school in general.

 

[mommyof2princesses]

Well, I can say for the older children at least, that they are worknig on grade level for what they would get in the IB program at our school. They would be doing chemistry as sophomores, and after that are given the options of several college level sciences. They will complete 2 semeters of calculus and a semester of stats. before graduation. The 11th grade IB English program is equivilent to college levelk work. There are schools out there to meet these kinds of needs.

As for the little one. I was in TAG programs at that age and doing many of those same things. I didn't go to preschool, and no one purposefully taught me at home, but I was reading at 4. I started K reading on a level equivilent to the end of 1st grade, and by the end of K was reading on a 3rd grade level, and I was not yet 6. I totally get being completely bored, and that is what TAG was for. They pulled us from class 1 full day a week into a multisage classroom where we could work at our own pace on mare advanced subjects. We read Romeo and Juliet in 4th grade and went to a first class performance. I still remeber that as the moment I fell in love with theater.

My older one actually did 2 semesters of calculus already. She has done biology, marine biology and almost finished chemistry. She was in the gifted program in middle school and we pulled her because they weren't doing anything beyond what the other kids were doing. Some school systems are probably better, but not where we were.

My dh went through the TAG program and he didn't think anything great about it. I day a week so my child can learn on her ability level? Sounds like the other 4 days are a waste. My dh actually had to make up all the class room work he missed while in his TAG class. A gfited program should be more run like spec ed. Kids gifted in math should leave the room at math everyday to get special lessons. Kids gifted in reading should leave everyday during reading/writing...ect.

 

[Colleen27]

No but when people start having 20yo high school seniors mixed in with 14yo freshman its a problem.

Well it would be 19yo seniors, not 20 unless the kid is both redshirted and retained at some point. And I don't see why that is different in any meaningful way from having 18yo seniors mixed in with 14yo freshmen. It isn't like one year is a huge difference at that age.

 

[pacrosby]

Dispite claiming you know EXACTLY what would happen, you cannot know that this would have been the case had he started on time. No one knows becuase he was not given the chance to try. I think that is the point that is being made here. You made the choice based on what you THOUGHT would happen. Many of us would have given the kid a chance to succeed with his age peers, given the choice, and not just "cuz". What is going on now and what will happen when he is a 16 year old freshman are very different. I personally would have given him the chance to not have to deal with that, but as you have said your child, your choice. We are are also free to say that we would do differently. DD has a little girl who has been in her class for both k and 1st grade. She is a child who is adopted by grandparents. Her father passed away when she was 3, and mom is in no condition to care for her. She has heart defects as a resulkt of mom's actions while pregnant, and had open heart surgery in may before starting school in august, at 4. He fifth birthday was 2 weeks after school started, and although she is very small for her age, she is thrivivng. You never know until you try!

I'm sorry but this is just ridicuous. I NEVER said I knew EXACTLY what would happen. Comments based on misquotes rarely add to a discussion. We all make decisions based upon what we know in the now. And you all have no idea what you would do in another person's circumstances. Suffice it to say I knew that he wasn't ready. Pass all the judgement you want on me regarding this child you know nothing about. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you think that just because your friend's child with a 'heart problem' started school on time and thrived, any child with a 'heart problem' would likely do the same. Are you even aware of how many different congenital heart diseases there out there? That they run the gamut from rather simple to extremely complex? That even chldren with the exact same CHD can present completely different from one another. The teacher should do her homework before she speaks. The ignorance that is rearing it's ugly head here is rather frightening.

While I personally don't care, I surely understand why some might roll their eyes when they hear other's have waited to send their kids to school later in an effort to give them an athletic edge. Maybe even when they hear about kids who were truly ready academically but were held back in an effort to give them an academic edge. But kids who are not developmentally ready? That simply defies logic.

Actually in MA children are required to be in school NO EARLIER than the age of 5 (by Sept. 1st) AND NO LATER than 6. That's called a guideline and the law gives parents the ability to make the ultimate decision. Kindergarten screenings take place in the spring to assist in the decision making process if need be. I can only imagine that a similar guideline is in place across the country. So bottom line? Just because YOU don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Parents are well within their rights.

You worry about your own kid and let me worry about mine ok?

 

[princessmom29]

My older one actually did 2 semesters of calculus already. She has done biology, marine biology and almost finished chemistry. She was in the gifted program in middle school and we pulled her because they weren't doing anything beyond what the other kids were doing. Some school systems are probably better, but not where we were.

My dh went through the TAG program and he didn't think anything great about it. I day a week so my child can learn on her ability level? Sounds like the other 4 days are a waste. My dh actually had to make up all the class room work he missed while in his TAG class. A gfited program should be more run like spec ed. Kids gifted in math should leave the room at math everyday to get special lessons. Kids gifted in reading should leave everyday during reading/writing...ect.

Our TAG program was great. We did have to make up the work, but a TAG child should be able to do that without a problem. We worked at a mch quicker pace anyway so doing 5 days work in 4 was no problem and cut down on the in class boredom. I din't see those other 4 days as a waste. The work wasn't that challenging, but being around "normal" kids my age was just as important as TAG. I was in a small school, so there weren't enough TAG in a single grade level to form a whole class, so a full time TAG class was not an option. They did the best they could with the resources they had, and we LOVED it. When we went to middle school it was a much larger school and we were put together in a dedicated class, and did things like Push Math where we finished 3 years of math in 2 so we could get algebra in early. We were reading senior level books in 8th grade English. You ar right, some porgrams are better than others. The high school I teach has a great TAG program, but soem of the others in the district don't focus on that. We get a LOT of TAG transfers from other schools.

 

[pacrosby]

You're right, you don't. But there's a lot more potential damage done by pushing a child ahead than by holding back, and the things Pac described absolutely do happen with kids who just aren't ready for school. Been there, done that.

I have no doubt that I was 110% wrong to "give it a try" and send DS on time; a full year of stomach aches and headaches and phantom illnesses and crying over getting out the door in the morning, teachers who decided by November that he wasn't ready to be there and didn't even look for a reason for his struggling, other kids who teased him for being a "baby" because his interests had more in common with younger kids and for being in the "dumb" reading group and needing pull-out support. And for all of that the school recommended retention anyway, so it was just a wasted year of bad experiences that had a lasting effect on his attitudes towards school in general.

Sounds like alittle boy in my neighborhood who is actually 2 months younger than my son and in 2nd grade, a grade ahead. This little boy has had such a tough time. When he was in K and 1st grade his mom would have to literally 'drag' him to the bus. He'd whine and cry and whimper and hold onto her so tightly. It was hard to watch. Socially he didn't fit in with the kids his 'age'. I know he has struggled alot in the classroom based upon things she has said. He is pulled out for special services. They do alot of extra work at home just trying to keep him on pace.


I don't pass judgement on that Mom because she did what she believed was right at the time. He'll manage I'm sure but 'thrive'? Absolutely not.

We can all pick and choose our examples based upon which hypothesis we are trying to prove can't we?

 

[princessmom29]

I'm sorry but this is just ridicuous. We all make decisions based upon what we know in the now. And you all have no idea what you would do in another person's circumstances. Suffice it to say I knew that he wasn't ready. Pass all the judgement you want on me regarding this child you know nothing about. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you think that just because your friend's child with a 'heart problem' started school on time and thrived, any child with a 'heart problem' would likely do the same. Are you even aware of how many different congenital heart diseases there out there? That they run the gamut from rather simple to extremely complex? That even chldren with the exact same CHD can present completely different from one another. The teacher should do her homework before she speaks. The ignorance that is rearing it's ugly head here is rather frightening.

While I personally don't care, I surely understand why some might roll their eyes when they hear other's have waited to send their kids to school later in an effort to give them an athletic edge. Maybe even when they hear about kids who were truly ready academically but were held back in an effort to give them an academic edge. But kids who are not developmentally ready? That simply defies logic.

Actually in MA children are REQUIRED to be in school no earlier than the age of 5 (by Sept. 1st) and no later than 6. That's called a guideline and the law gives parents the ability to make the ultimate decision. I can only imagine that a similar guideline is in place across the country. So bottom line? Just because YOU don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Parents are well within their rights.

You worry about your own kid and let me worry about mine ok?

no one is passing judgment, just expressing a different opinion. No two kids are alkie, regardless of their illness or disability, and that is what i was trying to point out. I am not ignorant of anatomy, or stupid. Of course I realize there is a huge scope of congenital defects of the heart, but regardless of the defect, open heart surgery is serious, and recovery is lengthly. I told the story to point out that one can go though such a procedure and continue on time with schooling. You just never know, especially with kids. Some of us choose to err on the side of giving kids a chance. It is a different way of doing things, not a judgment on anyone. I think mabye you are just a little hypersensitive about the subject. I haven't seen anyone here attack you or your decision, but have seen some try to explain why THEY might have chosen differently, and offer examples of people in similar situations who chose a diffeerent path that didn't lead to disaster. That doesn't mean they are attacking you, just experssing a different opinion.

 

[princessmom29]

You're right, you don't. But there's a lot more potential damage done by pushing a child ahead than by holding back, and the things Pac described absolutely do happen with kids who just aren't ready for school. Been there, done that.

I have no doubt that I was 110% wrong to "give it a try" and send DS on time; a full year of stomach aches and headaches and phantom illnesses and crying over getting out the door in the morning, teachers who decided by November that he wasn't ready to be there and didn't even look for a reason for his struggling, other kids who teased him for being a "baby" because his interests had more in common with younger kids and for being in the "dumb" reading group and needing pull-out support. And for all of that the school recommended retention anyway, so it was just a wasted year of bad experiences that had a lasting effect on his attitudes towards school in general.

I am sorry your child had a bad experience. That should NEVER have happened to your child. No teacher has a right to pass that kind of judgment on a child. He should have been helped to catch up, not treated like he was "dumb". There are several children in DDs' class that get pull out services for reading, but the kids don't even realize what is going on, or that there is a difference between them and the other children. Others are pulled for voice lessons, violin, enrichment ect so there is no stigma attached. I really like the setup of therreading intervention program and it is one of our reasons for choosing this school. If DD ever needs help, it makes me feel a little more secure that she can get it in a supportive environment. Every child deserves that chance.

 

[pacrosby]

We don't know what we are talking about because you never mentioned your son's medical issues in your first post. This is a message board, you put yourself out there for other's opinions. Sorry you don't like them.

I'm sorry but all I did was put out my 'story'. That's it. I wasn't arguing a point of view. And I didn't mention the medical history because it wasn't relevant. I held him because he wasn't developmentally ready.

I don't mind people having and expressing opposing points of view so long as they are objective and respectful. There simply wasn't enough information presented in my posts for the assumptions and accusations that followed. I would have been more than willing to clarify my position if someone had asked. Unfortunatly more people seem to be interested in shoving their particular point of view down other people's throats rather than in having a thoughtful discussion.

 

[pacrosby]

no one is passing judgment, just expressing a different opinion. No two kids are alkie, regardless of their illness or disability, and that is what i was trying to point out. I am not ignorant of anatomy, or stupid. Of course I realize there is a huge scope of congenital defects of the heart, but regardless of the defect, open heart surgery is serious, and recovery is lengthly. I told the story to point out that one can go though such a procedure and continue on time with schooling. You just never know, especially with kids. Some of us choose to err on the side of giving kids a chance. It is a different way of doing things, not a judgment on anyone. I think mabye you are just a little hypersensitive about the subject. I haven't seen anyone here attack you or your decision, but have seen some try to explain why THEY might have chosen differently, and offer examples of people in similar situations who chose a diffeerent path that didn't lead to disaster. That doesn't mean they are attacking you, just experssing a different opinion.

You can dress it in whatever pretty clothes you would like but when you repeatedly address someone else's choices......telling them that YOU would have done things differently........citing examples of how others (who you "assume" have similar circumstances) made different choices and how terrific things turned out for them.....you are in a manner of speaking passing judgement on the decision that person has made.

Please understand.....when you don't have all the facts because you don't know me or my child or the specifics of his medical condition/history and it's developmental consequences and, as a result, you simply are in no place to form an opinion about the decision that "I" have made about "my" child. Talk in generalities all you like but don't start pointing the finger at me and the decisions I have made for my child.

And if you 'insist' on pointing the finger at me, then please, at least get the facts straight. I never said anything about holding him because he had open heart surgery. ?????????? I said he was not developmentally ready. And no,



Hypersensitive? Did you get a load of some of the rudeness above? And I'm not the only one who noticed. You bet your patootie I'm hypersensitive LOL And even someone with only a half a heart (like my son) would certainly understand why.

 

[princessmom29]

You can dress it in whatever pretty clothes you would like but when you repeatedly 'question' someone else's choices......tell them that YOU would have done things differently........cite examples of how others (who you "assume" have similar circumstances) made different choices and how terrific things turned out for them.....you are in a manner of speaking passing judgement on the decision that person has made.

Accept it, you don't have all the facts because you don't know me or my child or the specifics of his medical condition/history and it's developmental consequences. You simply are in no place to form an opinion about the decision that "I" have made about "my" child. Talk in generalities all you like but don't start pointing the finger at me.

And if you 'insist' on pointing the finger at me, then please, at least get the facts straight. I never said anything about holding him because he had open heart surgery. ?????????? I said he was not developmentally ready.



Hypersensitive? Did you get a load of some of the rudeness above? And I'm not the only one who noticed. You bet I'm hypersensitive LOL

agian no one is passing judgment, or pointing a finger. I am sorry you feel that way. there would be no discussion without differences of opinion. You are getting offendend when none was meant, and it isn't just me not understanding the anger here. I never said YOUR child had open heatr surgery or that his is why you held him back, but the child i was discussing DID and still managed to go to school on time dispite heart problems that are very limitn and a major surgery just months before starting K. I am simply saying that it CAN be done. Having mediacal issues does not automatically mean a child needs to be redshirted. If anything, in most cases, those children need as normal an experience as possible. Tehy want to do what every other child thier age is doing. I really don't understand where you are getting the idea that anyone is judging you by saying they would or have made different choices for thier children. I for one wish I had the option of sending my DD to K a year before she went, but the rule here is that you MUST be 5 by sept 1 to start, no exceptions. She missed it by 6 weeks and was obviously ready, but Iwas not given an option.

 

[princessmom29]

I'm sorry but all I did was put out my 'story'. That's it. I wasn't arguing a point of view. And I didn't mention the medical history because it wasn't relevant. I held him because he wasn't developmentally ready.

I don't mind people having and expressing opposing points of view so long as they are objective and respectful. There simply wasn't enough information presented in my posts for the assumptions and accusations that followed. I would have been more than willing to clarify my position if someone had asked. Unfortunatly more people seem to be interested in shoving their particular point of view down other people's throats rather than in having a thoughtful discussion.

but it IS ABSOLUTELY relevant to the discussion. It is vital information. Any major mediacl issue would have to be a consideration in holding a child back or not. For about the 5th time, no one is judging your decision, but without proper infromation, we cannot fully understand it.

 

[pacrosby]

but it IS ABSOLUTELY relevant to the discussion. It is vital information.

It is not vital information because, again, it is not why I held him back.

Even if he did not have the history, I would have held him back because he was not developmentally ready. The 'history' simply provides a plausible explanation as to the lag in development.

 

[princessmom29]

It is not vital information because, again, it is not why I held him back.

Even if he did not have the history, I would have held him back because he was not developmentally ready. The 'history' simply provides a plausible explanation as to the lag in development.

Dress it in whatever pretty clothes you want....

Serously, I am done. You obvously want ot be offended so go ahead. You said something earlier about making someoen feel bad, and tihnk that is it. You are looking to make someone feel bad. Not biting.