"Red Shirt" Vent

[dogluva]

On the other side of the coin you have my neice. She started K at the age of 4. Her September birthday was a week before the school district's cutoff date. She began college at the age of 17 and was unable to sign for her own student loans because she was not legally an adult yet. She started her senior year at the age of 16 and was never able to drive to school. She will be the last of her classmates to turn 21 and has had to sit out when all of them planned casino trips to celebrate that milestone birthday. She was ready to start K both academically and emotionally so I don't think that my sister even considered holding her back for a year. But being "young" has always been a sore spot for her.

I was able to get my son's schedule when he started college because he was not 18 yet. The woman was not going to get it for me (he needed it and was working) but then saw that he was still underage so she gave it to me. She said she never sees 17 year olds start college. No because kids are graduating at almost 20 from high school. I cannot see how this helps kids in the long run. By 18 you should really be a senior, not a junior and in some instances, a sophmore.

My son never cared about being the youngest. He is a big kid and looks a lot older.

 

[princessmom29]

I guess my younger son qualifies as being "red-shirted", as he as a mid-Nov. birthday and here we have Dec. 1st cut off. We made this decision based on what was best for him academically. The year before, he cried everyday when we left him at pre-school and had a hard time in general seperating from us. The extra year made a big difference, and he entered kindergarten confident and happy. He is right in line academically with the rest of his class and has lots of friends.

In our district K is all day 5 days a week. The kids walk down the halls to their special classes and eat lunch in the cafeteria.

I didn't realize K existed where kids didn't walk down the halls, carry thier own trays at lunch ect. My DD was doing that in K-3. They had "school" form 9-12, then lunch and a nap. K-4 was the same setup, and K was 8-3, no nap. K was full day here 25 years ago when I was in K, and 45 years ago when mom was in K.

 

[dogluva]

I guess my 3rd child most definately qualifies for the 'red-shirt' title since our cut-off is 5 yrs old by Sept 1st, his birthday is January 1st, and he didn't start K until he was 6.5. "Could" he have managed if he had gone when he was 5.5? I'm sure he could have 'managed' but it would have been a struggle. And not behaviorally....he would have had no problem sitting and listening and following directions. Academically though, yes. He simply, developmentally, was not ready. Why would I knowingly set him up for for failure like that?

Nevermind the fact that he's also the size of his little brother who is 2.5 yrs younger than him LOL

He's in the first grade now and will turn 8 next week. He loves that he is the oldest in the class (and laughs because no one, given his size, ever believes him). He has more than a few friends who are within 6 months of him so he's not "that" much older than "everyone else". Like others have said, school isn't like it used to be. The expectations, academically, set for these early elementary school-aged kids are much greater; the pressures; the responsibilities. No, I'm not setting any of my kids up for failure. I have no doubt that we made the right decision. He is happy, well-adjusted, and thriving where he is at. I thought that was the ultimate goal.

If your son and my son were in the same grade, your son would have been 1 year and 10 months older than my son. I think of Jan. as being a early birthday, usually those born in Jan and sent to school on time are the oldest in the class, never mind being kept home!

My daughter is actually younger than your son by a few months and is a grade ahead.

 

[dogluva]

I guess my younger son qualifies as being "red-shirted", as he as a mid-Nov. birthday and here we have Dec. 1st cut off. We made this decision based on what was best for him academically. The year before, he cried everyday when we left him at pre-school and had a hard time in general seperating from us. The extra year made a big difference, and he entered kindergarten confident and happy. He is right in line academically with the rest of his class and has lots of friends.

In our district K is all day 5 days a week. The kids walk down the halls to their special classes and eat lunch in the cafeteria.

I don't have a problem with this because he barely makes it. The other poster's son made the cut off by 8 months! In his case, maybe he needs it but really, what if all the parents held their kids back-we would have a ton of 8 year olds in first grade! How is this fair to the kids almost two years younger than them? Maybe the kids don't really care now but what about high school? I, personally, don't want my 13 daughter in a classroom with a 15 year old boy who is shaving.

 

[herdtoDisney]

I really hate late cut-offs in schools... Dec 1 is just silly - you could technically have an entire K class of 4yo's. Then they take the state tests, but they're being compared to 5-6yo's in different districts. Something's very wrong there.

It's not 'late'-it's the cutoff established by the state or city or school. In my state, it's Dec 31st. Interestingly, I have not experienced any of these redshirting issues with my kids' classes. Typically, the class consists of children born in that particular year (ex, everyone was born in 2003). You might have the occasional redshirted kid, but not typically.

I think the early cutoffs are silly. I have three kids who would have missed out on a wonderful year of school, had we lived in a place with one. This also takes away the parents' choice in the matter-and doesn't prevent redshirting. I'm fine with other people redshirting their kids if they choose, but I also want the right to enroll my child in the correct year.

 

[DCbride]

When DS was in soccer his birthday was the cutoff for travel teams (Aug 1) we were given the option of playing at either level. The first 3 years he played "up" then most of his friends were younger so he joined their team and became the oldest player. We didn't really care either way, they played had fun won some lost some. He currently plays club level in college so I guess it worked for him.

I just thought it was interesting that the grade didn't matter, just the actual birthdate.

 

[palavra]

It's not 'late'-it's the cutoff established by the state or city or school. In my state, it's Dec 31st. Interestingly, I have not experienced any of these redshirting issues with my kids' classes. Typically, the class consists of children born in that particular year (ex, everyone was born in 2003). You might have the occasional redshirted kid, but not typically.

I think the early cutoffs are silly. I have three kids who would have missed out on a wonderful year of school, had we lived in a place with one. This also takes away the parents' choice in the matter-and doesn't prevent redshirting. I'm fine with other people redshirting their kids if they choose, but I also want the right to enroll my child in the correct year.

I think this post shows the problems with assigning a child to a grade by age. Kids learn at different rates, especially in the early years. Maybe one child is truly ready for kindergarten at 4 and another isn't ready until age 6. What does it matter?

 

[herdtoDisney]

I think this post shows the problems with assigning a child to a grade by age. Kids learn at different rates, especially in the early years. Maybe one child is truly ready for kindergarten at 4 and another isn't ready until age 6. What does it matter?

I actually agree with you, but there has to be some sort of age cutoff. I think doing it by year is probably the most level. In my state, K is not mandatory and school attendance is not compulsory until age 7 (or upon K enrollment). So parents do get a lot of leeway in start time for K, which I agree with. In my city at least, it's pretty typical to just start them with the kids of their birth year. I know that, in some of the insanely wealthy areas (Fairfield Co) many kids never even go to K, they do private school/daycare and enroll directly into 1st grade in the public school (which tend to be super well funded and high ranked there).

 

[princessmom29]

I think this post shows the problems with assigning a child to a grade by age. Kids learn at different rates, especially in the early years. Maybe one child is truly ready for kindergarten at 4 and another isn't ready until age 6. What does it matter?

but who gets to decide who is ready? If there is not age at which my child is required to be in school, I could aregue that my 9 year old is "not ready" to be in school yet. There has to be a line drawn somewhere. What needs to hapeen is that everyone goes to school at 5, the children are evaluated, and thier individual needs met.

 

[averysmom]

People with kids that are the young ones in their classes care not because just 1 parent holds back a child that needs to be held back but because there are many in each class that are held back and not all of them because they needed extra time to succeed in Kindy.

In some area's it is the norm to hold back and it makes it more difficult for the younger (but age appropriate child) to succeed. The classes go faster than they would usually go, they are challenged by being smaller or developmentally less mature, and it does effect outside activities such as sports. All of these things put them at a disadvantage and *could* hurt confidence and possible opportunities.

Standardized tests are not graded by age but by grade. And knowing the class material is not the only factor in a test. The children need to sit through the test, follow the directions properly etc. When a significant portion of the class is older by more than 12 months, it can make the youngest child look not as capable.

This is the reason many parents choose to hold their child back to give that advantage and when so many are doing it, it will start to really disadvantage others.

That is why other parents care. Not due to 1, but the many. Personally I don't care if you hold your child back, but it does effect my child who is one of the youngest. But I understood what I was getting into by sending her on time and yet sometimes I do wonder "what if" I had held her back. Would things be better for her?

BTW she does very well in school and sport(and she is tiny to boot) and if I had held her back she would have looked advanced for her grade. Instead she is average which is fine by me but like I said, I do wonder if I too should have done what so many other do.

ITA with all of this!

 

[ajk912]

I don't have a problem with this because he barely makes it. The other poster's son made the cut off by 8 months! In his case, maybe he needs it but really, what if all the parents held their kids back-we would have a ton of 8 year olds in first grade! How is this fair to the kids almost two years younger than them? Maybe the kids don't really care now but what about high school? I, personally, don't want my 13 daughter in a classroom with a 15 year old boy who is shaving.

By the time they get to the higher grades there is a wide range of ages anyway due to transfers from schools with different cutoffs, retentions, and redshirting. I am confused by the November birthday for the cutoff though..unless the OP's state is one of those with a Dec cutoff, and then ABSOLUTELY I'd red shirt my kid. So I agree with the OP's classmate's mom who decided to have the Oct kid repeat. Most states have August or Sept cutoffs..and unless kindergarten is easier in your state than the others, it's probably best if kids with summer birthdays or later do an extra year of preschool. Around here there are a lot of demands in elementary school, so it's unofficially recommended that your child go to school the year they will be turning 6 in the school year. Otherwise, the decision will likely be made for you (when the school retains the child the following year if they can't keep up with the demanding schedule).

 

[MSSANDRA]

Our state keeps pushing the start date back. It was October 17, and is now August 30. There is discussion to push it back again. I hope it happens. Kindergarten demands increase every year and while most 5 year olds may be able to be made to sit for 6-7 hours a day, I am so glad that parents still have a choice to not make their child sit for that long every day! In our private preschool, we have about 20% choose to give their child an extra year most years and about 20-30% more choose a 1/2 day private kindergarten.

I think it depends so much on where you live.

 

[2girlsR2good]

When a significant portion of the class is older by more than 12 months, it can make the youngest child look not as capable.

This is the reason many parents choose to hold their child back to give that advantage and when so many are doing it, it will start to really disadvantage others.

That is why other parents care. Not due to 1, but the many.

I totally agree. I was called in for a conference just before Christmas to discuss my daughter's performance in 1st grade. The teacher wanted her to go back to kindergarten after the break. She has a March birthday and is one of the youngest students in the class, anyone with a summer birthday waited a year. There are a couple of April/May birthdays after hers, but there are also several in the class are a year or more older than her.

When we looked at her skills, it turned out that she was reading on a first grade level as of Dec 1. Her math is also on the first grade level. My husband asked "well, what's the problem?" and we heard that, while she's at grade level, she's not where the rest of her class is. They are moving on to 2nd grade level work in January.

So, what we have is a group of 7/8 year olds doing second grade work. In a class called first grade. The 6 year old doing first grade work doesn't belong. My heart is broken for the options--moving back labels her a failure. We can't sell it to her as a good thing. Staying in a mismatched class is not good either. We've decided we're not moving her to K in January, but we're considering changing schools for 2nd grade.

 

[Leajess99]

ya know, this is true, and I actually hated it for my dd. She has a mid-Oct bday, our school cut-off is Dec 1, so she started K at 4yo. But when she started softball, the cut-off was different than the school cut-off, so her classmates would have moved up before she did, and she would have had to play w/ the younger grade kids. So that's totally not fair either. (she doesn't play anymore anyway, but I was upset everyone but her would have moved to the next level - and she was as good as everyone else, and these were her "peers" according to gov't rules and regulations, which are what put her in their grade in the first place... knim? The local leagues should be consistant w/ how the local districts have their cut-offs... one way or the other.

I really hate late cut-offs in schools... Dec 1 is just silly - you could technically have an entire K class of 4yo's. Then they take the state tests, but they're being compared to 5-6yo's in different districts. Something's very wrong there.

But at the same time all sports have different cutoffs based on their seasons. For soccer here it is based off of the US Youth Soccer Association's rules. There are still kids who do not get to play with their peeres because their birthday is Aug 1st or after based off soccer cutoff and before October 1st which is the school cutoff. You will never be able to please everyone. Also, did your league not allow early move up requests??

 

[MSSANDRA]

Most of the sports teams in our area allow kids to play up but not down. The cut off age is different than schools for preschool age kids but after kindergarten they go by grade on most sports. A 2nd grader could play on the 3rd grade team if they want but not the 1st.

 

[Leajess99]

I guess my 3rd child most definately qualifies for the 'red-shirt' title since our cut-off is 5 yrs old by Sept 1st, his birthday is January 1st, and he didn't start K until he was 6.5. "Could" he have managed if he had gone when he was 5.5? I'm sure he could have 'managed' but it would have been a struggle. And not behaviorally....he would have had no problem sitting and listening and following directions. Academically though, yes. He simply, developmentally, was not ready. Why would I knowingly set him up for for failure like that?

Nevermind the fact that he's also the size of his little brother who is 2.5 yrs younger than him LOL

He's in the first grade now and will turn 8 next week. He loves that he is the oldest in the class (and laughs because no one, given his size, ever believes him). He has more than a few friends who are within 6 months of him so he's not "that" much older than "everyone else". Like others have said, school isn't like it used to be. The expectations, academically, set for these early elementary school-aged kids are much greater; the pressures; the responsibilities. No, I'm not setting any of my kids up for failure. I have no doubt that we made the right decision. He is happy, well-adjusted, and thriving where he is at. I thought that was the ultimate goal.

And see these are the kids that people have issues with. My daughter's 8th birthday is on the 12th and there is no way I would have ever thought to hold her from starting school at 5 1/2. Sorry but that is just ridiculous IMHO. My poor kid is bored in 2nd grade especially in Math so I could just imagine what she would be feeling like in 1st grade. And honestly, size is again a ridiculous reason in considering holding back. My son had a child the size of a young Kindergartener on his Under 10 soccer team and the child was 9. That child got out there and played and did not care about size. he would challenge anyone.

I guess I fail to understand how sending a 5 1/2 year old to Kindergarten is "setting them up for failure". I know plenty of parents and school staff that would be peeved to have that child in their children's 1st grade class just as the ones that had the 8 year old in last year's 1st grade class were. It gets ridiculous especially for the young kids in the class.

 

[princessmom29]

Our state keeps pushing the start date back. It was October 17, and is now August 30. There is discussion to push it back again. I hope it happens. Kindergarten demands increase every year and while most 5 year olds may be able to be made to sit for 6-7 hours a day, I am so glad that parents still have a choice to not make their child sit for that long every day! In our private preschool, we have about 20% choose to give their child an extra year most years and about 20-30% more choose a 1/2 day private kindergarten.

I think it depends so much on where you live.

If the kids are truly sitting for 6-7 hours then there is a SERIOUS problem with the curriculim. At that age they shouldn't be spending more than 20 min between transitions to new activities. I have NEVER seen a K curric. that requires 6-7 hours of a child sitting in a desk. We don't ask our high school students to spend 6-7 hours tied to a desk every day. they have PE and some sort of elective every day. In K, at most there would be a 2-3 hours total spread throughout the day in managable chunks. If your school system truly asks 5 year olds to sit in a desk for 6 hours a day then they have MUCH bigger problems than redshirting, and holding a child out an extra year in NOT going to fix it.

 

[Leajess99]

I didn't realize K existed where kids didn't walk down the halls, carry thier own trays at lunch ect. My DD was doing that in K-3. They had "school" form 9-12, then lunch and a nap. K-4 was the same setup, and K was 8-3, no nap. K was full day here 25 years ago when I was in K, and 45 years ago when mom was in K.

My son was in full day Kindergarten 12 years ago. I am still amazed at people comparing it to years ago. None of my kids have gone to half day Kindergarten but after working as a TA in a half day program I hated it. They tried to put as much in that half day as the kids in full day got and the kids get frustrated by not enough time. Out of 3 kids I have not seen one that had to sit all day or the majority of it. This is just a sampling of what the schedules for a couple of teachers around here are and they are from different schools even -



7:15-7:40- Arrival

Breakfast, Attendance, Morning Message, Question of the Day

7:40- 8:00-Announcements & Pledge, Morning Circle Time and Calendar Math

8:00- 8:45- Math Time

8:45-9:15- Literacy Circle Time

Shared Reading/Word Work (Whole Group)

9:15- 10:40- Literacy Rotation Centers- Guided Reading/Writing/

Workshop Centers (Computer Lab- Monday, 10- 10:30)
(Restroom/Prepare for Lunch)

10:40- 11:05- Lunch

11:05- 11:45- Read and Relax Time, Theme Read Aloud (Restroom)

11:45- 12:35- Special Class

Monday-Visual Arts Tuesday-Practical Living Wednesday-Music

Thursday- Fine Arts Friday- Physical Education (GYM)

12:35-1:10- Free Choice Centers

Blocks, Math, Alphabet, Writing, Listening, Reading, Computer, Read the Room, Creative Art, Science, Discovery, Housekeeping, Library Check-out

1:10- 1:40- Social Skills Time-Indoor/Outdoor Gross Motor/Snack Time (Restroom)

1:40- 2:05- Theme Time (Science and Social Studies)

2:05- 2:20- Afternoon Circle Time

Review Day/ Prepare for Departure

School #2 =
7:10- 7:40 - Breakfast/Opening Activities

7:40- 7:50 - Morning Message

7:50- 9:00 - Literacy First - small groups

9:00-9:50 - Literacy First - whole group (Monday and Wednesday - computers at 9.)

9:50-10:20 - Science/Social Studies

10:20-10:40 - Lunch

10:40-11:30 - Gross Motor/Social Centers

11:30-11:55 - Calendar Math

11:55-12:35 - Related Arts (Art, Music, PE)

12:35-1:20 - Math

1:20-1:50 - Rest time

1:50 - 2:00 - Snack

2:00- 2:15 - Review/Closing Activities

 

[princessmom29]

And see these are the kids that people have issues with. My daughter's 8th birthday is on the 12th and there is no way I would have ever thought to hold her from starting school at 5 1/2. Sorry but that is just ridiculous IMHO. My poor kid is bored in 2nd grade especially in Math so I could just imagine what she would be feeling like in 1st grade. And honestly, size is again a ridiculous reason in considering holding back. My son had a child the size of a young Kindergartener on his Under 10 soccer team and the child was 9. That child got out there and played and did not care about size. he would challenge anyone.

I guess I fail to understand how sending a 5 1/2 year old to Kindergarten is "setting them up for failure". I know plenty of parents and school staff that would be peeved to have that child in their children's 1st grade class just as the ones that had the 8 year old in last year's 1st grade class were. It gets ridiculous especially for the young kids in the class.

I absoultely get where you are coming from with this. We saw it play out very poorly in DD's class last year.

My DD is an October birthday forced ot start K at almost 6. Our cutoff is September 1, and school starts the second week in August. She was bored in K, and is bored in 1st grade this year as well, but she does fine and I would rather her be a little bored than struggling just to get by, KWIM? but, She had kids in her class a full year older than her. Yes, peeved was putting it mildly as far as the other parents in the class went last year. We had no end of trouble form the two in the class who turned 7 a month after school started, in fact most of the major issues in the room centerd around these 2 children, because they were bored, and no one wanted to hold them responsible for their actions at home. My child was not involved in very much of it, but some of the other parents were lobbying to have thier children moved out of the class, it got so bad. They were bigger than the other kids in the room by a fair margin and had nothing better to do than be bullies because they had learned everything covered in K already. Why were they held back?? SPORTS. The parents wanted them to be the biggest on the football team.

 

[Leajess99]

I totally agree. I was called in for a conference just before Christmas to discuss my daughter's performance in 1st grade. The teacher wanted her to go back to kindergarten after the break. She has a March birthday and is one of the youngest students in the class, anyone with a summer birthday waited a year. There are a couple of April/May birthdays after hers, but there are also several in the class are a year or more older than her.

When we looked at her skills, it turned out that she was reading on a first grade level as of Dec 1. Her math is also on the first grade level. My husband asked "well, what's the problem?" and we heard that, while she's at grade level, she's not where the rest of her class is. They are moving on to 2nd grade level work in January.

So, what we have is a group of 7/8 year olds doing second grade work. In a class called first grade. The 6 year old doing first grade work doesn't belong. My heart is broken for the options--moving back labels her a failure. We can't sell it to her as a good thing. Staying in a mismatched class is not good either. We've decided we're not moving her to K in January, but we're considering changing schools for 2nd grade.

See that is what is ridiculous. The child is being punished for being on grade level because so much inconsideration. Maybe the school needs to make a class for these red shirts so that the real 1st graders can be where they need to be. My middle one has a May birthday and has always been one of the youngest ones and is once again with having kids 2 years older than her in her classes. I would have been livid had the school mentioned sending her back to Kindergarten because she was on grade level. This is why redshirting needs to stop with some exceptions.