Re-sale gone wrong - Sellers lied - What do I do?

[DonDon]

Hope everything works out for the OP.

If disney waives ROFR on a contract, there is still a few weeks time until actual closing. Are the sellers restricted from using, banking or making reservations during those few weeks? Or do they check again right before closing?

If Fidelity is getting paid on this sale, IMO they have an obligation to perform due dilagence and verify the product they are selling.

 

[FindingFigment]

If Fidelity is getting paid on this sale, IMO they have an obligation to perform due dilagence and verify the product they are selling.

I agree. But I was told by the same co-broker Tammy mentioned that it can sometimes take a couple of weeks to get a response back from Disney on the exact status of the points. But TTS doesn't seem to have this problem. They don't post listings until they've been checked. Does anyone know why there is a difference in protocol?

 

[Normangirls]

Hi, everyone! Thanks so much for all the insight and advice. Unfortunately I don't have any shocking or exciting revelations to share!

I talked to Rachel at Fidelity this morning, and she told me that we can either:
1. Sign the revised addendum, accepting the reduced number of points, and continue on through ROFR, or
2. Change the contract and re-submit for ROFR - this is what would happen if we renegotiated the purchase price to compensate for the "lost" points.

There are no other options as Fidelity sees it. They do not believe DVC would honor our old submission date if we make any significant changes to the contract.

I asked her if she would recommend re-negotiating the price, and she basically said it was up to me. She said the seller seemed "flexible" (her word) since they were paying closing costs and mf, and they seemed anxious to sell. But she has not talked to them in person.

I asked her for clarification as to how this could have happened, and she told me that Fidelity gets a point statement when they first list a resale (which in our case and at that time backed up the seller's claims), and then send the seller a letter telling them to notify Fidelity of any changes (which our seller failed to do). Apparently they do not check the point status anywhere else along the way.

She has ordered a point history so we can see exactly what happened to these points, for all the good it will do.

I hate to lose our pre-March 30th ROFR submission, but I feel less and less willing to do business with these sellers. This was not a mistake, and not an oversight, it was an attempt at fraud. I'm inclined to walk away and find a deal we can live with with a seller we can trust. And just maybe a new broker.

 

[TisBit]

While it sucks and I afeel for your loss of points, I don't think the broker can be held responsible for a bad buyer. Another thread asked about this very issue and the truth is, the broker will not pull a points statement every day. I guess the lesson everyone needs to know is, request a points statement with the contract, this way you can see they are there. But it doesn't help your situation now.

A new broker won't matter and having to do business with this seller, really you are not in a long term relationship with them, so you might not want to cut off your nose to spite your face. The real question is, even with the missing points, are you going to get the same deal or better? Is the restrictions worth anything to you......it is the answer to these questions that should be the basis for your decision to go through with the sale.

If the restrictions are worth a thousand bucks, ask for a reduction in price. If you can get the same deal or better from someone else, but know you still will lose the restrictions, ask for two grand off, just to stick it to them and let the walk away.

 

[Mtnman44]

For what it is worth, you have an opportunity to save some money here and hold the sellers over a barrel. Send them a low ball offer and live with the "post 3/20 status". That is what I would do. Keep in mind that: the perks that "pre 3/20" contracts will be allowed to remain elligible for all all the things that for years almost everyone on this board have been advising people "not to use DVC points for", "Don't buy DVC for crusies and trades", etc, etc.

So, for as long as I can remember, using DVC points for cruises or trades was always considered to be a wastefull use of points and certainly a very very bad reason to buy them specifically for these uses. I see no reason to suddenly "need" DVC points for these uses. Would I like to know I have the option? Sure, I guess. Would I ever use the option? No Way. I would need around 700 to 900 DVC points to take my family on a cruise. LOL

Hi, everyone! Thanks so much for all the insight and advice. Unfortunately I don't have any shocking or exciting revelations to share!

I talked to Rachel at Fidelity this morning, and she told me that we can either:
1. Sign the revised addendum, accepting the reduced number of points, and continue on through ROFR, or
2. Change the contract and re-submit for ROFR - this is what would happen if we renegotiated the purchase price to compensate for the "lost" points.

There are no other options as Fidelity sees it. They do not believe DVC would honor our old submission date if we make any significant changes to the contract.

I asked her if she would recommend re-negotiating the price, and she basically said it was up to me. She said the seller seemed "flexible" (her word) since they were paying closing costs and mf, and they seemed anxious to sell. But she has not talked to them in person.

I asked her for clarification as to how this could have happened, and she told me that Fidelity gets a point statement when they first list a resale (which in our case and at that time backed up the seller's claims), and then send the seller a letter telling them to notify Fidelity of any changes (which our seller failed to do). Apparently they do not check the point status anywhere else along the way.

She has ordered a point history so we can see exactly what happened to these points, for all the good it will do.

I hate to lose our pre-March 30th ROFR submission, but I feel less and less willing to do business with these sellers. This was not a mistake, and not an oversight, it was an attempt at fraud. I'm inclined to walk away and find a deal we can live with with a seller we can trust. And just maybe a new broker.

 

[Normangirls]

So, for as long as I can remember, using DVC points for cruises or trades was always considered to be a wastefull use of points and certainly a very very bad reason to buy them specifically for these uses.

I totally agree, and we don't really plan to use the points for those purposes, so I really just need to let go of my March-20th-Madness!

 

[Normangirls]

Rachel received a point summary, and it shows that the seller used the points sometime after they listed with Fidelity, but before they accepted our offer. They banked the remaining 42 points the day before we signed our agreement, in response to our request (of course, our request was that all 150 points be banked).

There's no doubt to me the seller was deliberate in his actions. Whether Fidelity should have done anything different to avoid this type of situation is unclear to me.

So, just as you all have told me from the beginning, we will have to decide if the deal is still too good to walk away from, or wash our hands of it and start looking elsewhere.

As for sticking with Fidelity, I do know that I sent a request for information on a listing at TTS last night, and they got back with me, in person, within 15 minutes. I usually don't consider that kind of personal/immediate service absolutely necessary, but it was kind of refreshing after this last deal has left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[5forDiz]

For what it is worth, you have an opportunity to save some money here and hold the sellers over a barrel. Send them a low ball offer and live with the "post 3/20 status". That is what I would do. Keep in mind that: the perks that "pre 3/20" contracts will be allowed to remain elligible for all all the things that for years almost everyone on this board have been advising people "not to use DVC points for", "Don't buy DVC for crusies and trades", etc, etc.

So, for as long as I can remember, using DVC points for cruises or trades was always considered to be a wastefull use of points and certainly a very very bad reason to buy them specifically for these uses. I see no reason to suddenly "need" DVC points for these uses. Would I like to know I have the option? Sure, I guess. Would I ever use the option? No Way. I would need around 700 to 900 DVC points to take my family on a cruise. LOL

I think you have made excellent points here

If the seller really is anxious to unload the contract they may very well be willing to accept low offer and it could have a good chance of passing ROFR. So that, for me, would be a win. OP, I hope you get some satisfaction out of this very frustrating situation I would make an offer that is at a minimum, reduced by at least the amount of MFs related to those points that you won't receive (108 x per pt MF cost for whatever resort it is) or as other posters here have suggested based upon the cost per point if you rented 108 points.

Best wishes

 

[dbs1228]

Normangirls for what its worth I do think you got a good deal on this contract especially with sellers paying closing cost and maintance fees along with getting the 3/20 deadline. I agree it is crappy what the sellers did but if you can get past that and look at what you are left with I still think it is a good deal. It is certainly up to you but if you look at contracts that are waiting ROFR and that have past (which I am sure you have) I think the price you got along with not having to pay closing/MF you are on the lower end of the spectrum price wise. Now it comes down weighing out the principle of the whole ordeal vs. moving forward and almost being done with the process on your way to making your 1st ressie. Only you can decide.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[quinnc19]

Even though this has been a very frustrating situation, I agree that you might not want to cut off your nose to spite your face as pp mentioned. If it were me, I think I would deduct $10 per point missing, plus whatever you feel the loss of these perks means to you per point, and offer that. The fact is you may get a better deal if you persist with this one than you might starting fresh (at least in the near future). Good luck!

 

[Buckeye Fan]

FWIW, here's something to consider. While nothing's known at this point, we do know that Disney is trying to make a play to segment resales before 3/21 and after. We may find that nothing ever happens other than cruises, Concierge Collection and Disney Adventure bookings in terms of incentives. However, if they start doing other things (like discounting park tickets, providing discounts on dining plans, etc.), will it be worth it to lose the 3/21 deadline?

It's a complete gamble, and all we know is what we know at this point, which is NOTHING more or less than what Disney announced. Just thought I'd mention it in case you just wanted to roll the dice and move ahead with the purchase.

So sorry that happened. It seemed very deliberate, and someone who banked two days before you went into contract completely knew what was going on. I guess does it make you mad enough for you to walk away, and I completely respect the tough position you're in. I'm not sure what I would do at this point if I were in your shoes.

Thanks for keeping us updated! Looking forward to hearing what we can do so we can celebrate with you (even if its less than ideal) or root you on as you find a more suitable contract!

 

[palaemon]

The thing that really sucks is that this situation can never happen again. In the past, if you had this issue, you'd renegotiate and resubmit. No harm - no foul.

The 3/20 thing is really the wrench.

Personally, I doubt Disney will add further changes - at least none that are crucial. Where's the evidence that they will? As pp said, everyone has said for years - "Don't use points for anything except DVC."

A lot of people (obviously by the number of resale purchases) are stuck on "what if?" DVC will be a "deal" pretty much no matter what.

 

[JimMIA]

I asked her if she would recommend re-negotiating the price, and she basically said it was up to me. She said the seller seemed "flexible" (her word) since they were paying closing costs and mf, and they seemed anxious to sell. But she has not talked to them in person.

WHY on earth has she NOT even spoken with these people??? Her attitude toward this mess is very poor. Her response is basically, "Oh well..."

If this happened to me, I'd be filing a complaint with the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation, which regulates all real estate brokers in Florida.

I hate to lose our pre-March 30th ROFR submission, but I feel less and less willing to do business with these sellers. This was not a mistake, and not an oversight, it was an attempt at fraud. I'm inclined to walk away and find a deal we can live with with a seller we can trust. And just maybe a new broker.

That would certainly be my response. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[extremesoccermom]

Sorry to hear this. I have a similar situation. I have used Fidelity before with no problem. However, last year I found a perfect 100 point loaded contract. My bid was excepted but before sending it to ROFR I asked for the current points to be banked for my future trip. Rachael came back and told me they were incorrect and the point available were not the current years. Luckily I found out ahead of time. I decided it was not acceptable so I asked to renegotiate based on the prices I had been seeing on contracts without points which was 5.00 less per point. I never heard back. I figured it was not meant to be. Good Luck. The right one will come along if you are patient.

 

[ORD2KOA]

I am livid right now, with the sellers, Fidelity, and Disney.

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Sorry to hear about this, Normangirls. I guess you have to decide if this is a deal breaker for you. I suppose it comes down to whether you chose this listing because of the current year points and how great a bargain you're getting.

I hope it all works out for you.

 

[Dean]

Sorry, Dean. I disagree with you on this one. In February, we put in an offer (which the seller accepted) with Fidelity on an attractively priced contract.

We found out later that the listing was incorrect and listed the incorrect amount of banked points. Nothing was even pointed out to us or mentioned to us when the contract was emailed to us.

Upon receiving the contract, I double-checked the point allocation, etc., set forth in the contract and the amount of banked points was decreased by more than half. I called the broker and she had no idea that anything was wrong as compared to the listing. While we were on the phone, she pulled out the seller's statement and we did the math together to figure out which points were missing.

It is entirely possible that Fidelity simply didn't check the statement when they did the listing--but whoever drafted the contract did check the statement.

Meaning--I could be in the OP's position right now had the assistant drafting the contract failed to correctly list the banked point amount (or simply went off the listing itself). I exchanged PMs with another DIS'er who was in the same situation with a Fidelity listing.

To the OP--I thought the ladies at Fidelity were sweet (and sincerely nice people), but w/the influx of the rush to meet the deadline it seemed like they were too busy or too swamped to double check everything. I would not rely on their information regarding whether the contract (if resubmitted) would qualify for the pre 3/20 rules. I would get a written confirmation from Disney in this regard. Hope it works out for you.

Your choice of course. In this case it appeared the contract was listed correctly and the owner later used points or the contract wasn't as reported initially. All Fidelity can do is list the info their given. They can't be held responsible for usage they had no control or knowledge of and the "captain of the ship" issue would not apply. That they may or may not have made a mistake in another case is irrelevant unless you believe that they are lying about the reasons for the current differences.

Apparently they do not check the point status anywhere else along the way.

Nor should they until it goes into the closing process.

I'd renegotiate and resubmit getting a MUCH better deal of around $10 pp less and no dues for this calendar year.

 

[sweetdana]

I'd prolly keep it as is, as long as the ammended contract still follows the before 03-20 deadline. No one knows what's coming with "new vrs old points". Seeing that there may be tieres benifits and maybe only new ones count for later perks, I would rather pay the extra 1 time 100 points and walk away mad until my 1st trip there. For maybe 1,000$ you garentee all benefits ect.

If it wouldn't qualify under before 03-20 rules with an ammendment.. I would 100% get aske for a huge amount off.. (unless it is BC due to it will prolly get ROFR). I would find another contract if possible if they were not willing to take it.

I agree with pp .. 100% the seller was in the wrong and knew it, I think they knew what they were doing. Disney didn't do anything and them doing this after a print out I really don't think Fidelity could have/should have known either.. The seller really tryed perhaps sucessfully to pull a fast one. POOP on them.

 

[Dean]

I'd prolly keep it as is, as long as the ammended contract still follows the before 03-20 deadline. No one knows what's coming with "new vrs old points". Seeing that there may be tieres benifits and maybe only new ones count for later perks, I would rather pay the extra 1 time 100 points and walk away mad until my 1st trip there. For maybe 1,000$ you garentee all benefits ect.

If it wouldn't qualify under before 03-20 rules with an ammendment.. I would 100% get aske for a huge amount off.. (unless it is BC due to it will prolly get ROFR). I would find another contract if possible if they were not willing to take it.

I agree with pp .. 100% the seller was in the wrong and knew it, I think they knew what they were doing. Disney didn't do anything and them doing this after a print out I really don't think Fidelity could have/should have known either.. The seller really tryed perhaps sucessfully to pull a fast one. POOP on them.

So basically you're saying that the retail option is worth around $1500-2000, which is roughly the cost difference in this situation when you compare the points lost and the lower value of the contract.

 

[Normangirls]

I have talked to Rachel again, and have decided to pursue this contract a little bit further. I'll share details after the seller answers, but we decided to be aggressive (B-E-A-G-G-R-E-S-S-I-V-E, be aggressive, be-e aggressive! Anyone remember that football cheer?). Like many of you pointed out, we kind of have the sellers over a barrel (of their own making).

If they refuse our offer, we'll walk away.

Some of the points you all have made that stick with me:

1. Yes, we had a really good deal on this contract to start with, and even with the reduced points it is still one of the best deals I've seen. Is it enough to make us want to go ahead with this particular seller?

2. While we don't plan to use our points anywhere except Disney, the 3/20 changes concern me for the reason stated by Buckeye Fan -- will Disney continue to distinguish between "befores" and "afters" and make more changes that affect the after-3/20 resales? I know, I know, "what if's" drive me crazy!

3. If we go forward with a change to the agreement, I will ask for assurance in writing from DVC that we maintain our pre-3/20 status (good idea, lilpooh108!).

4. As palaemon said, 3/20 is what makes the timing of the situation problematic -- otherwise, we'd just be deciding the issue based on dollars and cents.

5. If I were Fidelity (Hi, Rachel!) I'd have a policy to order a point report before submitting for ROFR. It's more work, but since it seem this has happened before, it would certainly offer buyers another level of confidence. I am not blaming Fidelity, in that I do not think they knew the seller had done this, but they have access to this information (I, as the buyer, do not) and even if there is a cost involved in getting a report it should be part of their due diligence.

Here's another thing I'm worrying over: this is actually a contract for my parents. We are helping them pay for it as part of their 50th wedding anniversary, but they are paying for most of it. Eventually, they want to have it to leave to my brother and me (and our sister, but she's disabled so DB and I will be caring for her), but their dream is to go to VWL a couple of times a year for as long as they can. So if it were just me, I might make different decisions, but it's my parents' money (and dream) we're talking about here. That makes me both more cautious and more diligent.

So, THANK YOU to everyone here. I'll keep you all updated, but the suggestions and comments have been crazy helpful!

 

[ORD2KOA]

It sounds like you're on the right track. I'm sure you keep saying to yourself "who needs the drama," but that darned 3/20 date threw a huge monkey wrench into your plans.

We nearly had a similar problem, but luckily TSS found out about it before the contract was drawn up and I found another similar listing that was sent to ROFR on 3/17.

Good luck!! I know you'll keep us posted.