Re-framing the Conversation

[catra121]

I vote for attention to details.....which seems to be lost.

DH is a CASTMEMBER and we realize how tough it is each year to simply maintain standards with less $$$$. Budgets are cut each year. For those who cannot help it and want to maintain Disney standards, it has to break their hears they cannot. We have watched the quality slide.

Here is an example.


I remember the first night of our annual early December pilgrimage the year we lost Lights of Winter. We were strolling the Poly beaches after a satisfying meal at Kona Cafe. We looked over to the Grand Floridian, yes the supposed grand dame of Disney hotels. You know the strings of lights outlining the rooftops? If 1 in 10 of the bulbs were working I would be surprised. We looked across the lagoon from our Beach Club room that night to the giant lit B ardwalk sign---never fixed in our 10 nights there. Lightbulbs all over WDW were out.

Sure, a little thing. But after that you can't help but notice things..... Flower beads with dead flowers, outside stairways with debris in the corner built up over a long time, debris floating in corners of water features....old cups, leaves, food wrappers.

We were sad beyond words that Lights of Winter would no longer dance for our enjoyment but the neglect was what continues to worry us.

You can choose to ingor it and we do our best. But that changes nothing.

If Disney wanted to make the fastest impact they would invest $$$$ to bring the entire place back to sparkling perfection. Only step one but trust me, people would notice.


I would have to stop saying

Give 'em less.........Charge 'em more.

Which people would notice?

I am still in complete awe every time I go to WDW at how clean the place is, how amazing the theming is, how beautiful the parks are. You don't see anything else that maintains that kind of standard and when you consider how many people go through the parks each and every day...it's absolutely insane that they keep it so pristine. A year and a half ago I went on a trip with my parents where we spent two days at Universal in the middle of our Disney trip...it was a noticeable difference for me in how clean the place was and general upkeep.

But...I don't notice things like a few lights out or a couple of dead flowers amongst hundreds. There's nothing wrong with people who do...just saying I am not one of them. One piece of garbage on the ground doesn't bother me...when I see it I pick it up and throw it out.

I think for people who don't visit other theme parks or amusement parks or other places where there are very LARGE crowds...maybe there's a noticeable difference in the standards at Disney compared to what they used to be...but I don't see it at all. All I see are beautiful, clean theme parks with amazing theming.

 

[ArwenMarie]

From my perspective, FP+ is the ONLY onsite guest perk, though. Nothing else is fabulous for me in terms of perks. I avoid EMH, we haven't yet had plain tickets so we always have parking paid for, we don't send packages back to the resort...

And WHY should AP holders, especially FL ones, have access? The ones paying the least per-visit should get more? We've only had APs for our visits because we schedule them in clumps, and even I don't believe that. When I found out how little my cousins paid for their FL passes I just about passed out.



But...I didn't ever want only 6 hours in the parks. I want the whole day there. I want to go go go and have tons of fun. But that's not going to happen now. 3 rides and then standby lines? That's going to wear out even my son's feet and we'll all get cranky and we'll go back to the resort. And we'll go to Sweet Tomatoes for dinner, we'll shop at GiftLand instead of DTD for any souvenirs, and for a casual, relaxed time we'll go over to Universal for a butterbeer later on (b/c we have APs there that I believe we'll always keep). Making it a 6 hour day takes my family away from spending money at their parks and giftshops. It reminds me that there's an outside world (I'm not one that wants or needs the "bubble" of WDW), and gives us a nice opportunity to experience it.

If I want 6 hours in a park I'll go to the amusement park/waterpark 20 minutes up the road from me (open in summer). When I go to Disney, I want to be there all day.

I think this is going to be their error. People will start splitting their time more and more with Universal.

Their resorts just aren't that compelling to be destinations of their own, no matter how much they try to push them, and you don't get anything special to justify the exorbitant prices. I do wonder if one of their other "reframes" they have up their sleeve is to give bonus FPs for onsite.

 

[catra121]

Is this comparing apples to Oranges? But I keep thinking about JcPenny. They had customers who were happy with the stores and the way they handled business.

Bring in a new manager. Discontinue old brands and discounts. Bring in new products to bring in a younger hipper customer and look what happens. They failed to attract new customers and lost their old ones.

Now I think Disney is on sturdier ground but Hey wierder things have happened.

I think that with Disney people expect more when you are charging them higher prices. With those higher prices comes higher expectations.

I don't agree with your assessment of where JCP was before the new guy came in...it's a HUGE difference from where Disney is at. My boyfriend was a store manager there and left several years before the change over because he saw the direction the company was headed...down down down. They were backwards and old school in their thinking, they missed/threw away many great opportunities to build their business, did not invest in the technology to keep up with the competition, and they refused to take good business advice. JCP was a company that refused to change with the times.

They were already in trouble when the new guy at the top came on board. The problem was that he took things to the extreme. They weren't gaining new customers (which Disney is...every single year) and the changes they made alienated existing customers...leaving them with no customers (not really...but not enough in many stores to keep the profitable).

By investing in the technology and making forward looking business decisions...Disney is doing the complete opposite of JCP. They are avoiding making the mistakes that a company like JCP made in thinking that just because they were on the way up and successful that they didn't need to change. Motorola made the same mistakes too...they were so far ahead of everyone else that they sat back on their laurels...and then everyone passed them by. There are SO many examples of this. It's very smart of Disney to look to the future and continue to make improvements and invest in the future.

 

[ArwenMarie]

That's fine up to a point. However the moderates and budget resorts really don't have much to do in the afternoons unless you like to swim. Plus one can only shop and eat so much.

I could however see the PTB thinking that people staying in the parks for only six hours would help with crowds. I think that it's a bit clueless to really think that people won't go offsite though.

Well, they have those really loud pool games constantly going on.

I don't think the deluxes are much more interesting than the mods or values (with the exception of AKL). The best part of most of them is the easier access....to the parks.

 

[mom2rtk]

I agree that they go down this road at their own peril. Capturing people onsite with Magical Express and getting them to pass on renting a car was genius for maximizing profit!

But if people get frustrated with the limits in the parks and go looking for something else to do, that entire house of cards could come tumbling down. Once they decide to get a car and step off Disney property, Disney stands to lose a lot more than the cost of a few mickey bars.

 

[flicx]

Motorola made the same mistakes too...they were so far ahead of everyone else that they sat back on their laurels...and then everyone passed them by. There are SO many examples of this. It's very smart of Disney to look to the future and continue to make improvements and invest in the future.

Seems Disney is setting on their laurels too, park wise. This has been one of the slowest decades as far as new rides goes in quite a while. With avatarland a full 3 years away they have dug themselves into a little rut. The fast plus technology may not have been that wise of an investment, especially when you compare it to the amount of work that could been done in the parks with the outlay. I'm not sure this isn't happening right now as universal is in the build mode and Disney is in the squeeze every last red cent out mode. I really think they are banking on the 7 dwarves mine ride for customers right now. I hope that gamble pays off, because in a few years when universal has all their new things open and Disney has little new, their bottom line may feel the pinch.

 

[catra121]

I agree that they go down this road at their own peril. Capturing people onsite with Magical Express and getting them to pass on renting a car was genius for maximizing profit!

But if people get frustrated with the limits in the parks and go looking for something else to do, that entire house of cards could come tumbling down. Once they decide to get a car and step off Disney property, Disney stands to lose a lot more than the cost of a few mickey bars.

But you are talking about their veteran customers here...the repeat visitors. If MOST guests used 3 FP or less before then those customers are used to stand by lines...which so far have not changed much at all. First timers know no different...and stand by lines are pretty much the standard in most theme parks/amusement parks unless you want to pay for whatever their version of FP is. Disney will offer them THREE FP+ rides for FREE. They don't see it as a reason to run away or not go...they will see that as AWESOME.

They may lose your money and the money of others who feel the same...and I think they know that. But what do they stand to gain? A whole new customer base who loves the new technology, the new way of touring the parks, and what they have to offer. Even as a veteran who has been many many times...I love the direction they are headed.

Only time will tell how all of this actually shakes out...but I think Disney will come out on top when it's all done.

 

[mom2rtk]

But you are talking about their veteran customers here...the repeat visitors. If MOST guests used 3 FP or less before then those customers are used to stand by lines...which so far have not changed much at all. First timers know no different...and stand by lines are pretty much the standard in most theme parks/amusement parks unless you want to pay for whatever their version of FP is. Disney will offer them THREE FP+ rides for FREE. They don't see it as a reason to run away or not go...they will see that as AWESOME.

They may lose your money and the money of others who feel the same...and I think they know that. But what do they stand to gain? A whole new customer base who loves the new technology, the new way of touring the parks, and what they have to offer. Even as a veteran who has been many many times...I love the direction they are headed.

Only time will tell how all of this actually shakes out...but I think Disney will come out on top when it's all done.

I agree that only time will tell. But any business that ignores their loyal fan base in pursuit of a new golden goose takes a risk.

 

[redrosesix]

THIS. This would make me so excited for another trip. Just the possibility of some surprise pixie dust would change my whole attitude from anxiety to excitement. How soon can you start??

Agreed. We were having a pretty crappy day with check in until a CM offered us a free lunch -- it went from bad to GREAT in a matter of seconds.

The only way this would work though, is to use the MBs to ensure that every family got a little bit of magic. We were there for YOAMD and we obviously weren't one of the "million". But I agree that most disillusioned visitors need more than marketing hype -- it would need to be an ongoing project, a way the system works all the time, every year. They have to change alot of perceptions, even those of previous fans, since they're the only ones who can convince people who would "never go to disney"

 

[crostorfer]

Surprise treats are nice but the problem is that a lot of people will be skipped and might feel left out. I never even saw someone get a treat and while I don't expect anything extra you will always run into people that do.

Look at the number of people who complain that they don't get towel animals from Mousekeeping. Some people go so far as to say that one, insignificant seeming little factor puts a huge damper on their trip. If one person gets something, even that little, everyone is disappointed if they don't get them as well.

 

[catra121]

Seems Disney is setting on their laurels too, park wise. This has been one of the slowest decades as far as new rides goes in quite a while. With avatarland a full 3 years away they have dug themselves into a little rut. The fast plus technology may not have been that wise of an investment, especially when you compare it to the amount of work that could been done in the parks with the outlay. I'm not sure this isn't happening right now as universal is in the build mode and Disney is in the squeeze every last red cent out mode. I really think they are banking on the 7 dwarves mine ride for customers right now. I hope that gamble pays off, because in a few years when universal has all their new things open and Disney has little new, their bottom line may feel the pinch.

I guess that's just a matter of perception and whether you are talking strictly about RIDES or including park experiences.

I went in October 2012 (last trip before that was September 2010), April 2013, September 2013, and will be there again in September 2014. During each of those trips I got to experience new things (some just new to me and some new to WDW) including the opening of New Fantasyland (new ride, 2 new M&G experiences, and a new restaurant), newly themed TT, updated Star Tours, introduction of Starbucks in the parks (meant nothing to me but my cousin...first timer...LOVED this), food kiosks at Flower and Garden Festival (an event that was also new to me), interactive queue at Haunted Mansion, Tangled bathroom areas, projection show on the castle, the Jack Sparrow thing at DHS, and when we go this September we will get to see the Mine Train and the new parade at MK. They are introducing new fireworks to Star Wars Weekend (which I won't get to experience but it's also a new thing) and last year had that Villains night at DHS. They have special event nights throughout the year. Sitting on their laurels? I don't think so. You may see it differently.

There are SO MANY things to do that (as people say over and over and over again on these boards) you can't do it all in one trip. Who else has that? They continue to add new things and every single trip I am able to experience new things. Universal feels tired to me and they are no where near approaching the amount of what Disney has to offer its customers. Now...whether you like or appreciate all that Disney has to offer...that I can't speak to. But just because these things don't mean anything to you or aren't what YOU want them to put in the parks...doesn't equate to them sitting on their laurels in my opinion.

 

[catra121]

I agree that only time will tell. But any business that ignores their loyal fan base in pursuit of a new golden goose takes a risk.

True...but it's a calculated risk.

Any business that refuses to change with the times and attract NEW customers (those loyal fans won't be around forever) is also taking a risk.

Some say they should attract new customers with new ride, new parks, etc (and I would LOVE a new park)...but what's the return on investment for those things? The investment in technology gives them an opportunity to attract new customers, improve customer experience, and also save money in the future. New rides will attract new customers but in addition to being expensive to build they also require an investment in staffing and then future maintenance and upkeep.

 

[redrosesix]

I don't agree with your assessment of where JCP was before the new guy came in...it's a HUGE difference from where Disney is at. My boyfriend was a store manager there and left several years before the change over because he saw the direction the company was headed...down down down. They were backwards and old school in their thinking, they missed/threw away many great opportunities to build their business, did not invest in the technology to keep up with the competition, and they refused to take good business advice. JCP was a company that refused to change with the times.

They were already in trouble when the new guy at the top came on board. The problem was that he took things to the extreme. They weren't gaining new customers (which Disney is...every single year) and the changes they made alienated existing customers...leaving them with no customers (not really...but not enough in many stores to keep the profitable).

By investing in the technology and making forward looking business decisions...Disney is doing the complete opposite of JCP. They are avoiding making the mistakes that a company like JCP made in thinking that just because they were on the way up and successful that they didn't need to change. Motorola made the same mistakes too...they were so far ahead of everyone else that they sat back on their laurels...and then everyone passed them by. There are SO many examples of this. It's very smart of Disney to look to the future and continue to make improvements and invest in the future.

Ironically, I think Disney is doing the opposite. MM+ is so far over budget that they are putting off or cancelling all imagineering projects for the time being. And I think that's where they really needed to be making forward looking business decisions. Disney Parks is the company -- they're forgetting the "Parks" part.

I also think they could have figured out that making all merchandise in all parks the same would eventually catch up with them. We have most of what they're offering and aren't planning to buy any more until the product lines change. eg everyone doesn't want to buy a hoodie, a hat, a t shirt AND a backpack with the year written on it. But I nearly bought a sweater in Norway this year -- just we didn't have time for WS because of the waits in SB. Even if they could just add a hoodie without a zipper -- I eventually bought one in Universal after a week of looking for one in WDW.

Nope -- I don't think they're forward looking at all.

 

[flicx]

I guess that's just a matter of perception and whether you are talking strictly about RIDES or including park experiences.

I went in October 2012 (last trip before that was September 2010), April 2013, September 2013, and will be there again in September 2014. During each of those trips I got to experience new things (some just new to me and some new to WDW) including the opening of New Fantasyland (new ride, 2 new M&G experiences, and a new restaurant), newly themed TT, updated Star Tours, introduction of Starbucks in the parks (meant nothing to me but my cousin...first timer...LOVED this), food kiosks at Flower and Garden Festival (an event that was also new to me), interactive queue at Haunted Mansion, Tangled bathroom areas, projection show on the castle, the Jack Sparrow thing at DHS, and when we go this September we will get to see the Mine Train and the new parade at MK. They are introducing new fireworks to Star Wars Weekend (which I won't get to experience but it's also a new thing) and last year had that Villains night at DHS. They have special event nights throughout the year. Sitting on their laurels? I don't think so. You may see it differently.

There are SO MANY things to do that (as people say over and over and over again on these boards) you can't do it all in one trip. Who else has that? They continue to add new things and every single trip I am able to experience new things. Universal feels tired to me and they are no where near approaching the amount of what Disney has to offer its customers. Now...whether you like or appreciate all that Disney has to offer...that I can't speak to. But just because these things don't mean anything to you or aren't what YOU want them to put in the parks...doesn't equate to them sitting on their laurels in my opinion.

I was actually referring to rides. While restaurants and meet and greets and refurbs may be good for some. There are many who don't hold these in high regards when it comes to "new things". I guess your perception of universal is different than mine too.

 

[redrosesix]

I agree that only time will tell. But any business that ignores their loyal fan base in pursuit of a new golden goose takes a risk.

ITA with this

 

[flicx]

Ironically, I think Disney is doing the opposite. MM+ is so far over budget that they are putting off or cancelling all imagineering projects for the time being. And I think that's where they really needed to be making forward looking business decisions. Disney Parks is the company -- they're forgetting the "Parks" part.

My sentiment exactly. Somehow in this mad race for money Disney has forgotten the formula that got them where they are today. Building attractions/rides/shows. More rides equal more capacity. More capacity allows for more customers. New rides attract old and new customers. The money takes care of itself at this point.

 

[catra121]

Ironically, I think Disney is doing the opposite. MM+ is so far over budget that they are putting off or cancelling all imagineering projects for the time being. And I think that's where they really needed to be making forward looking business decisions. Disney Parks is the company -- they're forgetting the "Parks" part.

I also think they could have figured out that making all merchandise in all parks the same would eventually catch up with them. We have most of what they're offering and aren't planning to buy any more until the product lines change. eg everyone doesn't want to buy a hoodie, a hat, a t shirt AND a backpack with the year written on it. But I nearly bought a sweater in Norway this year -- just we didn't have time for WS because of the waits in SB. Even if they could just add a hoodie without a zipper -- I eventually bought one in Universal after a week of looking for one in WDW.

Nope -- I don't think they're forward looking at all.

I think that people really underestimate the importance of technology and the role it plays in the success or failure of future endeavors. In years to come...Disney will be so far ahead of everyone else with what their technology will allow them to do and they will continue to advance and build upon the technology already in place to create amazing experiences. I would not want to be Disney's competition...trying to play catch up when that happens.

 

[ArwenMarie]

But you are talking about their veteran customers here...the repeat visitors. If MOST guests used 3 FP or less before then those customers are used to stand by lines...which so far have not changed much at all. First timers know no different...and stand by lines are pretty much the standard in most theme parks/amusement parks unless you want to pay for whatever their version of FP is. Disney will offer them THREE FP+ rides for FREE. They don't see it as a reason to run away or not go...they will see that as AWESOME.

They may lose your money and the money of others who feel the same...and I think they know that. But what do they stand to gain? A whole new customer base who loves the new technology, the new way of touring the parks, and what they have to offer. Even as a veteran who has been many many times...I love the direction they are headed.

Only time will tell how all of this actually shakes out...but I think Disney will come out on top when it's all done.

I agree. If you have never been to WDW before, having FPs for 3 headliners (well, two or one in DHS/Epcot) would probably seem pretty neat. And I think that is exactly the market they are going for, whether U.S. or overseas. New customers don't know how old everything is. But I think even a new customer would expect that the 3 FPs would be just a starting point for rides.

I guess the question is how much of their business is repeat customers and what is the effect of this on them. Coupled with the lack of new attractions.

 

[dfb]

I think that people really underestimate the importance of technology and the role it plays in the success or failure of future endeavors. In years to come...Disney will be so far ahead of everyone else with what their technology will allow them to do and they will continue to advance and build upon the technology already in place to create amazing experiences. I would not want to be Disney's competition...trying to play catch up when that happens.

I agree. The technology of MM+ has such great potential to really enhance the guest visit. Unfortunately for many it's introduction has been too restrictive and too faulty, therefore many peolpe feel it's only another money making tactic with no guest benefit.

I feel Disney has done a poor job in presenting this technology. I hope they evolve with the necessary changes to make it a real enhancement to visitors.

 

[leebee]

I think that people really underestimate the importance of technology and the role it plays in the success or failure of future endeavors. In years to come...Disney will be so far ahead of everyone else with what their technology will allow them to do and they will continue to advance and build upon the technology already in place to create amazing experiences. I would not want to be Disney's competition...trying to play catch up when that happens.

What is it exactly that this technology will allow them to do? Nobody's been able to answer that yet. Yes, I understand that they'll know where I spend my money, how I spend my time, how frequently I pee, etc., but will they be able to track where I DON"T spend my time and money? Will this really matter? With a price tag of $1.5 Billion dollars, how are they going to use this technology in a way that'll push Disney lightyears ahead of the competition?

I wish Disney would go back to focusing on the customer's vacation experience. While NFL is nice, it's really not "all that and a bag of chips." I am curious about the 7DMT, but other than that, what's been gained for all the years invested? Dumbo and Barnstormer already existed, there's a new kiddie Little Mermaid ride, and some places to eat and shop. Oh yes, and Storybook Circus, which is another iteration of video games, like the new interactive queues at HM, Pooh, TT, and the end of SE. All over the Disney parks, buildings stand empty. Experiences have been closed, reopening on the cheap, if at all. Look at how much of FutureWorld in Epcot is EMPTY. NOTHING. Yet $1.5 billion (with more to be spent, if the way things now work is any indication) spent on MM+ and FP+? I keep hearing about the "new technology" putting Disney on the forefront for years to come. HOW? WHAT are the applications of this new technology (other than to mess up many peoples' vacations right now)?