RAW file format

[PoohJen]

Bob, that is a GREAT picture! So sharp, clear!

Janet, I can see how that multiple processing could be a very useful tool.

Question: I shoot mainly sports photos; will shooting in RAW have any noticeable difference. It sounds like it might not work well for sports if the buffer limits multiple shooting.

 

[AndrewWG]

Bob, that is a GREAT picture! So sharp, clear!

Janet, I can see how that multiple processing could be a very useful tool.

Question: I shoot mainly sports photos; will shooting in RAW have any noticeable difference. It sounds like it might not work well for sports if the buffer limits multiple shooting.

I am not sure exactly what sport shooting you do, but I do baseball games here on Cape Cod and I don't have a problem with shooting RAW with the buffer on a 30D. I usually hold the shutter down for swings, pitches, base running, etc. Sure, once in awhile the buffer fills and I have to wait a few seconds for it to empty, but that is usually between plays and unless you have your finger on the shutter continuously (more than 8-10 shots in a few seconds) then it shouldn't be a problem. Of course, I am not sure what the XT has for a buffer size.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I am not sure exactly what sport shooting you do, but I do baseball games here on Cape Cod and I don't have a problem with shooting RAW with the buffer on a 30D. I usually hold the shutter down for swings, pitches, base running, etc. Sure, once in awhile the buffer fills and I have to wait a few seconds for it to empty, but that is usually between plays and unless you have your finger on the shutter continuously (more than 8-10 shots in a few seconds) then it shouldn't be a problem. Of course, I am not sure what the XT has for a buffer size.

For sports based on "plays" (like baseball or football), it's not as big a problem. When shooting a more dynamic game like soccer or basketball, you run into more trouble. If people are working hard around the net/goal, you can easily blow threw your buffer and be left with nothing for the big shot.

I've also had problems when shooting bits where you want a lot of shots in a hurry. That could be someone doing a skating or dance routine, someone with a brief part in a play, or any other segment where you want to shoot your subject intensely for a minute or two.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

We get a lot of questions about RAW files here. Some people want to know why, others want to know how. It was suggested a while back that we should have some threads in which a RAW file is posted, people process it, and then post their results along with a description of what they did to it.

I'll start this going with this photo:

Here is a link to the original size jpg, if you want to see more detail.

The RAW file is here. I posted it as a DNG file. My apologies to anyone with RAW software that cannot process DNG. I guess that's one of the first lessons with RAW files - there really isn't a universal standard.

If you are going to post a rendition, please be clear about what you did. This isn't a "see who can fix Mark's mistakes the best contest", it's a chance to show people how RAW files can be manipulated and made into better pictures. Please specify the tool(s) you used and how you used them.

If you'd like to start your own RAW Play thread, feel free. If you don't have anyplace to post the RAW file, let me know and we'll work something out. You can e-mail it to me or I can give you a place to FTP it.

 

[Groucho]

One other big reason is that you can adjust white balance after the fact with no penalty... very nice, as pretty much any digital camera is guaranteed to to a poor job with white balance under tungsten lights. Also nice for nighttime shots, which often are a bit brownish under auto white balance.

Like Bob says, the question is more "why not" than "why" IMHO.

 

[LMarge]

Mark,
Thanks for posting the photo. I did go into the raw file and play with the sliders and such and was really impressed with how you could manipulate the background to almost black/deep blue while at the same time not losing the colors on the main character! My questions is how to use/save/load raw photos. I have the XTi and it shoots raw. I understand that I will get a LOT less pictures per card when in that mode, no problem. However, can I shot in jpeg and in raw on the same card? I know these questions sound stupid, but this is the first camera I've ever owned that has the raw feature. Also, when saving them in PSE4 do I need to do anything special to them? I read somewhere that you have to convert them to jpeg for uploading purposes? The "raw" thing totally baffles me - I need to do a LOT more homework on this subject!!!
Sorry for the rambling questions and thank you for helping out this "clueless, but with good equipment" person!!!

Mark - I did look futher down the board and ran across the "Raw-Purpose?" thread. I plan to read the article that is linked there. Thanks!

 

[DueyDooDah]

...My questions is how to use/save/load raw photos. I have the XTi and it shoots raw.

This is a function of your software. You should have received ZoomBrowser with your Camera, maybe Digital Photo Pro also. Either can load, and view but DPP is a bit nicer to work with. You can also open RAW files in PSE4. You cannot save a RAW file back out in RAW format. But, you can save them to a .DNG file, which is Adobe's "standard" form of RAW. This is used for long-term archival reasons, but is not yet widely used. You can save any RAW file to many other formats (JPG, TIFF, PSD, etc.), just not the original format. This has an advantage in that you can never overwrite your original file, therefore never lose a file you don't intentionally delete.

BTW: You may want to download Adobe Lightroom, trial version, once you get a handle on using RAW (I say this so that you know what you will be gaining by moving to LR). It makes everything so much easier. PSE4 is a bit clumsy in comparison. (I've had both)

I understand that I will get a LOT less pictures per card when in that mode, no problem. However, can I shot in jpeg and in raw on the same card?

Yes. You may even be able to save both at the same time. I'm not sure if XTi's can save in RAW+JPG format, but if it can, the camera will save two images for each snap of the shutter: one to a RAW file and the other a JPG file. It gives you the best of both worlds, but takes up more space on your card. This way you get one unprocessed file (RAW) and one fully processed (JPG). You'll find after awhile, if you do your own processing, that you have much more control over the RAW image and will be able to make adjustments you just can't do with a JPG file, which makes RAW the choice for many people.

I know these questions sound stupid, but this is the first camera I've ever owned that has the raw feature.

Not stupid at all. I think most of us have asked the exact same questions when we started RAW.

Also, when saving them in PSE4 do I need to do anything special to them? I read somewhere that you have to convert them to jpeg for uploading purposes? The "raw" thing totally baffles me - I need to do a LOT more homework on this subject!!!

Nope, PSE4 reads RAW files and when you want to save it out, just use Save As and select the JPG format. But, be forwarned, you have to download a RAW codec update from the Adobe website. Make sure you get the latest one for PSE4. The later ones will not work. They are for PSE5 or greater. Go here to get it. Make sure you follow the instructions so you put the file in the right place.

 

[DizneyNutz]

Mark,
However, can I shot in jpeg and in raw on the same card?

I have the xti also. To make this setting, press the menu button on the back/left of the camera. Under the Camera 1 settings the first item on the list is the "Quality" setting. Use your down arrow (also WB Adjustment) on the back of the camera to scroll down to the Quality setting and press the set button above the WB button. You will see different settings you may choose, but the one on the bottom left (RAW+L) will get you a Raw and Large JPEG file for each shot. Highlight that selection and press set again then menu and your are ready to start.

 

[LMarge]

Thanks everyone for all the information and answers! It has been most helpful (and overwhelming!!) I plan to sit down and print out the post then spend sometime playing around with a few shots from the camera in the raw format, nothing like experience as a teacher!
Blessings,

 

[NostalgicDad]

Well, I've given this a try and I may be totally way off base with the end result. I had a lot of problem trying to figure out what to do with this photo so I decided to just start seeing what effect different settings would have. My overall thought process was to remove the purplish contrast while maintaining the other important colors.

I opened the DNG file with CS2 but did the initial adjustment settings before CS2 actually opens the photo. The following was performed during this step.....

(Adjustments Tab)
exposure = -0.35
shadows = +6
contrast = +12

(Detail Tab)
luminance NR = 50

(Calibrate Tab)
shadow tint = -35
red hue = +15
green hue = -38
blue hue = -31
blue saturation = -66

After saving those settings I then did the following after CS2 opened it with the new settings......

quick auto levels
usm(unsharp mask) = 200%
radius = 3.0


I always make sure I perform any noise reduction BEFORE doing any type of sharpening. In this particular photo, I don't think I'm happy with the resulting NR adjustment. This was shot using ISO1600 on a very good camera but I still think I see too much graininess. Maybe it's just me though. I also cloned out the light glares on the right side just for good measure.

Overall, I believe I achieved a decent looking photo even with my limited skills using CS2. Mark, how would you compare this to what you actually saw and tried to capture?

 

[bostran1]

Here is my shot. I still don't entirely know what I'm doing with the RAW editor I'm using though (Apple's Aperture). I pretty much understand what a lot of the adjustments mean and do but I just slide them around until I arbitrarily deem the shot to look better. Also, I cannot for the life of figure out how the median points are numbered (sometimes it is 1, sometimes 0).

Looking at this one compared to some of the others, I think I oversaturated it a bit.

Here's what I did:
Increased the exposure to .26
Increased the saturation to slightly (from 1.00 to 1.15)
Decreased the brightness to -0.19 (I know it seems weird to increase the exposure and decrease the brightness)
Decreased the highlights by about 50%
Warmed up the white balance so add some yellow tint
I attempted a little noise reduction but I don't think I have any idea how to do it aperture. I notice a change in the noise levels, but it isn't much.

What does everyone think? I think I prefer the increased contrast.

 

[jann1033]

i downloaded the canon raw viewer and wga(?)file a few days ago and the raw viewer seemed to be working fine but last night i tried to send a fax ( from microsoft works) and it opened the raw viewer and the cover page was there but instead of the document , a drawing of a cruise ship and smilies came up( wmf file) ...what the heydehey? i tired it with other documents and the same thing is happening? wondering if i could have gotten some weird virus or if my raw viewer just has a really odd sense of humor( thankfully the company i was sending the bid to only got the first page ) i checked and the only things the raw viewer is "supposed" to open in the options is my photo files( the rest has mspaint to open them, which i presume was the way it was before) although i really don't know what a document would be ( i mean the file name)
anyone else ever had a rebellious raw viewer like this?
Thanks

 

[mabas9395]

Are you asking if your RAW file viewer is crazy or if the viewer of the RAW file is crazy?

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Files have extensions (the little .jpg, .mov, .avi, or whatever) part at the end of their names. Your computer associates a program with each of these extensions. When you installed your RAW viewer, it told your computer that it was the program to use for each of those file types. That's rude but common. Polite programs ask for each file type, but the problem with that approach is that most users have no idea what they are being asked.

The easiest way to "fix" the problem is to re-install the program that you want to use for opening those files. Hopefully, it will tell your computer to go back to using it.

 

[jann1033]

Are you asking if your RAW file viewer is crazy or if the viewer of the RAW file is crazy?

i already know the second part is true
i'll try it again or maybe just forget sending faxes till i get another computer

 

[MICKEY88]

i downloaded the canon raw viewer and wga(?)file a few days ago and the raw viewer seemed to be working fine but last night i tried to send a fax ( from microsoft works) and it opened the raw viewer and the cover page was there but instead of the document , a drawing of a cruise ship and smilies came up( wmf file) ...what the heydehey? i tired it with other documents and the same thing is happening? wondering if i could have gotten some weird virus or if my raw viewer just has a really odd sense of humor( thankfully the company i was sending the bid to only got the first page ) i checked and the only things the raw viewer is "supposed" to open in the options is my photo files( the rest has mspaint to open them, which i presume was the way it was before) although i really don't know what a document would be ( i mean the file name)
anyone else ever had a rebellious raw viewer like this?
Thanks

it's a sign from above that you are supposed to take a cruise..


either that or the Church Of Scientology has taken over your PC and is sending subliminals about Tom Cruise..

 

[jann1033]

now part b would be freaky for sure i would have thought it was the hub's hinting for next vaca but he hates the idea of "little boat in middle of big shark filled ocean" so that is out

 

[MICKEY88]

now part b would be freaky for sure i would have thought it was the hub's hinting for next vaca but he hates the idea of "little boat in middle of big shark filled ocean" so that is out

maybe he is buying you a one way ticket....

 

[jann1033]

maybe he is buying you a one way ticket....

tom cruise is buying me a one way ticket!?...hooray, i am jumping up and down on my couch as i speak

 

[My2Girls66]

I always shoot fine/large jpeg but sometimes I find a shot I'd like to crop a bunch but lose too much quality when I do. Just wondering if shooting RAW would allow for more cropping or do I need more mp's for that.
Thanks