Rationalization

[poohandwendy]

The individual worth being more important than the community responsbility cuts both ways. For instance we use the term "personal responsiblity" to try justify letting children go hungry or people living on the streets.

So, IMO its not that we think everyone has worth, or we would be more interested in taking care of everyone in our communties. Rather, the mentality is everyone has worth, but only if they are worth something financially, otherwise they mean nothing.

As for shades or gray.. well I beleive there are. Except for a few things, things are not black and white. There are extenuating circumstances that should be taken into account.

Now, when it comes to refillable mugs...I personally think its really petty on both sides of the issue.

Oh, I wasn't making the case that individual worth is meaningless or that everything is black and white...only that there has been a shift when it comes to rationalization or justification of actions. Especially actions that are breaking rules.

I am thinking along the lines of someone clearly seeing a rule, not wanting to follow it and then not only personally finding a way to justify breaking it, but expecting others to understand, accept and even respect it.

 

[Missy1961]

Yes, I have noticed the trend but I have not been paying attention to any seasonal connection, if there is one.

I think this all goes back to when talk shows became popular. (stay with me here, there is a point, LOL) When pop-psychology became mainstream via talk shows like Phil Donohue, Oprah and later with Jerry Springer, etc...the whole idea of 'how does it make YOU feel' became a mantra that instilled the idea that personal happiness was top priority and that any act could be explained if we delve into the human psyche deep enough. Out went the black and white right/wrong. In came the shades of gray justification mentality.

We have gradually shifted our values away from community needs and onto individual needs. So, if you can find a way to justify your actions on an individual level, you now expect and demand the community to understand, accept and even respect your actions.

It's basically using egotistical reasoning to justify our actions based on the idea that those actions are not large enough to affect the community as a whole. And even if our actions do affect the community, they are justified because each of us, as individuals, have worth! In effect, we have allowed individual worth to become more important than personal and community responsibility, IMO.

A good example is the idea that large corporations can 'afford' to take a loss ...but when it comes to the individual...well, their money is 'hard earned'.

Did that make any sense, LOL?

I think you've hit the nail on the head! Great post.

 

[cardaway]

We have gradually shifted our values away from community needs and onto individual needs.

Given the way this country has been run the last few years you would be a fool to do anything else. Of course that feeling is going to extend to every part of our lives. IMO that is what people are seeing.

 

[poohandwendy]

Given the way this country has been run the last few years you would be a fool to do anything else. Of course that feeling is going to extend to every part of our lives. IMO that is what people are seeing.

LOL, if this shift was only that recent, I may agree. Unfortunately, it has been moving this way for much longer than the current administration could be held responsible for.

 

[imsorry]

OMG - another thread about refillable mugs!!!

Maybe Disney could make them self-destruct like the tapes on Mission Impossible and rid the world of the dreaded mug re-users!!! Or, we could
just throw them in jail and throw away the key - it is, afterall, the worst thing in the world anyone could possibly do

 

[ckay87]

You mean like passing off a Beatles song as a current Billboard hit ?

Sorry, couldn't resist. I agree with you, though, overall. I don't see it as rampant, but I've been pretty much staying on the CB. I'm sure it's all over the trip planning-type threads.

 

[poohandwendy]

just throw them in jail and throw away the key - it is, afterall, the worst thing in the world anyone could possibly do

Just for the sake of argument...you are right, definitely not going to make or break Disney and definitely not as bad as a zillion other things anyone could do. (FTR, I generally steer clear of refillable mug/5 in a room type threads)

However, I always wonder why people ask others what they think of doing something that is against the rules? Really, you (general you) are going to do whatever you want. No one is ever going to know. Why the need for others input? Why not just ask the people in charge when you get there if you are unsure of what you are allowed to do?

Why is it that people want rules to only apply to other people? Why the need to justify going against the rules, even the small ones?

I think that is what is so interesting.

It reminds me of something I heard once. A man gets caught cheating on his wife and reminds her that he never beat her or killed anyone. Oh, ok...since there are worse things you could be doing, that excuses all wrongs?

 

[SillyMe]

Just for the sake of argument...you are right, definitely not going to make or break Disney and definitely not as bad as a zillion other things anyone could do. (FTR, I generally steer clear of refillable mug/5 in a room type threads)

However, I always wonder why people ask others what they think of doing something that is against the rules? Really, you (general you) are going to do whatever you want. No one is ever going to know. Why the need for others input? Why not just ask the people in charge when you get there if you are unsure of what you are allowed to do?

Why is it that people want rules to only apply to other people? Why the need to justify going against the rules, even the small ones?

I think that is what is so interesting.

It reminds me of something I heard once. A man gets caught cheating on his wife and reminds her that he never beat her or killed anyone. Oh, ok...since there are worse things you could be doing, that excuses all wrongs?

They ask because they know what they are doing is wrong, but want to do it anyway. They are looking for someone to say "Go ahead and do it" so they don't feel guilty for doing it.

 

[poohandwendy]

They ask because they know what they are doing is wrong, but want to do it anyway. They are looking for someone to say "Go ahead and do it" so they don't feel guilty for doing it.

LOL, I am sure you are right. It seems sort of silly that another person's approval helps ease whatever feelings of guilt you would have.

I wonder if anyone has ever been questioned on using a refillable mug at the 'wrong' resort and responded with "Hey, I was told it was ok by people on an internet message board"...

 

[bicker]

the whole idea of 'how does it make YOU feel' became a mantra that instilled the idea that personal happiness was top priority and that any act could be explained if we delve into the human psyche deep enough. Out went the black and white right/wrong. In came the shades of gray justification mentality.

Interesting. That's probably a contributor.

However, it made me think of another possible contributor: In the last century we have come to understand that we're not the only people of conscience in the world. We have come to the realization that reasonable people can disagree even about basic values and ethics. We've come to understand that living in peace in a world of diversity means conforming to a small set of minimal shared values and ethics, and then allowing each person to be judged for the rest based on how well they comply with the values and ethics they themselves subscribe to. That was a great leap forward for humanity.

However, I believe some people have perverted that into seeing themselves as a society of one, with as much right to define their own set of values and ethics as religious minorities with thousands of subscribers. In that world they've created for themselves, their own personal benefit outweighs all other considerations. Some folks have already hit on the major problem with this "logic" -- that these self-centered value systems are extensibly inconsistent -- they are inherently invasive against others gaining the same benefits. Only a limited number of people can live like that before the fabric of society would break down.

So that raises the troubling question: What is the impact on society when finally a majority of people behave in an anti-social manner?

 

[JESW]

What bothers me is when you want to follow what is right and others say - that you are a member of the moral police - a snob - think you are better than anyone else, etc. I LIKE the fact that the YC/BC asks for id before you can get into the pool area and I think other resorts should also. I don't think I am a snob when I stay at a deluxe resort and want to be able to swim in the pool without having guests from other resorts there to make it more crowded. If you want something then pay for it! Not the worst thing in the world of course, but just one thing.

I have also noticed a lot of folks trying to get away with things that they know are wrong - mugs, pools, kids ages, getting ap rates at rooms w/out actually having an ap, etc. More entitlement issues....

Jill

 

[poohandwendy]

Interesting. That's probably a contributor.

However, it made me think of another possible contributor: In the last century we have come to understand that we're not the only people of conscience in the world. We have come to the realization that reasonable people can disagree even about basic values and ethics. We've come to understand that living in peace in a world of diversity means conforming to a small set of minimal shared values and ethics, and then allowing each person to be judged for the rest based on how well they comply with the values and ethics they themselves subscribe to. That was a great leap forward for humanity.

However, I believe some people have perverted that into seeing themselves as a society of one, with as much right to define their own set of values and ethics as religious minorities with thousands of subscribers. In that world they've created for themselves, their own personal benefit outweighs all other considerations. Some folks have already hit on the major problem with this "logic" -- that these self-centered value systems are extensibly inconsistent -- they are inherently invasive against others gaining the same benefits. Only a limited number of people can live like that before the fabric of society would break down.

So that raises the troubling question: What is the impact on society when finally a majority of people behave in an anti-social manner?

Yes, it is a troubling question. Historically, it has led to chaos/disorder, to put it simply. Societies exist most peacefully when there is a clear set of rules and consistent punishments for breaking them. I do think we are in the process of a breakdown of society. I also think this process is the natural order of change. Evolving.

 

[grimley1968]

I guess I haven't been on the DIS long enough to notice whether there is a seasonal connection to some of the rationalization threads ("I know it's wrong, but DISers' approval makes it ok" threads). I only joined last April or sometime like that.

However, I have noticed that these types of threads seem to wax and wane over periods of time. Maybe it's the lunar cycle? Maybe it's inconsistency in moderator action? Please don't be offended mods; I'm just trying to think of reasons.

I've also noticed a similar periodic pattern as far as general nastiness in some threads/posts. Many times the nastiness is on the same threads as the rationalization of wrong behavior. For an example of nastiness, a DISer just a few days ago said he actually hated people like me, and all because I happened to disagree on resort taste. That one threw me for a loop. To actually state on a public board that you hate someone because they disagree with you is quite unbelievable to me, and I must say it's pretty disturbing. Personally, I take the word "hate" very seriously, and try to only apply such emotion to the very worst among us in society, not to people who merely disagree with me about something inside WDW.

It seems like maybe this most recent spike in nastiness may be ebbing a little. No one has said they've "hated" me for a few days (at least not to my face or in print), so at least from my perspective it's cooling off.

But I have noticed a slight uptick in the rationalization threads in the last few days. Maybe the rationalization threads tend to peak at different intervals than the general nastiness threads? It would be neat if there was some way to quantify all this, but about impossible, given different personal definitions of what is truly nasty or rationalization.

But I have to admit that both the rationalization threads and the nasty threads make for far more interesting reading than a bunch of Crocs threads.

 

[cardaway]

LOL, if this shift was only that recent, I may agree. Unfortunately, it has been moving this way for much longer than the current administration could be held responsible for.

Moving that way, yes. At the current rate, no.

If the individual element wasn't bad enough, the current administration took it to another level when they all but flipped the rest of the world the bird and did whatever they wanted because they could.

So yes, I agree there is a problem, but many of those doing it feel they are right, and they are being told they are right by people in some pretty high places.

 

[poohandwendy]

Moving that way, yes. At the current rate, no.

If the individual element wasn't bad enough, the current administration took it to another level when they all but flipped the rest of the world the bird and did whatever they wanted because they could.

So yes, I agree there is a problem, but many of those doing it feel they are right, and they are being told they are right by people in some pretty high places.

LOL, and the last administration was a great moral example of people in high places doing the right thing.

IMHO, for the most part, the leaders are a reflection of the people.

 

[cardaway]

LOL, and the last administration was a great moral example of people in high places doing the right thing.

IMHO, for the most part, the leaders are a reflection of the people.

Laugh it up.

Anyway, sadly I agree with the last part.

Just trying to explain why I think people are seeing what they seeing. A typical case of the big picture exhibiting itself in many different ways.

 

[bicker]

leaders are a reflection of the people

I don't agree. I believe leaders are a reflection of the society -- and that's different. Our society specifically abuses potential and actual leaders so grieviously that the only people who would be willing to subject themselves to the proceess are people who are power-mad or otherwise mentally distinguished from the general population.

 

[Charade]

Yesterday while I was driving on the highway (in the passing lane) and just passing the "Keep right except to pass, it's the law" sign, I said to myself, heck, when they repave the right lane, I'll move over. Otherwise, it "feels" better to stay in the passing lane.

You mean that kind of thinking??

 

[poohandwendy]

Laugh it up.

Anyway, sadly I agree with the last part.

Just trying to explain why I think people are seeing what they seeing. A typical case of the big picture exhibiting itself in many different ways.

I do understand what you are saying. Not trying to make light of it....I really don't want to turn this into a political argument. My apologies for my part in taking it there.

As I mentioned previously, this pattern has been in the process for quite some time and there are many examples of it. Has it become worse? Yeah, I think so. I think it starts at home.

 

[poohandwendy]

I don't agree. I believe leaders are a reflection of the society -- and that's different. Our society specifically abuses potential and actual leaders so grieviously that the only people who would be willing to subject themselves to the proceess are people who are power-mad or otherwise mentally distinguished from the general population.

That is a good point.

It is, indeed, interesting to note that society badgers potential leaders to degrees they would never want to be subjected to. Especially over issues that are irrelevant to the position.