"RapidFill" RFID refillable mugs coming back resort wide...

[doconeill]

Well, the same is true for annual passes in general right? If I use my Annual Pass 25 times a year, I get more "value" than the person who uses their Annual Pass just 15 times a year.

I figure they would price an Annual Pass refillable mug at a high enough price where it would make someone who knew they were only coming once or twice decide not to get it. Then Disney would have to decide if there would be demand for such a product.

I think it would be worth offering...I would get one right away!

Eric

But costs to Disney are a bit different. The "cost" of you going to the park another day is minimal (it's sort of a virtual cost), but another day's worth of soda can add up (direct capital cost). Especially, for whatever reason, you can't use the old mug and another needs to be provided (I still think health codes are a factor, but I don't know why you can use one up to 14 days, as the risks of cross-contamination exist at day 1...)

 

[tjkraz]

Well, the same is true for annual passes in general right? If I use my Annual Pass 25 times a year, I get more "value" than the person who uses their Annual Pass just 15 times a year.

The economics of it would seem to be different, though.

A theme park has certain minimum staffing levels which must be maintained regardless of crowd levels. If those staffing levels aren't significantly impacted by the Passholder population, then it costs Disney little to accommodate the heavy AP users.

Additionally, there is a presumption that Passholders will end up spending additional dollars during their visits: food, drink, trading pins, vinylmation, etc.

With the refillable mug, there's a very real cost associated with the product delivered at each refill. And I don't see the mug spurning additional sales.

 

[DizCaptain]

So people are upset that they won't be able to break the rules anymore? TS. If you don't like it, don't buy the mug. I'm glad they're doing this. We buy new mugs every time we go (or get new ones with the meal plan) and it bugs me when I see people filling 12 year old Wilderness Lodge mugs and milk cartons with beverages that they should be paying for.

You can justify it however you want, but if you didn't pay for the mug on your current visit and you're using an old one (or something else) to fill for free, YOU ARE STEALING.

Whatever Disney pays (or doesn't pay) for the syrup is beside the point. If you don't pay, you are stealing. Sorry, but that's it. Plain and simple.

To be clear, those 12 year old Wilderness Lodge mugs you see have "lifetime refills" chiseled into them. Those people, me included, have lifetime refills at those resorts. No ifs, ands, or buts, the mug is a contract, and if they're being used, it's not stealing.

On the topic of APs and mugs or DVC and mugs, I'm with ya on wanting some kind of plan to make several trips utilize one mug, even if paying the fee over again.

 

[Spacedog1975]

I would like to echo the sentiment that the time has come for a new design. I don't mind having to get new mugs every time I come, but it would be nice if they were themed for each year. The number of identical mugs I have sitting around is a bit sad.

 

[dgramling]

I would like to echo the sentiment that the time has come for a new design. I don't mind having to get new mugs every time I come, but it would be nice if they were themed for each year. The number of identical mugs I have sitting around is a bit sad.

If I had to guess this will make any new designs less often. In the past they changed designs to stop people from bringing old mugs now with the chip, old mugs won't work so there will be less need to change. But it also doesn't mean Disney has to stick with the same design either because the chip can be in any mug and the fountain can do the policing then they could have "limited" mugs or resort specfic.

 

[doconeill]

If I had to guess this will make any new designs less often. In the past they changed designs to stop people from bringing old mugs now with the chip, old mugs won't work so there will be less need to change. But it also doesn't mean Disney has to stick with the same design either because the chip can be in any mug and the fountain can do the policing then they could have "limited" mugs or resort specfic.

They haven't been changing the designs frequently as it is...I don't think it had much to do with stopping people from bringing them, especially since it didn't...

The mugs are actually two pieces - a shell and a liner (plus handle and lid), and act something like a flask (helping to keep the drink hot/cold). The design is only on the shell. The chip can be in the lid, or liner, or handle...parts that don't change just with the design...

 

[rantnnravin]

The way I look at, my souvenir costs just went down!!!! Since

1) we usually only use the mugs for coffee and maybe the occasional iced tea (we don't even drink soda at home)
and
2) there are coffee makers in the rooms
3) We are RARELY at the resort to eat at quick service/fill it
4) I usually buy the mug primarily for use at home (then the picture wears office with frequent use and i get a new one on my next visit)
5) They are a pain in the neck to fill on the way to a park then cart around all day

Therefore, I can buy the mug for the ONE DAY option, thereby reducing my souvenir cost by $7!!!

Thanks Disney!

In all seriousness, for a resort that claims to be green/eco-friendly, I would have hoped that they might offer a Reduce/Reuse/Recycle option (ie. RFID re-activation only)

I honestly believe that WDC thinks these ideas up halfway, then floats them to us to hash out solutions for all the scenarios they never even considered. I swear they should offer the DIS a residual for R&D input.

 

[DCTooTall]

They haven't been changing the designs frequently as it is...I don't think it had much to do with stopping people from bringing them, especially since it didn't...

The mugs are actually two pieces - a shell and a liner (plus handle and lid), and act something like a flask (helping to keep the drink hot/cold). The design is only on the shell. The chip can be in the lid, or liner, or handle...parts that don't change just with the design...

The way I look at, my souvenir costs just went down!!!! Since

1) we usually only use the mugs for coffee and maybe the occasional iced tea (we don't even drink soda at home)
and
2) there are coffee makers in the rooms
3) We are RARELY at the resort to eat at quick service/fill it
4) I usually buy the mug primarily for use at home (then the picture wears office with frequent use and i get a new one on my next visit)
5) They are a pain in the neck to fill on the way to a park then cart around all day

Therefore, I can buy the mug for the ONE DAY option, thereby reducing my souvenir cost by $7!!!

Thanks Disney!

In all seriousness, for a resort that claims to be green/eco-friendly, I would have hoped that they might offer a Reduce/Reuse/Recycle option (ie. RFID re-activation only)

I honestly believe that WDC thinks these ideas up halfway, then floats them to us to hash out solutions for all the scenarios they never even considered. I swear they should offer the DIS a residual for R&D input.

You know, Doc's comment actually lit a light bulb for me on what might be the simpliest way for disney to offer a cheaper "re-use" option.

since the mug design itself never changes, I don't see any reason they can't place chips in lids they can sell for a little less money to help encourage reuse/recycling older mugs. A guest comes in with an older mug from a previous trip (even a DVC or AP holder), Disney sells them a new lid for slightly less than what the new mug costs (even if it's just a 10% discount from the new mug cost), And then the guest will now have lid which enables the RFID fountains to work on their old mugs.


The biggest issues with this idea would be if there actually is a health code reason for the lack of re-activation options so far, and the fact that lids can be easily misplaced or left at a table when a guest goes for the refill. (which also brings to mind another question on what the range of the fountains are, and if it would be a pain to hold the lid near enough the machine to get your refill)

 

[EAWildman]

The economics of it would seem to be different, though.

A theme park has certain minimum staffing levels which must be maintained regardless of crowd levels. If those staffing levels aren't significantly impacted by the Passholder population, then it costs Disney little to accommodate the heavy AP users.

Additionally, there is a presumption that Passholders will end up spending additional dollars during their visits: food, drink, trading pins, vinylmation, etc.

With the refillable mug, there's a very real cost associated with the product delivered at each refill. And I don't see the mug spurning additional sales.

Ok, perhaps we are some odd exception. We live in Georgia, so we are not local. We have stayed up to 25 days at WDW with annual passes and have ALWAYS stayed on property, though we could always stay offsite too. Having an Annual Passholder refilable mug would encourage me to stay onsite on subsequent visits, especially since the mug would work at ANY WDW resort I choose. Having an annual passholder stay on property would seem to be a plus for Disney, as it would certainly spur additional spending.

Not to mention that having a mug at the resorts tends to suggest eating at the resorts as well. Even if you charged $25 for annual passholder mug, and assuming you used it 25 days, that would still be a buck a day and Disney would still be making a profit, unless you hang out at the drink station all day.

Eric

 

[Topper]

To be clear, those 12 year old Wilderness Lodge mugs you see have "lifetime refills" chiseled into them. Those people, me included, have lifetime refills at those resorts. No ifs, ands, or buts, the mug is a contract, and if they're being used, it's not stealing.

Can you take and post a picture of this "chiseling" on the so-called "forever" mugs?

 

[Spacedog1975]

Can you take and post a picture of this "chiseling" on the so-called "forever" mugs?

Can we take 5 seconds to use the tool that we're already connected through before antagonizing one another? Facts are easily unearthed:

Lifetime Mug References

 

[mm1971]

So basically what used to be 14.99 for the length of your stay is now for 3 days and you need to pay an extra $3 to have it length of stay. Kind of hitting guests in the wallet again. Unless you are only staying a few days.

I don't fault Disney as it is a $$ issue, especially given all the mugs I see still being used from the 1980's. At least you can use them at any QS resort location. Note to self. Increase budget for trip by $20.

 

[doconeill]

Can we take 5 seconds to use the tool that we're already connected through before antagonizing one another. Facts are easily unearthed:

Lifetime Mug References

Interestingly, I DID do a search, and all I can find is that there is no such language on the mugs, but rather a lack of any language. And people being told at the time they purchased them that they were good for a lifetime (of the mug, presumably), but not necessarily any official language to it that I could find...

 

[Spacedog1975]

Interestingly, I DID do a search, and all I can find is that there is no such language on the mugs, but rather a lack of any language. And people being told at the time they purchased them that they were good for a lifetime (of the mug, presumably), but not necessarily any official language to it that I could find...

You're right that there is no photographic evidence, but plenty of people indicating that this is how the mugs were sold to them.

Every mug that I have bought has been "length of stay". I have no memory of getting refillable mugs in 1991 or 1980.

I try to do 7-8 days when I go to Disney, and the length of stay option (especially with DDP) is a value for me. I don't have a problem with not reusing prior mugs. I would prefer it if they could either be reactivated or redesigned.

 

[tjkraz]

Ok, perhaps we are some odd exception. We live in Georgia, so we are not local. We have stayed up to 25 days at WDW with annual passes and have ALWAYS stayed on property, though we could always stay offsite too.

Sure but there are also tens-of-thousands--perhaps hundreds-of-thousands--of Passholders with very different patterns. Some make near daily visits to the parks and could refill an "annual" mug hundreds of times.

If Disney offers an "annual" mug, they can't differentiate between you using it 25 days and someone else who will use it 300+ days per year.

Clearly there are many different approaches Disney COULD have taken involving re-use of the same mug, more than 14 days, minimal fees fro refills, refills in theme parks, etc. There's never going to be a one-size-fits-all solution.

 

[darnheather]

You know, Doc's comment actually lit a light bulb for me on what might be the simpliest way for disney to offer a cheaper "re-use" option.

since the mug design itself never changes, I don't see any reason they can't place chips in lids they can sell for a little less money to help encourage reuse/recycling older mugs. A guest comes in with an older mug from a previous trip (even a DVC or AP holder), Disney sells them a new lid for slightly less than what the new mug costs (even if it's just a 10% discount from the new mug cost), And then the guest will now have lid which enables the RFID fountains to work on their old mugs.


The biggest issues with this idea would be if there actually is a health code reason for the lack of re-activation options so far, and the fact that lids can be easily misplaced or left at a table when a guest goes for the refill. (which also brings to mind another question on what the range of the fountains are, and if it would be a pain to hold the lid near enough the machine to get your refill)

Instead of charging for a new something just reactivate the RFID tag. Easy peasy.

 

[Disneybuckeye]

Just my .02, but I am not thrilled that Disney will now keep track of how many times I get a drink. Are they going to track next how many times I go to the bathroom? I am not big on conspiracy theories, but we will walk to the Hess station and bring back water, beer, and coke to just keep in our room. Much less than two mugs would cost.

 

[doconeill]

Instead of charging for a new something just reactivate the RFID tag. Easy peasy.

Except they are very specifically disallowing this.

It isn't a technological issue though. Activating an old ID should be just as easy as activating a new one. There must be a different reason.

 

[DCTooTall]

Instead of charging for a new something just reactivate the RFID tag. Easy peasy.

I'm going to assume that MAYBE part of their reasoning for not doing so currently could be related to a security or technical concern.... such as either concern over the life expectancy of the RFID chips [either design life due to a powered active design, or maybe even concerns of robustness from things like people washing their mugs at home in a dishwasher and potential damage to the chip depending upon it's placement in the cup].... or the risk of someone hacking or cloning the RFID chips within cups that have spent significant time outside of Disney's possession.

There could also be a training, customer service, or system limitation in place currently that could make it difficult to simply reactivate an old mug.

Training: adding another set of complications to the cashier training regarding verifying the mug is RFID compliant and then how to ring up and reactivate it for whatever time frame the customer desires.

Customer Service: Currently if your mug doesn't read or work, Disney can just swap it out and give you a new one since the old one was defective on their watch. If a re-activated mug doesn't read or won't work, It brings up a whole slew of technical support issues [why won't it read/work], and would limit their ability to 'make it right' easily. [refund your reactivation price? ok.... but then you would need to pay more to get a new cup.].

System Limitation: How is the POS and RFID System set up? Will each cup have a totally unique RFID identifier? Or because they are cups with a max 14day 'lifespan', is Disney just going to cycle between a small number of RFID's with the basic assumption that the odds of having 2 guests on site, with a new active mug, during the same 14 day period, would be astronomical.... but the odds greatly increase for a ID Collision if older mugs are brought back onsite after their initial expiration.

Or maybe it's a POS limitation in how valid ID's are stored in the database and activated. Maybe a Central warehouse or each resort loads each shipment into inventory for the POS system upon receipt, with old inventory set to either self destruct from the database after it's authorization period ends or be 'cleaned up' from the database after a set time period. Either way, it would make sense to try and keep the database 'clean' in order to improve system performance and safe on storage needs. It would then also be logical that maybe the POS systems the cashiers use are unable to add an RFID to the database, but are only able to update an existing record.



Now.... I could also see most of these issues becoming much more of a moot point as they expand the Magicband system. They may then decide to start tying your drink refills to your Magicband (RFID Tickets) instead of the mug itself, which could very easily make it much more likely that they could offer a "old mug use" type pricing.... even if it turns out to be a direct fountain-initiated per-refill charge. [IE. You have your room charge privileges or charge card tied to your Magicband, so for a drink refill you could bypass a cashier and just walk up to the self serve soda fountain. The system would then read your Magicband and charge $1 to your account for a one-time-refill ]

 

[doconeill]

I'm going to assume that MAYBE part of their reasoning for not doing so currently could be related to a security or technical concern.... such as either concern over the life expectancy of the RFID chips [either design life due to a powered active design, or maybe even concerns of robustness from things like people washing their mugs at home in a dishwasher and potential damage to the chip depending upon it's placement in the cup].... or the risk of someone hacking or cloning the RFID chips within cups that have spent significant time outside of Disney's possession.

Now that is something I hadn't thought of...I don't think they'd use an active chip (raises costs when not needed), but the idea of being able to clone IDs, attach them to other mugs, then go back and re-activate the original.

Still, not something typically possible by Joe Guest.

Training: adding another set of complications to the cashier training regarding verifying the mug is RFID compliant and then how to ring up and reactivate it for whatever time frame the customer desires.

Doesn't seem like that should be an issue though. Read the mug's chip, push a button. Shouldn't matter new or old.

Customer Service: Currently if your mug doesn't read or work, Disney can just swap it out and give you a new one since the old one was defective on their watch. If a re-activated mug doesn't read or won't work, It brings up a whole slew of technical support issues [why won't it read/work], and would limit their ability to 'make it right' easily. [refund your reactivation price? ok.... but then you would need to pay more to get a new cup.].

Again, I'm not sure it would matter much...just swap it out for a new mug. If the old mug failed after activation, THAT could be complicated it determining what its ID was to do the swap, if there isn't another code that can be human read on it, to get the entitlements left. Or, in the name of customer service, just give them a 14-day cup and not worry about it.

System Limitation: How is the POS and RFID System set up? Will each cup have a totally unique RFID identifier? Or because they are cups with a max 14day 'lifespan', is Disney just going to cycle between a small number of RFID's with the basic assumption that the odds of having 2 guests on site, with a new active mug, during the same 14 day period, would be astronomical.... but the odds greatly increase for a ID Collision if older mugs are brought back onsite after their initial expiration.

RFIDs can be made to be unique to such a degree that you should never need to worry about collisions. I deal with systems that generate "Universally Unique IDs", and as long as you do it right there should never be a collision.

Or maybe it's a POS limitation in how valid ID's are stored in the database and activated. Maybe a Central warehouse or each resort loads each shipment into inventory for the POS system upon receipt, with old inventory set to either self destruct from the database after it's authorization period ends or be 'cleaned up' from the database after a set time period. Either way, it would make sense to try and keep the database 'clean' in order to improve system performance and safe on storage needs. It would then also be logical that maybe the POS systems the cashiers use are unable to add an RFID to the database, but are only able to update an existing record.

Hmmm...following the KISS model, I wouldn't pre-load IDs into a database. I'd just have a database of active IDs and when they expire. At POS, you scan the ID, the guest makes the purchase, and it is inserted into the database. After expiration it is removed. Keep the DB as small as possible.

Then again, Disney must be the masters of keeping information like that in perpetuity, since there are still all those ancient non expiring tickets out there that they have to keep the information on...