Racial Discrimination? More blatant examples? More subtle?

[Mrs.Toad]

I cannot quite believe that this was posted. I'm disgusted by these sentiments.

My thoughts exactly!

 

[Shoshana]

To the OP in an attempt to address her original question:

(fwiw, I'm white)

I say its racism when

white public school kids throw rocks and say the n-word plus lover to me and my best friend when we're walking home from school with her younger biracial brothers.

people assume by virtue of the fact that we share the same skin color, that it's okay to talk about the (insert derogatory words here) Hmong, Mexican, and African-American people in our neighborhood.

people say that I live on the wrong side of town.

people tell me that my dd's biological mother should have learned how to keep her legs together..

people tell me that our mayor (with a Hispanic last name) is out to screw the whites and funnel money away from the 4th of July parade to a Cinco de Mayo parade (which has never even been suggested in this town).

people use derogatory words and stereotypes about Jews to my face -- and then stutter and stumble all over themselves when they learn I'm Jewish (same principle as racism, although Jews are not a race).

I say institutionalized racism as well as personal racism can explain the recent finding that college-educated African-American men are suffering disproportionally to their white male peers in this economic down turn (e.g., higher rates of job loss); as well as the wage gap between white and black workers. (and yes, sexism can explain the wage gap between men and women).

I say institutionalized racism and discrimination can explain the achievement gap between white teens and teens of color.

I could list a 10000 more...

Of course individual racism can be and is directed at people of any and all races but to assert that the effects of institutionalized racism and discrimination towards African-Americans and other minority groups in this country are past and that whites are now somehow a beleaguered group would be laughable if it were not so profoundly sad.

 

[Genesia]

you know, i never thought id say this but working for Disneyland has actually turned me pretty racist.

Each ethnicity group has their ups and downs based on common things that i see happening...

I would explain it more into detail if anyone is interested.

I would like to hear your details, but I would prefer to do it by private message if you still work for Disneyland so that you don't lose your job.

Racism does not come from ignorance. It comes from experience. Your most racially conscious white people have lived in the most racially mixed areas.

I am not going to get mad at a white person who moves into a black or other non-white area and just shuts up about it. They will not be welcome there and will soon leave anyway. It is the phonies that I can't stand. The ones who like to have non-white friends as collectors items. Having black friends is usually the most self-congratulatory thing they can do, but other non-white friends are desired according to their rarity in the surrounding community. Of course moving to someplace like Detroit or New Orleans is never the solution because dating someone not white or adopting non-white children is not going to get them any brownie points for their supposed color-blindness in a non-white community but is much more likely to get their white butts kicked. In a white neighborhood they can play the martyr by claiming some racist bogeyman looks at them funny while never feeling like they are in any actual danger.

 

[crashbb]

I would like to hear your details, but I would prefer to do it by private message if you still work for Disneyland so that you don't lose your job.

Racism does not come from ignorance. It comes from experience. Your most racially conscious white people have lived in the most racially mixed areas.

I am not going to get mad at a white person who moves into a black or other non-white area and just shuts up about it. They will not be welcome there and will soon leave anyway. It is the phonies that I can't stand. The ones who like to have non-white friends as collectors items. Having black friends is usually the most self-congratulatory thing they can do, but other non-white friends are desired according to their rarity in the surrounding community. Of course moving to someplace like Detroit or New Orleans is never the solution because dating someone not white or adopting non-white children is not going to get them any brownie points for their supposed color-blindness in a non-white community but is much more likely to get their white butts kicked. In a white neighborhood they can play the martyr by claiming some racist bogeyman looks at them funny while never feeling like they are in any actual danger.

So, white people aren't allowed to be friends with people who are not also white? Or live in areas that have people who aren't white living in them?

I'm totally confused by what you are saying.

 

[mamajoan]

I would like to hear your details, but I would prefer to do it by private message if you still work for Disneyland so that you don't lose your job.

Racism does not come from ignorance. It comes from experience. Your most racially conscious white people have lived in the most racially mixed areas.

I am not going to get mad at a white person who moves into a black or other non-white area and just shuts up about it. They will not be welcome there and will soon leave anyway. It is the phonies that I can't stand. The ones who like to have non-white friends as collectors items. Having black friends is usually the most self-congratulatory thing they can do, but other non-white friends are desired according to their rarity in the surrounding community. Of course moving to someplace like Detroit or New Orleans is never the solution because dating someone not white or adopting non-white children is not going to get them any brownie points for their supposed color-blindness in a non-white community but is much more likely to get their white butts kicked. In a white neighborhood they can play the martyr by claiming some racist bogeyman looks at them funny while never feeling like they are in any actual danger.

amazing... truly amazing........

 

[Genesia]

Read it again CrashBb. I think it is quite clear. My point is that white people who have had the least exposure to non-white people are the most certain that they know what is good for other races. I am not offended at being called a racist so go ahead and do it if you need to. It is okay with me if calling me a racist makes you feel better about yourself. I am a racist. Does this mean that I lie awake at night plotting against other races and wish them harm? No. It means that I am not going to patronize them and act as if white people are magical people who could protect other races from all unhappiness if we really wanted to.

My grievance with white people who have to tell me about any non-white friends that they have and make sure that I know that these people aren't white is that it really is all about themselves. They are the same kind who suck up to me when they find out that I am a lesbian. They suddenly want to be my friend because having a gay friend makes them so cool. "See how tolerant I am. See how more people should be like me." I have more respect for the right-wingers who tell me "You are going to Hell. There is nothing you can do about it." That doesn't mean that I won't have heterosexuals at my wedding next week. I will have those who want to be there to wish Teresa and I well. I just won't have those who wanted to come because it is a same-sex wedding and being photographed with us would make a statement about themselves. They wouldn't have been interested if Teresa were a man.

Non-whites who wear their bigotry like a badge of honor know how to play white people who want to prove they aren't racist like a fiddle. It is very lucrative too.

 

[Genesia]

That must have been beyond terrifying, facing death. I don't know anyone that has had that type of experience, but I have read accounts of similar incidences in Africa. I'm sure you see the world through the experiences you have had, as we all do.

I think race relations are a real conundrum. There are inequities and unbalance in many areas which are not isolated to any one race or group.

I thank God every day that I don't live in Africa anymore. We sort of have Africa in our midst right here though. Have you ever been to downtown Detroit on a Saturday night? How about downtown Los Angeles? We had gangs coming into the emergency department threatening the staff and each other while other gang members lie dying from their violence. I decided that I would not take any more "urban" assignments as a mobile nurse because I learned what that meant.

I keep hearing about "white privilege." I have worked taking care of white people in West Virginia or Kentucky on "rural" assignments where the people were often toothless and some of them didn't even have indoor plumbing. They were so poor. They knew that I was a Yankee girl too. But they never tried to intimidate me. They never used slurs against me. They would invite me "that new nurse lady" to their socials and serve me some iced tea in a food jar with the label soaked off as if it were just the most normal thing in the world. These people who had nothing and were scoffed at as "white trash" never made me feel like I was in any danger or that I owed them anything out there in the middle of no where. They have suffered incredible rates of poverty and scorn but don't have this "World owes me" attitude.

 

[shrubber]

To the OP in an attempt to address her original question:

(fwiw, I'm white)

I say its racism when

white public school kids throw rocks and say the n-word plus lover to me and my best friend when we're walking home from school with her younger biracial brothers.
Perhaps, Schoolkids will use any difference to exploit however.
people assume by virtue of the fact that we share the same skin color, that it's okay to talk about the (insert derogatory words here) Hmong, Mexican, and African-American people in our neighborhood.
I don't see it?
people say that I live on the wrong side of town.
Don't see that either
people tell me that my dd's biological mother should have learned how to keep her legs together..
Racist? really
people tell me that our mayor (with a Hispanic last name) is out to screw the whites and funnel money away from the 4th of July parade to a Cinco de Mayo parade (which has never even been suggested in this town).
That's sad
people use derogatory words and stereotypes about Jews to my face -- and then stutter and stumble all over themselves when they learn I'm Jewish (same principle as racism, although Jews are not a race).
Um, sure they are. Judaism is a religion, People traced back to Judea are Jewish, ask your Rabbi
I say institutionalized racism as well as personal racism can explain the recent finding that college-educated African-American men are suffering disproportionally to their white male peers in this economic down turn (e.g., higher rates of job loss); as well as the wage gap between white and black workers. (and yes, sexism can explain the wage gap between men and women).
Wow, you are really wrong here
I say institutionalized racism and discrimination can explain the achievement gap between white teens and teens of color.
This is a false a statement of massive preoportions
I could list a 10000 more...

Of course individual racism can be and is directed at people of any and all races but to assert that the effects of institutionalized racism and discrimination towards African-Americans and other minority groups in this country are past and that whites are now somehow a beleaguered group would be laughable if it were not so profoundly sad.

sometimes incredulous response in red

 

[okeydokey]

Read it again CrashBb. I think it is quite clear. My point is that white people who have had the least exposure to non-white people are the most certain that they know what is good for other races. I am not offended at being called a racist so go ahead and do it if you need to. It is okay with me if calling me a racist makes you feel better about yourself. I am a racist. Does this mean that I lie awake at night plotting against other races and wish them harm? No. It means that I am not going to patronize them and act as if white people are magical people who could protect other races from all unhappiness if we really wanted to.

My grievance with white people who have to tell me about any non-white friends that they have and make sure that I know that these people aren't white is that it really is all about themselves. They are the same kind who suck up to me when they find out that I am a lesbian. They suddenly want to be my friend because having a gay friend makes them so cool. "See how tolerant I am. See how more people should be like me." I have more respect for the right-wingers who tell me "You are going to Hell. There is nothing you can do about it." That doesn't mean that I won't have heterosexuals at my wedding next week. I will have those who want to be there to wish Teresa and I well. I just won't have those who wanted to come because it is a same-sex wedding and being photographed with us would make a statement about themselves. They wouldn't have been interested if Teresa were a man.

Non-whites who wear their bigotry like a badge of honor know how to play white people who want to prove they aren't racist like a fiddle. It is very lucrative too.

You sound so angry and bitter. I don't any people like the ones you describe.

 

[DancingBear]

Back to the OP's inquiry. First, I want to say that although Dawn and I have opposing views on almost everything (or at least did back when we had political discussions on this board), I find her inquiry sincere and open-minded and not an attempt to get around the rules.

Second, I think here is a story that shows how more subtle forms of racism work against minority communities:

As she describes it, Beth Jacobson and her fellow loan officers at Wells Fargo Bank “rode the stagecoach from hell” for a decade, systematically singling out blacks in Baltimore and suburban Maryland for high-interest subprime mortgages.

...Wells Fargo, Ms. Jacobson said in an interview, saw the black community as fertile ground for subprime mortgages, as working-class blacks were hungry to be a part of the nation’s home-owning mania. Loan officers, she said, pushed customers who could have qualified for prime loans into subprime mortgages. Another loan officer stated in an affidavit filed last week that employees had referred to blacks as “mud people” and to subprime lending as “ghetto loans.”

...“We’ve known that African-Americans and Latinos are getting subprime loans while whites of the same credit profile are getting the lower-cost loans,” said Eric Halperin, director of the Washington office of the Center for Responsible Lending. “The question has been why, and the gory details of this complaint may provide an answer.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/us/07baltimore.html

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I cannot quite believe that this was posted. I'm disgusted by these sentiments.

I've had to ignore those posts as I do not know how to responde and it reminds me of folks who say US poverty isn't all that bad when compared to ethiopia or something.

It gets my goat when folks justify what is wrong in the US by saying that our worst is better than the best of some third world countries. Boggles my mind.

 

[Shoshana]

Shoshana wrote: same principle as racism, although Jews are not a race).

Shrubber replied: Um, sure they are. Judaism is a religion, People traced back to Judea are Jewish, ask your Rabbi

Perhaps you should not be so certain of the accuracy of your statements -- or "check with your religious authority (minister?)". Jews are NOT a race. They are an ethnic group of whom some follow the religious practices of Judaism and some of whom do not. Jews belong to ALL races. Originally, they may have belonged to the same race, but not today. Just as the original Catholics might have belonged to the same race, it would be ludicrous to assert that Catholics today are a race.

The OP asked for OUR experiences and interpretations of racism and discrimination. I assume from your comments that we've had vastly different world experiences which have shaped our frames of reference. Whether or not you validate my experiences and interpretations is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[DancingBear]

sometimes incredulous response in red

Much of what you take to be fact in your responses is, in the least, subject to dispute. For example, the question of whether Jews are a race (and what in general constitutes differences in races) is very much a subject of debate, and has evolved over time and in different circumstances.

The Supreme Court looked at this issue in 1987, specifically in the context of interpreting whether Jews could allege that they were protected under laws prohibiting racial discrimination (the bolding is mine):

We agree with petitioners, however, that the Court of Appeals erred in holding that Jews cannot state a § 1982 claim against other white defendants. That view rested on the notion that, because Jews today are not thought to be members of a separate race, they cannot make out a claim of racial discrimination within the meaning of § 1982. That construction of the section we have today rejected in Saint Francis College v. Al-Khazraji, ante p. 481 U. S. 604. Our opinion in that case observed that definitions of race when § 1982 was passed were not the same as they are today, ante at 481 U. S. 609-613, and concluded that the section was "intended to protect from discrimination identifiable classes of persons who are subjected to intentional discrimination solely because of their ancestry or ethnic characteristics."

Ante at 481 U. S. 613. As Saint Francis makes clear, the question before us is not whether Jews are considered to be a separate race by today's standards, but whether, at the time § 1982 was adopted, Jews constituted a group of people that Congress intended to protect. It is evident from the legislative history of the section reviewed in Saint Francis College, a review that we need not repeat here, that Jews and Arabs were among the peoples then considered to be distinct races, and hence within the protection of the statute. Jews are not foreclosed from stating a cause of action against other members of what today is considered to be part of the Caucasian race.

http://supreme.justia.com/us/481/615/case.html

 

[shrubber]

Shoshana wrote: same principle as racism, although Jews are not a race).

Shrubber replied: Um, sure they are. Judaism is a religion, People traced back to Judea are Jewish, ask your Rabbi

Perhaps you should not be so certain of the accuracy of your statements -- or "check with your religious authority (minister?). Jews are NOT a race. They are an ethnic group of whom some follow the religious practices of Judaism and some do not. Jews belong to ALL races. Originally, they may have belonged to the same race, but not today. Just as the original Catholics might have belonged to the same race, it would be ludicrous to assert that Catholics today are a race.

The OP asked for OUR experiences and interpretations of racism and discrimination. I assume from your comments that we've had vastly different world experiences which have shaped our frames of reference. Whether or not you validate my experiences and interpretations is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Well, Rabbi Enkin says Jews belong to race of people.... Is he wrong too?
http://judaism.about.com/od/orthodoxfaqenkin/f/raceorreligion.htm

And I believe you are again wrong in some of your other statements.\
Certainly, not your personal experiences, such as discussions about your Mayor, but statements about institutionalized racism and discrimination can explain the achievement gap between white teens and teens of color
are woefully incorrect

 

[Shoshana]

I've had to ignore those posts as I do not know how to responde and it reminds me of folks who say US poverty isn't all that bad when compared to ethiopia or something.

It gets my goat when folks justify what is wrong in the US by saying that our worst is better than the best of some third world countries. Boggles my mind.

I've have to ignore the vast majority of them too. Sometimes, I decide to reply, not to change any one's opinion (like my words could ever have that kind of power), but it's nice to know that not all of us think that way.

 

[DancingBear]

...statements about institutionalized racism and discrimination can explain the achievement gap between white teens and teens of color are woefully incorrect

That is only your opinion, and no more valid than Shoshana's. You may not agree with those who argue otherwise, but it's worth remembering that it's only been 40 years since racial discrimination was enforced by law in this country.

 

[Shoshana]

Well, Rabbi Enkin says Jews belong to race of people.... Is he wrong too?
http://judaism.about.com/od/orthodoxfaqenkin/f/raceorreligion.htm

And I believe you are again wrong in some of your other statements.\
Certainly, not your personal experiences, such as discussions about your Mayor, but statements about institutionalized racism and discrimination can explain the achievement gap between white teens and teens of color
are woefully incorrect

To be tactful, I would say his answer is incomplete. Here is a reputable source for an explanation that is more in depth than the one I gave.
http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

Again, I am not going to debate the merit of my statements -- there would be no point. You already have judged my perspective to be inaccurate. I have no desire to debate this with you. I answered the OP's question. Her son, if he is interested, is able to do the research to either support or disprove the assertions I've made.

 

[shrubber]

Much of what you take to be fact in your responses is, in the least, subject to dispute. For example, the question of whether Jews are a race (and what in general constitutes differences in races) is very much a subject of debate, and has evolved over time and in different circumstances.

The Supreme Court looked at this issue in 1987, specifically in the context of interpreting whether Jews could allege that they were protected under laws prohibiting racial discrimination (the bolding is mine):

http://supreme.justia.com/us/481/615/case.html

I am afraid you misread that ruling, the SCOTUS reversed the ruling of the appelate court and found that the civil rights act did indeed protect Jews as a race.

 

[shrubber]

To be tactful, I would say his answer is incomplete. Here is a reputable source for an explanation that is more in depth than the one I gave.
http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

Again, I am not going to debate the merit of my statements -- there would be no point. You already have judged my perspective to be inaccurate. I have no desire to debate this with you. I answered the OP's question. Her son, if he is interested, is able to do the research to either support or disprove the assertions I've made.

Making blanket statements like those without providing any insight or explanations is meritless, and they fail to stand on their own

 

[DancingBear]

I am afraid you misread that ruling, the SCOTUS reversed the ruling of the appelate court and found that the civil rights act did indeed protect Jews as a race.

I didn't misread anything. My point, as I clearly stated, was that

...the question of whether Jews are a race (and what in general constitutes differences in races) is very much a subject of debate, and has evolved over time and in different circumstances

The discussion in that case clearly supports that statement. The Court's decision on the more narrow question of the application of Section 1982 is immaterial to my point.

My point, again clearly stated (but apparently misread by you), is that whether Jews are a race is an open question, not a settled fact as you seem to believe. Your view of the matter is no more valid that Shoshana's.