Question on BWV points

[Dean]

It would be a mistake to believe I have any interest in timeshares beyond DVC. I don't. I know there are many models and some are very nice (I'm quite familiar with Marriott)...but only the design of DVC was of interest because it is almost completely interchangeable/flexible.

Never was interested in "my week"...frankly life is too short/unpredictable for that.

Your loss, DVC is only flexible if you can get what you want, that's becoming more difficult.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Your loss, DVC is only flexible if you can get what you want, that's becoming more difficult.

I agree...because they've screwed it up with dump points like Saratoga and the gator feeding Polynesian bungalows...

The system is both overpriced and strained logistically

 

[_auroraborealis_]

The only thing anyone was ever promised was the specific interest in their contract. The original OKW purchasers were never really promised anywhere else to use the points; new purchasers aren't promised they can get wherever they want at 7 months. In those respects, nothing has changed.

Just because it's well-branded and Disney don't call it a timeshare doesn't make it not a timeshare. It's not a "special club," and all the membership hoo-hoo is branding.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The only thing anyone was ever promised was the specific interest in their contract. The original OKW purchasers were never really promised anywhere else to use the points; new purchasers aren't promised they can get wherever they want at 7 months. In those respects, nothing has changed.

Just because it's well-branded and Disney don't call it a timeshare doesn't make it not a timeshare. It's not a "special club," and all the membership hoo-hoo is branding.

With those expectations...you'll never be disappointed. So there's that.

The reality is that it was a really great product for 20 years...now it's a different product. Individual opinions vary...that's cool.

But don't give me the legalese argument, please? It's the go to everytime somebody points out potential flaws in DVC...which roughly translates to "I'm not willing to think that maybe MY DISNEY is trying to screw me".

We see lots of variations on this. Just call it a difference of opinion ...not citizen kane.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Here's the thing. Even the "MY DISNEY is trying to screw me!" argument is a pretty good indicator that their branding has worked. Heck, there are people in Facebook groups who are convinced DVC is not a timeshare.

While you may not like the legalese, officially, you bought rights into a timeshare condo association where you don't get to vote within the association, and they can do a lot of things within the bounds of the contract you hold.

I got my contract as part of a lawsuit, so all it cost me is dues. No one ever sold me the brand, so I'm a bit more detached.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Here's the thing. Even the "MY DISNEY is trying to screw me!" argument is a pretty good indicator that their branding has worked. Heck, there are people in Facebook groups who are convinced DVC is not a timeshare.

While you may not like the legalese, officially, you bought rights into a timeshare condo association where you don't get to vote within the association, and they can do a lot of things within the bounds of the contract you hold.

I got my contract as part of a lawsuit, so all it cost me is dues. No one ever sold me the brand, so I'm a bit more detached.

Oh I mostly agree...I've actually read that whole contract and it's frankly one sided toward Disney...it's really bad. Which is why I hope they don't get license with the "you only bought..." thought pattern picking up steam...

I do agree that it's a timeshare...just a non-traditional one. I will decry anything that moves it toward a traditional timeshare. Those suck and have a well earned reputation for doing so...frankly.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I got my contract as part of a lawsuit, so all it cost me is dues. No one ever sold me the brand, so I'm a bit more detached.

Oh this just got interesting...DO tell?

 

[Dean]

Oh I mostly agree...I've actually read that whole contract and it's frankly one sided toward Disney...it's really bad. Which is why I hope they don't get license with the "you only bought..." thought pattern picking up steam...

I do agree that it's a timeshare...just a non-traditional one. I will decry anything that moves it toward a traditional timeshare. Those suck and have a well earned reputation for doing so...frankly.

There are almost no traditional timeshares anymore defined by the fixed week/fixed unit for the entire resort concept and probably no new ones that way, there are many variations. Mainly because companies can make more money not the other options. All of the better ones, including some of the ones with horrible sales tactics, have positive attributes. When one says what's the best timeshare, the questions to look at include for what, where, how long, how flexible are you, etc. DVC is horrible for anything that's not WDW but it's great for WDW (though expensive. But it's great because of location, not the resorts or systems themselves IMO. NONE of the off property sites bring options that can't be duplicated in other ways except for the interchange at WDW. And I'd argue that every one of the non WDW options has a peer or at least very good options in the area or that do the same thing. For HH & VB I think there are better options to do similar trips. ASAMOF we'll be sitting on the beach at the top timeshare on HH with seven 2 BR units that were reserved 15 months out and locked in. VGC is nice but there are many hotels and a couple of other timeshares within a mile. For HI they have 1 option, a nice options, but not really any nicer than the Marriott nearby. We own DVC, Marriott, Bluegreen and Wyndham (small here). I get the best value and the most benefits out of our non DVC options and truth be told, even most of my DVC stays are using the other timeshares.

 

[Dean]

Here's the thing. Even the "MY DISNEY is trying to screw me!" argument is a pretty good indicator that their branding has worked. Heck, there are people in Facebook groups who are convinced DVC is not a timeshare.

While you may not like the legalese, officially, you bought rights into a timeshare condo association where you don't get to vote within the association, and they can do a lot of things within the bounds of the contract you hold.

I got my contract as part of a lawsuit, so all it cost me is dues. No one ever sold me the brand, so I'm a bit more detached.

DVC was our first timeshare and our first love. But 23 years of knowledge and experience has taught us it is what it is, just another nice timeshare with pluses AND minuses. DVC has lots of positive attributes for WDW stays and for flexibility in some situations, but it also has limitations. The dues are 20-30% higher due to the flexibility which we pay for in terms of maint fees. It still has lots of positives but a number of negatives as well. And the worst part is that many of the negatives could be easily fixable and likely for no or little additional cost, just effort and planning. A real and working request system with priorities, response and attention when there are issues, better planning for closures/refurbishment, and likely the most important, the backbone to say no when people complain unreasonably and the forethought to be consistent when there are complaints valid or not. In a word they're far too reactive and not nearly as proactive as they should be. A good timeshare has a 5/10 year refurbishment plan, an OK one a 7/14 yr refurbishment plan, Historically DVC hasn't had a plan that I can tell though that appears to be changing.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

There are almost no traditional timeshares anymore defined by the fixed week/fixed unit for the entire resort concept and probably no new ones that way, there are many variations. Mainly because companies can make more money not the other options. All of the better ones, including some of the ones with horrible sales tactics, have positive attributes. When one says what's the best timeshare, the questions to look at include for what, where, how long, how flexible are you, etc. DVC is horrible for anything that's not WDW but it's great for WDW (though expensive. But it's great because of location, not the resorts or systems themselves IMO. NONE of the off property sites bring options that can't be duplicated in other ways except for the interchange at WDW. And I'd argue that every one of the non WDW options has a peer or at least very good options in the area or that do the same thing. For HH & VB I think there are better options to do similar trips. ASAMOF we'll be sitting on the beach at the top timeshare on HH with seven 2 BR units that were reserved 15 months out and locked in. VGC is nice but there are many hotels and a couple of other timeshares within a mile. For HI they have 1 option, a nice options, but not really any nicer than the Marriott nearby. We own DVC, Marriott, Bluegreen and Wyndham (small here). I get the best value and the most benefits out of our non DVC options and truth be told, even most of my DVC stays are using the other timeshares.

Oh I hear you...I see where you're coming from and have little dispute to your points.

I just don't like timeshares all that much...I guess.

But DVC - in my experience - is 100% useless outside of WDW and the grand Californian (which is basically also useless)...it's meant for parks. I've been to Hilton head and vero and they're nice...but not an incredible use of points.

"Adventures by Disney" is ridiculous...cruise line on points makes no sense to me...

My personal favorite is still "the Disney collection"

What a crock of sludge

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Keep in mind that HHI and VB were properties 2 and 3, although maybe not that order. Doesn't matter though -- the original plan was to do a bunch of properties away from the parks. They found that it ran them into additional state regulations to navigate, and that it didn't have the same level of appeal. That's why it took them years until they played with another off-property property (AUL), and when they did that, they promptly ran afoul of another state's rules.

Disney seem to have originally intended this to be more of a full timeshare network.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Oh this just got interesting...DO tell?

It's a heartwarming true story about how long non-compliance with divorce decrees can follow someone, until they have to start signing over assets to make others whole before they're allowed to do things like touch locked-down retirement funds.

 

[Dean]

I just don't like timeshares all that much...I guess.

Maybe you don't understand them well enough to see how they could be helpful to you. IMO it takes at least a 2 BR for a week a year (or equivalent volume ? 1 BR two weeks) on average to make non DVC timeshares something worth seriously considering. But I can tell you that I get a dramatically better value out of my non DVC timeshares (by multiples) but I do love the feel of the Disney properties and staying on property though I'm also comfortable and content staying off property for WDW as well. Unless one is taking most of their vacations at DL/WDW a well suited non DVC timeshare and paying cash for Disney is some way is almost always a better choice than DVC as a single entity. Let me see, over the past 20 years or so I've had the following with timeshares including direct usage and exchanges not including Marriott stays on free rewards points gotten due to timeshares. 3 Aruba trips 1.5-2 weeks, 3 stays at Marriott's Ocean Point, 2 stays Marriott on Marco Island, Gatlinburg 4 or 5 times, MX 3 trips (5 wks), MB twice, Nashville, twice, Longboat Key FL, St.Pete Beach, Savannah X2, Charleston, LV and 3 HI trips. TNTC at HHI on the beach, World Golf Village, Orlando, Destin and PCB and 50-60 DVC weeks not using points. And about 11 or 12 of those trips have been family trips up to 42 people with as many as 10 villas. We should have at least 43 total this summer in HH. I couldn't have done a fraction of those things without timeshares. Timeshares are not for everyone (DVC or otherwise) but they all work better for the well informed, the money is made on the buy as they say.

Keep in mind that HHI and VB were properties 2 and 3, although maybe not that order. Doesn't matter though -- the original plan was to do a bunch of properties away from the parks. They found that it ran them into additional state regulations to navigate, and that it didn't have the same level of appeal. That's why it took them years until they played with another off-property property (AUL), and when they did that, they promptly ran afoul of another state's rules.

Disney seem to have originally intended this to be more of a full timeshare network.

The slower than expected sales at VB & HH did cost us at least 3 off property timeshares that were formally in the works and very likely several more. CO, Newport Coast and NY city were pretty set until they pulled the plug. A different HI than we have now and DL Paris as a minimum were likely as well and well rumored. That's why I cringe when people talk about how much they love the low pressure sales process. In reality it has had big negatives to the membership and I think directly responsible for these losses to the system.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

No...I don't like timeshares and have have no interest in investing in them/paying maintenance...

Did I mention I'm not 65?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It's a heartwarming true story about how long non-compliance with divorce decrees can follow someone, until they have to start signing over assets to make others whole before they're allowed to do things like touch locked-down retirement funds.

Ahhhhaaa...well played, fraulein

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Ahhhhaaa...well played, fraulein

Humorously enough, I was the child to be supported ending up collecting on it. We're talking serious non-compliance where adult child ends up the beneficiary of the collection rights.

 

[Dean]

No...I don't like timeshares and have have no interest in investing in them/paying maintenance...

Did I mention I'm not 65?

So you don't own DVC?, else you are investing in one and paying maint fees.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

So you don't own DVC?, else you are investing in one and paying maint fees.

One shot deal because I worked in resorts/guest service/finance and I saw what the longterm danger in their rack pricing was...and sure enough.

I only wanted Disney. I'm cool going other places on my own

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Keep in mind that HHI and VB were properties 2 and 3, although maybe not that order. Doesn't matter though -- the original plan was to do a bunch of properties away from the parks. They found that it ran them into additional state regulations to navigate, and that it didn't have the same level of appeal. That's why it took them years until they played with another off-property property (AUL), and when they did that, they promptly ran afoul of another state's rules.

Disney seem to have originally intended this to be more of a full timeshare network.

Well...some truth.

But the rule of thumb is when "those darn regulations" is given as an excuse ...it's always a smoke screen.

They couldnt sell it as Disney world condos because there would have been a limited market/sales angle. No way they'd have this many units occupied now...but the reality is they want you in the Disney condos...its the model.

Again...I didn't theorize this...it was the actual stated goals.

Times they are a changin' though.

 

[Dean]

One shot deal because I worked in resorts/guest service/finance and I saw what the longterm danger in their rack pricing was...and sure enough.

I only wanted Disney. I'm cool going other places on my own

Timeshares certainly represent long term risk and commitment but they can also be a great tool for savings used correctly. One just needs to be educated and make good decisions on the buy.

Well...some truth.

But the rule of thumb is when "those darn regulations" is given as an excuse ...it's always a smoke screen.

They couldnt sell it as Disney world condos because there would have been a limited market/sales angle. No way they'd have this many units occupied now...but the reality is they want you in the Disney condos...its the model.

Again...I didn't theorize this...it was the actual stated goals.

Times they are a changin' though.

Someone will be in the timeshare so they don't really care if it's the member or someone else. The legalities are that the POS and FL laws are what we're buying into. Understanding that is key, it's not a smokescreen for those things that are related. It's about understanding what we're committing.