Question on BWV points

[lockedoutlogic]

Who knows why Disney does what they do.

Bill

Because starting with Saratoga they began over charging? Akl is a nice exception.

Other than that it has been intensifying

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Because starting with Saratoga they began over charging? Akl is a nice exception.

Other than that it has been intensifying

With SSR they matched it up to BWV/VWL/BCV so it was only overcharging in that most felt it was a similar location to OKW so it should be the equivalent. It was with BLT and VGC that they starting steadily increasing, each new resort being higher than the last up until CCV where they must have decided it wouldn't fly in comparison to VWL.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

With SSR they matched it up to BWV/VWL/BCV so it was only overcharging in that most felt it was a similar location to OKW so it should be the equivalent. It was with BLT and VGC that they starting steadily increasing, each new resort being higher than the last up until CCV where they must have decided it wouldn't fly in comparison to VWL.

Yep...agree with all of that...

 

[DebbieB]

With SSR they matched it up to BWV/VWL/BCV so it was only overcharging in that most felt it was a similar location to OKW so it should be the equivalent. It was with BLT and VGC that they starting steadily increasing, each new resort being higher than the last up until CCV where they must have decided it wouldn't fly in comparison to VWL.

I think part of the strategy with that was to keep dues cost per point down, making it easier to sell. The more points available to stretch the budget across, the lower price per point. Notice how high Copper Creek dues are with the lower points cost per night.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think part of the strategy with that was to keep dues cost per point down, making it easier to sell. The more points available to stretch the budget across, the lower price per point. Notice how high Copper Creek dues are with the lower points cost per night.

Up here...in the cheap seats...it sure seeems like they just jacked the point price and the charts up too quickly and broke their own model...

...but Robert iger wouldn't dare do that, would he?

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I think part of the strategy with that was to keep dues cost per point down, making it easier to sell. The more points available to stretch the budget across, the lower price per point. Notice how high Copper Creek dues are with the lower points cost per night.

Yes, but it's artificial of course as the newest resorts with higher point requirements and lower dues still have an overall nightly cost that is similar or more than the other resorts. DVD wins though as they get more up front as selling 4 million points vs 3 million gets them much, much more.

 

[crisi]

Yes, but it's artificial of course as the newest resorts with higher point requirements and lower dues still have an overall nightly cost that is similar or more than the other resorts. DVD wins though as they get more up front as selling 4 million points vs 3 million gets them much, much more.

I also probably drives a few add ons as earlier resort owners decide they need a small add on so they can stay at the higher point resorts.

 

[Dean]

Up here...in the cheap seats...it sure seeems like they just jacked the point price and the charts up too quickly and broke their own model...

...but Robert iger wouldn't dare do that, would he?

If the market will bear it, why not?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

If the market will bear it, why not?

There are indications that the market isnt bearing it well...sales have been ok but not spectacular.

And DDC...rest assured...knows that there is an unusual danger to DVC...there is no guarantee that the customers will replenish themselves.

Hear me out...the younger generations are increasingly falling behind and more and more in debt. They are burdened with more, they can't buy real estate young...moving out of their parents house has become a stresspoint. And frankly...the job market has been in overall decline for decades and doesn't look to really have an answer.

Boomers are better off than Xers and Y's are tracking significantly down.

There is more of a danger with thjs market than their others...and they've pushed it there too.

Don't live in this myth if WDW being somekind of laisse faire utopia...

First, that scenario exists nowhere
Second, the economic model there is a lot more duct taped together than you realize or they would admit.

 

[Dean]

There are indications that the market isnt bearing it well...sales have been ok but not spectacular.

And DDC...rest assured...knows that there is an unusual danger to DVC...there is no guarantee that the customers will replenish themselves.

Hear me out...the younger generations are increasingly falling behind and more and more in debt. They are burdened with more, they can't buy real estate young...moving out of their parents house has become a stresspoint. And frankly...the job market has been in overall decline for decades and doesn't look to really have an answer.

Boomers are better off than Xers and Y's are tracking significantly down.

There is more of a danger with thjs market than their others...and they've pushed it there too.

Don't live in this myth if WDW being somekind of laisse faire utopia...

First, that scenario exists nowhere
Second, the economic model there is a lot more duct taped together than you realize or they would admit.

I'm with you on the debt issue but the reality is that if people made good financial choices there would never be a single timeshare in the history of the world. But I think it's th choices they're making, not the opportunities they have. DVC sold BCV at higher points overall than BWV with essentially standard view at preferred view prices, they sold SSR, they sold AKV. I think the other issues with Poly are as much the issue as anything, studios and nothing else viable with a ton of missed opportunity there I believe. Certainly DVD has a history of being overly optimistic on sales, see VB & HH as good examples. Once it's sold, they've made most of their profit and if someone can't pay the dues, they just take it back and sell it again. DVC essentially kept Disney afloat during the last economic downturn. If there is enough of an economic downturn that DVC isn't viable, then the whole Disney system likely isn't either. The big question with DVC is what happens after 2042, that's why I felt they could have just extended OKW for free and would have come out ahead. But now they've backed themselves into a corner on the extension issue for the 2042 resorts, we'll see what they do.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm with you on the debt issue but the reality is that if people made good financial choices there would never be a single timeshare in the history of the world. But I think it's th choices they're making, not the opportunities they have. DVC sold BCV at higher points overall than BWV with essentially standard view at preferred view prices, they sold SSR, they sold AKV. I think the other issues with Poly are as much the issue as anything, studios and nothing else viable with a ton of missed opportunity there I believe. Certainly DVD has a history of being overly optimistic on sales, see VB & HH as good examples. Once it's sold, they've made most of their profit and if someone can't pay the dues, they just take it back and sell it again. DVC essentially kept Disney afloat during the last economic downturn. If there is enough of an economic downturn that DVC isn't viable, then the whole Disney system likely isn't either. The big question with DVC is what happens after 2042, that's why I felt they could have just extended OKW for free and would have come out ahead. But now they've backed themselves into a corner on the extension issue for the 2042 resorts, we'll see what they do.

Excellent!

Well...in theory I agree that financial stress is entirely self inflicted...

But that doesn't take into account starting points - as in that behavior is almost exclusively learned from parents - and that trend supports my theory nearly 100%.


The quote above is exaclty what I'm looking at longterm. DVC did float WDW during the housing crash...it was the stable business not at 40% price slashes.

But since now they've jeopardized that role in future by Turning off the middle/lower upper class market by trying to do this "boutique/luxury" nonsense with it. Like corny set weeks. That doesn't help the point pool/bookings at all because they raise the prices and drive away those that would travel NOT on Christmas week. Self defeating. If they keep the DVC mentality from 1992-2006ish it would still sell very well and create more occupied units than the current tack. And it would still be there as a mass backstop when needed.

Look around here and in WDW when your there...many of that stable membership based is getting fairly ticked off. That wouldn't matter if there was unlimited supply...but the Brazilian tour groups aren't looking to buy copper creek and pay dues are they now? Apples and oranges in the same orchard.

The extension issue is interesting. They floated that without figuring out a whole strategy. Somebody lost their job there because it is a bit of a conundrum...

I think their plan right now is to demolish and rebuild to sell "new contracts"...that'd be my guess.

 

[Dean]

Excellent!

Well...in theory I agree that financial stress is entirely self inflicted...

But that doesn't take into account starting points - as in that behavior is almost exclusively learned from parents - and that trend supports my theory nearly 100%.


The quote above is exaclty what I'm looking at longterm. DVC did float WDW during the housing crash...it was the stable business not at 40% price slashes.

But since now they've jeopardized that role in future by Turning off the middle/lower upper class market by trying to do this "boutique/luxury" nonsense with it. Like corny set weeks. That doesn't help the point pool/bookings at all because they raise the prices and drive away those that would travel NOT on Christmas week. Self defeating. If they keep the DVC mentality from 1992-2006ish it would still sell very well and create more occupied units than the current tack. And it would still be there as a mass backstop when needed.

Look around here and in WDW when your there...many of that stable membership based is getting fairly ticked off. That wouldn't matter if there was unlimited supply...but the Brazilian tour groups aren't looking to buy copper creek and pay dues are they now? Apples and oranges in the same orchard.

The extension issue is interesting. They floated that without figuring out a whole strategy. Somebody lost their job there because it is a bit of a conundrum...

I think their plan right now is to demolish and rebuild to sell "new contracts"...that'd be my guess.

I don't know their plan, I doubt the do either for certain. I don't think the membership as a whole is upset and even on the boards, its likely a small % and if you seperate out the entitlement crowd, its even less. I think we have a different take on the financial situation. IMO its about choices not opportunities. Certainly they are learning less good habits overall from their parents than did their parents before them but once you're an adult, you have to take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming others. I see timeshares worth pennies sold for thousands of $$$ every day so I don't think the system is collapsing, they may have to adjust their strategy at some point but they leave so any sales opportunities on the table, I think they'll be fine. IMO the set week is one of the best options and anyone buying resale would be foolish not to buy one if it came close to the number of points needed even if it wasn't the perfect week for them. I feel its usually more important than getting multiple smaller contracts.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Disney parks rely on a mass, middle class clientele to function/generate profits.

Ever walk around Disneyland? The clientele is not taking the chopper over from their Malibu beach house...it's very "this is what we spend our disposable on".

WDW is bigger but very much the same.

Simply put: there aren't 60,000,000 souls on this planet with enough money and the right mentality for them to continue with this price policy. Even in DVC.

It doesn't exist. You outprice the core...it's going to be a precipitous drop.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I don't know their plan, I doubt the do either for certain. I don't think the membership as a whole is upset and even on the boards, its likely a small % and if you seperate out the entitlement crowd, its even less. I think we have a different take on the financial situation. IMO its about choices not opportunities. Certainly they are learning less good habits overall from their parents than did their parents before them but once you're an adult, you have to take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming others. I see timeshares worth pennies sold for thousands of $$$ every day so I don't think the system is collapsing, they may have to adjust their strategy at some point but they leave so any sales opportunities on the table, I think they'll be fine. IMO the set week is one of the best options and anyone buying resale would be foolish not to buy one if it came close to the number of points needed even if it wasn't the perfect week for them. I feel its usually more important than getting multiple smaller contracts.

Set weeks are tacky timeshare...by the way...it's not what DVC was designed to do.

I cringe the few times I've heard "our week" mentioned on property.

There's a place for that: myrtle beach.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

it's not what DVC was designed to do.

DVC was "designed" 25 years ago and is changing over time. This may offend you, but it's how businesses in general operate. You received your contracted real estate interest at a specific property. Others can contract for a fixed week at another, and the only way it truly impacts you is to make it harder for you to switch at 7 months -- which is not a guaranteed benefit anyway.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

DVC was "designed" 25 years ago and is changing over time. This may offend you, but it's how businesses in general operate. You received your contracted real estate interest at a specific property. Others can contract for a fixed week at another, and the only way it truly impacts you is to make it harder for you to switch at 7 months -- which is not a guaranteed benefit anyway.

DVC was designed (in not guessing I've heard it internally from DVC designers) to ensure repeat, dependable business and generate high profit, ancillary spending.

Now...that definitely can change as you've pointed out.

But this may offend you...but if the "new" model is cash up front timeshare condos where the price is chasing the clouds of the "market price"...it's going to fail.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

DVC was "designed" 25 years ago and is changing over time. This may offend you, but it's how businesses in general operate. You received your contracted real estate interest at a specific property. Others can contract for a fixed week at another, and the only way it truly impacts you is to make it harder for you to switch at 7 months -- which is not a guaranteed benefit anyway.

Disney was one of the leaders as I understand it in not having weeks. And most others have implemented similar programs. I think there are far more people that don't always travel at the same time than do and I also think that adding a fixed week system is detrimental to the points owners in that it ties up inventory that might later be released.

One of the biggest arguments against walking is holding nights that you never intend to use. In some cases the same could be said about fixed week buyers. But in general I've always disagreed with the way that Disney did it - ie requiring 10% more points to be purchased and then giving back all that 10% if one cancelled the fixed week. Instead a premium in points price was what I expected when they originally announced the fixed weeks. DVC would have gained by charging more and having those other points to still sell and there would not be the idea of "if you're buying such and such amount of points then buy a fixed week even if you never use it".

 

[Dean]

Disney parks rely on a mass, middle class clientele to function/generate profits.

Ever walk around Disneyland? The clientele is not taking the chopper over from their Malibu beach house...it's very "this is what we spend our disposable on".

WDW is bigger but very much the same.

Simply put: there aren't 60,000,000 souls on this planet with enough money and the right mentality for them to continue with this price policy. Even in DVC.

It doesn't exist. You outprice the core...it's going to be a precipitous drop.

If that happens maybe but there are no indications there there yet and there are LOTS of things they can do if they need to sell timeshares if things get tougher. Obviously there would be a limit but there's no indication they've reached it yet and I think DVC members and potential members have proven that, as a group, they are sheep to slaughter.

Set weeks are tacky timeshare...by the way...it's not what DVC was designed to do.

I cringe the few times I've heard "our week" mentioned on property.

There's a place for that: myrtle beach.

We'll have to disagree. There are advantages to the member to both systems. For fixed weeks it's called getting what time you want, for fixed units, it's about view, location and sometimes, villa type. While the points system allows some flexibility, it also presents some challenges. The reality is the main reason that systems like points is they can sell each and every point like it's Xmas or Easter. Marriott has certain weeks at certain locations where they only sell fixed weeks or a very limited seasonable options for floating weeks. That allows one to guarantee that time but usually at a price. It sounds like you don't have much knowledge or experience in the rest of the timeshare world, there are lots of options and possibilities. DVC wasn't the first points system and it wasn't the first points system in the US and in reality it probably isn't the best either but it is the best on property at WDW which is where it's benefit and claim to fame lies. DVC was designed to do one thing and one thing only, make money for Disney, and really on both ends from sales to usage. Also, once a given point is sold it's not their problem anymore, it's someone else's. It's this elitist attitude that bothers the rest of the timeshare world. The reality is simply that DVC is just a nice timeshares and side by side, really just an also ran in many ways compared to other top timeshares. Yet resale prices are higher than most and they're able to sell with a fairly hands off approach.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It would be a mistake to believe I have any interest in timeshares beyond DVC. I don't. I know there are many models and some are very nice (I'm quite familiar with Marriott)...but only the design of DVC was of interest because it is almost completely interchangeable/flexible.

Never was interested in "my week"...frankly life is too short/unpredictable for that.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Disney was one of the leaders as I understand it in not having weeks. And most others have implemented similar programs. I think there are far more people that don't always travel at the same time than do and I also think that adding a fixed week system is detrimental to the points owners in that it ties up inventory that might later be released.

One of the biggest arguments against walking is holding nights that you never intend to use. In some cases the same could be said about fixed week buyers. But in general I've always disagreed with the way that Disney did it - ie requiring 10% more points to be purchased and then giving back all that 10% if one cancelled the fixed week. Instead a premium in points price was what I expected when they originally announced the fixed weeks. DVC would have gained by charging more and having those other points to still sell and there would not be the idea of "if you're buying such and such amount of points then buy a fixed week even if you never use it".

Yep