Question for experienced small dog people re: lap guarding

[Pea-n-Me]

Do any of you have a small dog who sits on your lap but is not "lap aggressive"? Does such a thing exist? (Sorry, I have only had large dogs!)

We came close to adopting a small mixed breed dog recently. We were in a room at the shelter with the manager and the two dogs - our German Shepherd and the new dog. All went really well until I held the small dog on my lap and my Shepherd came near - and the mix bit her in the face! Twice!

The manager said it wasn't a good fit because the small dog would get worse with this once she got comfortable in our home, and it wasn't fair to our Shepherd to be bit all the time. We thought about working to train the dog out of it, but it would be hard as we'd like to have a lap dog, and our GSD will be 9 next month, so we don't want to make her twilight years unpleasant.

BTW, this dog was only about 4 months old, and was part Chihuahua and part terrier. Very sweet aside from this.

 

[roxysmum123]

From what I've seen, it gets worse. BUT that's taking peoples word that they're doing the work I've told them to do to fix it. Most of the time, I don't think they're putting in the training. It could probably be trained out, but honestly why risk it? If it isn't, it wouldn't be fair to your existing furbaby to have a crotchety dog come in and take it's place. I remember a lot of your dog related posts though, and I think if anyone has the determination and experience in dealing with dogs to know what hard work it'll be to fix it's you.....if you're up for it, go for it.

 

[roxysmum123]

I realize "take its place" is probably not the best wording... but you know what I mean right?

 

[LisaR]

DH and I were large dog people (mostly Labs) for most of our lives. A few years ago we became the owners of a 13 pound Miniature Schnauzer. OMG! She is lucky she is so cute because she is a royal pain in the you know where! She is VERY protective. She barks and growls at anyone that comes near us, including people walking their Rottweilers on the other side of the street. We have been to every training class offered and have even hired personal trainers. Every trainer has told us the same thing, "Small dogs, especially certain breeds like Schnauzers, are extremely protective." Our Labs would have done anything to protect us, but they didn't let a person know that unless they truly crossed the line. Our little one feels the need to let everyone and their brother know that she is here to defend us. She is apparently unaware of the fact that a bad guy could punt her across the room and another dog could eat her in one bite. She is like Scrappy Do!

 

[Tozzie]

Do any of you have a small dog who sits on your lap but is not "lap aggressive"? Does such a thing exist? (Sorry, I have only had large dogs!)

We came close to adopting a small mixed breed dog recently. We were in a room at the shelter with the manager and the two dogs - our German Shepherd and the new dog. All went really well until I held the small dog on my lap and my Shepherd came near - and the mix bit her in the face! Twice!

The manager said it wasn't a good fit because the small dog would get worse with this once she got comfortable in our home, and it wasn't fair to our Shepherd to be bit all the time. We thought about working to train the dog out of it, but it would be hard as we'd like to have a lap dog, and our GSD will be 9 next month, so we don't want to make her twilight years unpleasant.

BTW, this dog was only about 4 months old, and was part Chihuahua and part terrier. Very sweet aside from this.

I have two pure breed shepherds and then I rescued a small yorkie mix from the streets at work 3 years ago. I will tell you the little one thinks he runs the house. He bites at them, sometimes he get their ear or tail but he doens't hurt them and not when they are near me usually when they are laying quietly and he wants to annoy, wait i mean play with them. However if I lay on the couch he will jump up and lay at the end but if one of the shepherds comes near me he runs up get on my stomach and chest and then bats my arm to try and stop me from petting them.

With all of this , he still loves, and i mean abolutley loves my larger shepherd, she lays down and then he lays down on top of her legs or curled up next to her he is really funny.

We had a little dog growing up that used to do that to my dad, she wouldn't let him near my mother and if he tried to kiss her the dog would go bannanas we used to laugh at it

i personally think if the small dog is only 4 months old it could be trained not to do that.

i am going to post a picture of the small dog and the shepherd and you can see the relationship.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

From what I've seen, it gets worse. BUT that's taking peoples word that they're doing the work I've told them to do to fix it. Most of the time, I don't think they're putting in the training. It could probably be trained out, but honestly why risk it? If it isn't, it wouldn't be fair to your existing furbaby to have a crotchety dog come in and take it's place. I remember a lot of your dog related posts though, and I think if anyone has the determination and experience in dealing with dogs to know what hard work it'll be to fix it's you.....if you're up for it, go for it.

I realize "take its place" is probably not the best wording... but you know what I mean right?

Yeah, I know what you mean. And thanks.

I really struggled with the decision, figuring I could probably train her out of it. (And the manager, after we talked, felt it, too, though ultimately agreed with our decision.) But I just worried about my GSD in the meantime. She was reactive to dogs most of her life and I worked so hard with her. She's actually an amazing dog today and I couldn't have been prouder of her with this dog - not only when she was being bitten, but when she wasn't. She was really gentle with the dog, and the dog wasn't afraid of her. (I guess she had been very afraid with another dog in a family that was also considering adopting her, so that didn't work out, either.) I guess my fear was that it would be an ongoing struggle because we'd love to have a lap dog and so it would be hard to constantly fight that battle after the years-long battle we've been fighting appears to finally be over. I'm ready for a break! I look at how peaceful my girl is now and I'd hate to take that away from her, although I feel there would be some positives for her, too. I just don't want her bitten - or bullied - all the time. It just got me wondering whether this is an issue for most small dogs - ones that like to sit on your lap.

Oh, and btw, roxy, what do you recommend people do to fix this problem?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

DH and I were large dog people (mostly Labs) for most of our lives. A few years ago we became the owners of a 13 pound Miniature Schnauzer. OMG! She is lucky she is so cute because she is a royal pain in the you know where! She is VERY protective. She barks and growls at anyone that comes near us, including people walking their Rottweilers on the other side of the street. We have been to every training class offered and have even hired personal trainers. Every trainer has told us the same thing, "Small dogs, especially certain breeds like Schnauzers, are extremely protective." Our Labs would have done anything to protect us, but they didn't let a person know that unless they truly crossed the line. Our little one feels the need to let everyone and their brother know that she is here to defend us. She is apparently unaware of the fact that a bad guy could punt her across the room and another dog could eat her in one bite. She is like Scrappy Do!

So what type of dog would you get next time?

I have two pure breed shepherds and then I rescued a small yorkie mix from the streets at work 3 years ago. I will tell you the little one thinks he runs the house. He bites at them, sometimes he get their ear or tail but he doens't hurt them and not when they are near me usually when they are laying quietly and he wants to annoy, wait i mean play with them. However if I lay on the couch he will jump up and lay at the end but if one of the shepherds comes near me he runs up get on my stomach and chest and then bats my arm to try and stop me from petting them.

With all of this , he still loves, and i mean abolutley loves my larger shepherd, she lays down and then he lays down on top of her legs or curled up next to her he is really funny.

We had a little dog growing up that used to do that to my dad, she wouldn't let him near my mother and if he tried to kiss her the dog would go bannanas we used to laugh at it

i personally think if the small dog is only 4 months old it could be trained not to do that.

i am going to post a picture of the small dog and the shepherd and you can see the relationship.

I remember your story and think I've seen the pictures - but I'd love to see them again! I think with my last two Shepherds, this would have worked, too. But this dog is just so different. She's not really a "dog dog"; she's more of a "people dog". But she does have some "dog friends and family" that she likes and is fine hanging out with, and even sleeping beside - when they're well behaved, if that makes sense. (And she loves our little hamster.) I don't think she'd really enjoy having a bossy, snippy dog around, especially since she's expected to behave, and she's getting older now. We were all sad leaving the shelter, but I'm glad it happened there and not when we got home.

 

[LisaR]

So what type of dog would you get next time?

.

We love dogs. We'd take in anything that made its way to our doorstep. She is a really good dog. Hilarious and fun. But there is a big difference between a large dog and small dog. Everyone I have ever known with a small dog says they are territorial.

 

[horseshowmom]

My poodle is totally fine with our two big dogs, no jealousy at all (LOVES them, if fact), but he does have an issue with the cats! He doesn't want the cat in my lap at all and will move around the chair/couch to try to stay between me and the cat. When he does it, I get on to him and make him stop, but he would continue the behavior if I let him. He definitely considers himself to be in charge of the cat patrol.

 

[wdwmom0f3]

My poodle is totally fine with our two big dogs, no jealousy at all (LOVES them, if fact), but he does have an issue with the cats! He doesn't want the cat in my lap at all and will move around the chair/couch to try to stay between me and the cat. When he does it, I get on to him and make him stop, but he would continue the behavior if I let him. He definitely considers himself to be in charge of the cat patrol.

My poodle is the same way! She is fine with other dogs, but she is also our cat patrol. We have an outside cat and Libby will bark like crazy when she looks out and sees the cat. If we ever let the cat in she will sit and stare at her for hours.

 

[Tozzie]

So what type of dog would you get next time?


I remember your story and think I've seen the pictures - but I'd love to see them again! I think with my last two Shepherds, this would have worked, too. But this dog is just so different. She's not really a "dog dog"; she's more of a "people dog". But she does have some "dog friends and family" that she likes and is fine hanging out with, and even sleeping beside - when they're well behaved, if that makes sense. (And she loves our little hamster.) I don't think she'd really enjoy having a bossy, snippy dog around, especially since she's expected to behave, and she's getting older now. We were all sad leaving the shelter, but I'm glad it happened there and not when we got home.

I understand, my shepherd was not my first dog in the house when I got her and she was also 3 when I brought the little dog into the house. The little dog can get annoying, and once or twice she has smacked him with her paw, he looks to me to help him but I won't as he isn't hurt and needs to learn a lesson so I don't intervene. i also understand all dogs are different and only you know your dog and what is best for your dog.

As for the pictures, photobucket is not cooperating at the moment put I will post the picture as soon as I can

 

[roxysmum123]

Oh, and btw, roxy, what do you recommend people do to fix this problem?

Operant conditioning - negative punishment. Dogs on your lap and tenses up, snarls, snaps, any of the above and dog is either immediately removed from your lap, you leave the room, or dog is removed from the room. You have to have pretty spot on timing though, and there's always the risk that the dog starts to see the other stimulus (other dog in your case) as the reason for the correction and acts out more. Generally though, consistency and timing have shown this to be pretty effective.

And before anyone rails me for saying "negative punishment", in operant conditioning, negative punishment is removing something desirable not adding something negative.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Training aside this dog is not a fit and you darn well know it Pea.

I find with little dogs, they are picked up which immediately puts them higher on the pack order than a dog with 4 feet on the ground.

IF you are looking for a "lap dog" you have to find one that meshes with your GSD personality.

Since you mention you have WORKED HARD with your GSD, that "personality" is still there and the little dog "saw it".

Now obviously YOU did not "see" it but from the behavior you saw it is "there".

You know what I am saying....

Now you know my issues with my dog and let me tell you, you can train them and use tools, however the basic personality is "there" when faced with an animal that is a "trigger".

------------
As a side note since this is about dog aggression, using the pinch collar for walks has made it possible for us to walk Butters without a muzzle. He has actually made some "doggy friends" with the neighbors through the fence, but man you introduce KEELA which is our neighbors DD's dog that they babysit sometimes and they go at it. Good news is they are responding to corrections, but that took awhile.

 

[jrmasm]

Operant conditioning - negative punishment. Dogs on your lap and tenses up, snarls, snaps, any of the above and dog is either immediately removed from your lap, you leave the room, or dog is removed from the room. You have to have pretty spot on timing though, and there's always the risk that the dog starts to see the other stimulus (other dog in your case) as the reason for the correction and acts out more. Generally though, consistency and timing have shown this to be pretty effective.

And before anyone rails me for saying "negative punishment", in operant conditioning, negative punishment is removing something desirable not adding something negative.

This.

And in my experience it's pretty easy to fix. We adopted a terrier that would growl and snap if another doog approached when she was on someone's lap. She immediately got dumped on the floor when she did it. The behavior stopped pretty quickly. Other than an occasional reminder, she's doing great with this.

 

[gillep]

How small of a dog do you want? I have a beagle and he is a pure lap boy!!! We spend hours on the couch each week reading a book or perusing the Disboards. He even sleeps on the couch with me until I fall asleep on the weeks that my husband is out of town (he then politely asks to be put in his cage for the remainder of the night).

I love him because he is an amazing dog but also because of his size. He is small enough to fit comfortably on my lap for an extended period of time but large enough that he is still very 'dog like' if you know what I mean.

Maybe you could look at slightly larger dogs that can still snuggle on the lap but don't have as much 'small dog complex'. Just don't try to carry a beagle around in a purse or anything that could do some real damage to the spine cute and cuddly yes, light NO

 

[EeyoreEma]

I think it totally depends on the dog's personality. I have had yorkies, doxies, and shih tzu's (and big mutts). The shih tzu was not a lap dog at all, in fact he was fairly aggressive. The yorkies have not seemed to mind sharing. The doxie does NOT share well at all. We've actually had a trainer come and work with us with her, and it's gotten much better. But she is still not one that I would classify as a good sharer. I think it's all about the right fit. I love lap dogs, I love big dogs, and for the most part my small ones have gotten along well with the large ones. But you have to find the right fit for your beautiful GS!

 

[luvavacation]

A few months ago, I was on here looking for advice regarding adopting a 3 year old Australian Shepherd that turned out to be very much a "one person dog", the type that tried to bite my DD twice, bit my DH once, kept going at my 3 year old female GSD, and grabbed one of our cats and gave it the death shake (and it only dropped the cat when I held out a treat) all just to keep anyone from coming near me, the only person it attached to.

When the dogs met at the shelter, there were a couple of very subtle incidents that did make me wonder if this was a good fit, but the shelter people all reassured my family that this dog came from a home with two other dogs, it loved dogs and cats, was great with people, etc., etc. All it needed was time to get used to us and our dog. I suppose they were only going on what they had been told when the owners surrendered the dog, so I should not fault them.

The concensus here, for I did come here for advice, was that it was in the best interest of my GSD that was already in the family to return this new dog to the shelter. I even had my present dog's in-home dog trainer come to my home to try to help, but she also said to return the dog. Though it broke my heart, we did take him back. In hindsight, I only wish I had never even brought the dog home.

We tried for 9 days, and in that 9 days, the tension level in my home had risen so much, that it was like a breath of quiet air hit us all in the face the morning after the dog went back. My Shepherd girl was not shaking, her teeth weren't chattering, she wasn't looking around the corner in fear, the cats weren't cowering, etc. I am so, so sorry that we let down the other dog, but the advice here of what was best for my present dog was truly spot-on.

Pea-n-me, you mentioned that your present GSD is a bit "different". Mine is also, bad start in life, no socialization, scared of everything (but has improved with training and love, and is very different than when she came here!) but she really, really enjoys playing with her stable temperament dog buddies. She does not do well with any type of aggressive or dominant dog, and we came to the conclusion that we just could not go on what a few minutes meeting at a shelter would become when it turned into days in our home.

Plus, we were apparently black-listed from all the local shelters because we returned the dog. We did try to adopt again, but no shelter would even call us after any applications were sent.

Knowing how much our dog does like having a playmate, and the fact that her Maine Coon buddy is not going to be allowed outside to run with her, we adopted an 8 week old pure-bred German Shepherd male puppy. Best thing we ever did!

Our girl is so happy, adores her little "brother", and he adores her. They play, occasionally have a little tussle, but she isn't afraid of him, which is wonderful for us. He is 13 weeks now, and weighs 42.8 pounds, so he will be huge (she is small, only 52 pounds), but I know they will be best buddies until the end.

I am glad I put my girl's comfort over my desire to save that other dog, and I do wish that we had been able to save a shelter dog, but it was not meant to be. Perhaps, if we had been able to adopt a younger shelter dog, the outcome may have been different. I suppose, when you have a resident dog at home that does need a little extra consideration, it is harder to find the right fit.

I wish you good luck, Pea-n-me, in finding a friend for your Shepherd. I do believe you made a good choice in not taking the lap-dog, and in taking into consideration your present dog's comfort level. I know how hard it is to want to help another dog and not follow your heart, but rather following what your brain is telling you. Your present dog is lucky to have owners that want was is truly best for her!

p.s. - regarding wanting a lap dog, my little boy GSD, the one that is 42.8 pounds at 13 weeks, he desires to be a lap dog. Not sure how I feel about a dog that will eventually be over 100 pounds being a lap dog, but he sure is darn cute when he asks to cuddle in, unfortunately for him, we don't allow him on the sofa, but I don't think he will need the sofa to get in our laps, as he will be very huge very soon!

 

[MinnieGirl33]

Mom to 2 mini doxies - sisters from the same litter - and I have to agree with EyeoreEma, at times they do not share well at all. They have never been aggressive toward a human but they will, from time to time, try to jockey for position with each other. They are fabulous dogs with amazing personalities & after 15+ years with a Lab, I never thought I would be a small dog owner yet here we are 6+ years later.

We would really like to foster/rescue but I am very apprehensive about bringing anything other than a newly weened puppy into the mix.

Is your GS allowed on the furniture? If not, I might second guess the lap dog as it would instantly establish dominance. If yes, then I think maybe its just about finding the right fit which you'll know as soon as you do.

 

[angwill]

Different small dogs will act different depending on breed and temperment. I have had 3 shih tzus who were lap dogs and never lap aggressive. I now have a doxie who was fine when our shih tzu, who is now deceased, would sit on our laps. Now she is weird about people she doesn't know approaching me while on my lap till she is comfortable with them. What I do is the dog whisperer method of touching her on her back near her neck and making a noise to let her know it is not ok when she does that and she stops.

All our shih tzus and the doxie were however weird with big dogs because they all seem to think they are 10 foot tall and bullet proof and all the big dogs they have acted that way toward have backed off and been scared. My brother has two german shepards who will back off our doxie who insistes on getting close and barking at them even at their home. They look at her like she is crazy and the funny thing is the second they go toward her to play she rolls over and goes belly up letting them dominate her. She is the sweetest dog but does have a weird possessive personality. When DS has his girlfriend over she insist on getting up and pushing her body between the two of them on the couch every time. lol She does the same with DH and I. She just wants to be the center of attention and loves when my neice dresses her up in her doll clothes and plays baby with her. lol

 

[Tralliam]

I would say it depends on the breed and the specific dog. We have a poodle, supposed to be miniature but didn't grow and is toy sized. She growls and barks at anything outside (of course she's protected by a window). She loves to wrestle with our cavi that is more than twice her size. She sounds completely vicious, we call her our gremlin, but it's all playtime for her.

She's also really good with the cat, many times the cat will be sitting on my wife and the poodle will just curl up at her feet. Of course the cat wants nothing to do with the dog, she's better than a silly canine.

We did get her as a puppy, so that may be part of it too.