Question for Atheists

[Uncle Remus]

Question: did adding this make you feel better?

 

[Uncle Remus]

If I were you, I would move.

I've seen none of that behavior.

I've only his opposers making those accusations and it just makes them look grasping and even hysterical.

Amen!

 

[mkingdomlvr]

If I were you, I would move.

I've seen none of that behavior.

I've only his opposers making those accusations and it just makes them look grasping and even hysterical.

Probably because you live up in the much better educated North.

We have great weather down here, but let's face it-our education system leaves a bit to be desired.

I have no problem believing that you have not had the experiences I have, why do you assume that because you haven't seen these people, they don't exist?

 

[BillSears]

Would it be the same if a Muslim was in power? A Budhist? To me, Obama could believe that Aliens created us or that Santa was real, but as long as he does what I believe he is capable of doing, I wouldn't twinge one bit!

I do agree that a person in power has no right to force their beliefs upon anyone, but I do belief they are entitled to their own beliefs.

And I should say that I am a Christian, DH is agnostic.

Actually yes it would. I'm not trying to offend anyone here but I think those who believe in a higher power think differently then I do. In some ways I consider it a bit insane. Believing in ghosts, witchcraft, gods or God all seem odd to me.

 

[lacrosse_lady72]

I'm ready for the religious debate.

 

[Pigeon]

It doesn't exactly offend me, but I do wish we could leave mythology out of politics. I kind of feel the way BillSears does. If he believes in the magical skydaddy, what else does he believe in.

But I think he's much more capable of keeping his own superstitious beliefs to himself and not wanting to force them down everyone's throats than the current White House occupants, so I see it as an improvement in that regard.

 

[Holly]

Probably because you live up in the much better educated North.

We have great weather down here, but let's face it-our education system leaves a bit to be desired.

I have no problem believing that you have not had the experiences I have, why do you assume that because you haven't seen these people, they don't exist?

Yes, which also explains why I'm an atheist.

I just call 'em as I see 'em, and I need to see to believe.


Ok, now I'm just being a brat. I think I need to come down and spend some time thawing out in your weather.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I'm ready for the religious debate.

Not on this thread-it would be inappropriate given the title.

 

[lacrosse_lady72]

Not on this thread-it would be inappropriate given the title.

Hey.... I just call 'em as I see 'em

 

[smartestnumber5]

Would it be the same if a Muslim was in power? A Budhist? To me, Obama could believe that Aliens created us or that Santa was real, but as long as he does what I believe he is capable of doing, I wouldn't twinge one bit!

I do agree that a person in power has no right to force their beliefs upon anyone, but I do belief they are entitled to their own beliefs.

And I should say that I am a Christian, DH is agnostic.

Well I would definitely twinge if Obama started ending speeches with "and let the big green Martians bless us."

I agree that actions matter more than words, but I do think words still matter and yes it does bother me that politicians feel the need to end speeches with these types of statements. I don't think it's a matter of them having the right to their beliefs--of course they have that. But I don't see why they need to announce them after every speech. (What makes those beliefs special? What if Obama started saying after every speech "And let us all hope that the Cowboys win the superbowl this year." Or "long live my alma mater, Princeton University" or "I think my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world" or "I wish I could give all of you a piece of the best pizza in the world from Pizzaria XYZ"? Yeah they're his beliefs and he has every right to them--but why in the world would he think it was appropriate to tell the country about them after every speech?)

What bothers me most, though, is that I know that if I were in Obama's position I could not end my speeches with the corollary for my religious beliefs. I can't imagine the uproar if a politician finished a speech by saying, "And I hope for the best for the world. Given that there are no supernatural beings to bring about good things for us, it is up to us alone to do so." My guess is that lots of politicians actually are atheists or more generally non-religious and actively hid it to get where they are; they probably end the speeches that way because it's what their people tell them to do. (Statistically I believe it's something like close to 20% of the U.S. is non-religious or agnostic/atheist. Those numbers are significantly higher when you look at the most educated and higher income groups, which politicians generally fall into. Given that, it seems extremely doubtful that all the politicians who act as if they are religious actually are.)

I think you're bringing up other religions is interesting because I think the same thing is true of less popular and less well known religions. I went to an Obama event during the campaign and they had religious folks representing the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish faiths who did an opening blessing/prayer type thing. My thought was "So is this supposed to be inclusive--what about everybody else? You're telling me you couldn't call up the UU and ask for someone to do a blessing which didn't assume the existence of a supernatural being. There was no answer at the Buddhist Temple? Wiccans were unwilling to participate? Hindus all stayed home?" My guess is they didn't bother to invite any of those people because praying to the Goddess or having blessings which imply that there is no higher being aren't going to sit well with the masses.

 

[NMAmy]

I agree that actions matter more than words, but I do think words still matter and yes it does bother me that politicians feel the need to end speeches with these types of statements.

I agree. It bothers me when Obama says it, it bothered me when Bush said it, it bothered me when Clinton said it, and on and on. It seems to be the expected end to a speech so that's what politicians say.

While I kind of roll my eyes no matter who is saying it, I know they say it because a majority of their constituents like it. As long as I don't have to say it, then I can ignore it.

I don't think it matters who was elected, I'd still hear it at the end of every speech so what's the difference?

 

[piney]

Well I would definitely twinge if Obama started ending speeches with "and let the big green Martians bless us."

I agree that actions matter more than words, but I do think words still matter and yes it does bother me that politicians feel the need to end speeches with these types of statements. I don't think it's a matter of them having the right to their beliefs--of course they have that. But I don't see why they need to announce them after every speech. (What makes those beliefs special? What if Obama started saying after every speech "And let us all hope that the Cowboys win the superbowl this year." Or "long live my alma mater, Princeton University" or "I think my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world" or "I wish I could give all of you a piece of the best pizza in the world from Pizzaria XYZ"? Yeah they're his beliefs and he has every right to them--but why in the world would he think it was appropriate to tell the country about them after every speech?)

What bothers me most, though, is that I know that if I were in Obama's position I could not end my speeches with the corollary for my religious beliefs. I can't imagine the uproar if a politician finished a speech by saying, "And I hope for the best for the world. Given that there are no supernatural beings to bring about good things for us, it is up to us alone to do so." My guess is that lots of politicians actually are atheists or more generally non-religious and actively hid it to get where they are; they probably end the speeches that way because it's what their people tell them to do. (Statistically I believe it's something like close to 20% of the U.S. is non-religious or agnostic/atheist. Those numbers are significantly higher when you look at the most educated and higher income groups, which politicians generally fall into. Given that, it seems extremely doubtful that all the politicians who act as if they are religious actually are.)

I think you're bringing up other religions is interesting because I think the same thing is true of less popular and less well known religions. I went to an Obama event during the campaign and they had religious folks representing the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish faiths who did an opening blessing/prayer type thing. My thought was "So is this supposed to be inclusive--what about everybody else? You're telling me you couldn't call up the UU and ask for someone to do a blessing which didn't assume the existence of a supernatural being. There was no answer at the Buddhist Temple? Wiccans were unwilling to participate? Hindus all stayed home?" My guess is they didn't bother to invite any of those people because praying to the Goddess or having blessings which imply that there is no higher being aren't going to sit well with the masses.

Thank you for a clear, honest answer to my question.

 

[bumbershoot]

No just hostile toward people who try to shove their religion down my throat. Oh! and those who think they have the market cornered on goodness because they go to church every Sunday.

So I take it you've met my stepfather?

He's made some seriously rotten and rude decisions the last 9 years, decisions someone with a solid sense of "what is truly right in this situation, taking everyone's feelings into account", because he "prayed" about something (and got the conveniently self-serving answer!).

Would it be the same if a Muslim was in power? A Budhist? To me, Obama could believe that Aliens created us or that Santa was real, but as long as he does what I believe he is capable of doing, I wouldn't twinge one bit!

If he talked about Allah it would be the same feeling as the word God.

A Buddhist most likely wouldn't say anything like that, though. So I think we can leave them out.

I've only seen his opposers making those accusations and it just makes them look grasping and even hysterical.

Agreed. I have a few rabid Obama haters that are friends, and the things they say and put on their facebook (these are long-time IRL friends, but we keep in touch through FB) astonish me. They are far more vehement about things than I've seen just about any Obama lover do/say. And I know a few nearly rabid Obama supporters too, by the way. I myself am middle of the road.

Well I would definitely twinge if Obama started ending speeches with "and let the big green Martians bless us."

I agree that actions matter more than words, but I do think words still matter and yes it does bother me that politicians feel the need to end speeches with these types of statements. I don't think it's a matter of them having the right to their beliefs--of course they have that. But I don't see why they need to announce them after every speech. (What makes those beliefs special? What if Obama started saying after every speech "And let us all hope that the Cowboys win the superbowl this year." Or "long live my alma mater, Princeton University" or "I think my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world" or "I wish I could give all of you a piece of the best pizza in the world from Pizzaria XYZ"? Yeah they're his beliefs and he has every right to them--but why in the world would he think it was appropriate to tell the country about them after every speech?)

What bothers me most, though, is that I know that if I were in Obama's position I could not end my speeches with the corollary for my religious beliefs. I can't imagine the uproar if a politician finished a speech by saying, "And I hope for the best for the world. Given that there are no supernatural beings to bring about good things for us, it is up to us alone to do so."

I think you're bringing up other religions is interesting because I think the same thing is true of less popular and less well known religions. I went to an Obama event during the campaign and they had religious folks representing the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish faiths who did an opening blessing/prayer type thing. My thought was "So is this supposed to be inclusive--what about everybody else? You're telling me you couldn't call up the UU and ask for someone to do a blessing which didn't assume the existence of a supernatural being. There was no answer at the Buddhist Temple? Wiccans were unwilling to participate? Hindus all stayed home?" My guess is they didn't bother to invite any of those people because praying to the Goddess or having blessings which imply that there is no higher being aren't going to sit well with the masses.

Those are all very very good points! Thanks for that.

 

[Strangeite]

Probably because you live up in the much better educated North.

I live in the less well educated Commonwealth of Kentucky and I have never met a single Obama supporter that has been critical of religion. However, I know many devout atheists that were die-hard McCain supporters.

 

[HSMndLKfan92]

It doesn't phase me.
I still say "under God" in the pledge.

 

[GeorgeG]

Well, it didn't take long for this to get off-topic and a little nasty, to boot!

I'm an atheist. When Obama, or any other person ends something with "God bless...." I understand that they are doing so with good intentions, even if they may not really mean it, which is sometimes the case. I feel it's become very trendy to make such reference and do get a bit concerned that it could imply that those of us who don't believe in God aren't good Americans. That is very far from the truth. I am as good an American as anyone and better than most.

I suppose we could ask if Obama did not end with that statement, would that be such a big deal? Not to me, and it would a refreshing change. But, I believe those who are religiously inclined tend to make a bigger issue out of it than we atheists and agnostics do.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Well, it didn't take long for this to get off-topic and a little nasty, to boot!

I'm an atheist. When Obama, or any other person ends something with "God bless...." I understand that they are doing so with good intentions, even if they may not really mean it, which is sometimes the case. I feel it's become very trendy to make such reference and do get a bit concerned that it could imply that those of us who don't believe in God aren't good Americans. That is very far from the truth. I am as good an American as anyone and better than most.

I suppose we could ask if Obama did not end with that statement, would that be such a big deal? Not to me, and it would a refreshing change. But, I believe those who are religiously inclined tend to make a bigger issue out of it than we atheists and agnostics do.

Now, this is just this Christian's opinion, but I would rather politicians NOT use God Bless America unless it really means something to them. If they honestly don't believe-then I would rather they said they didn't believe and didn't use the phrase just to ingratiate themselves with folks like me.

 

[Uncle Remus]

If Obama hadn't said God bless America, this thread would have a different title reflectin' that he's not a Christian and it would be 188 pages long.

 

[Holly]

Now, this is just this Christian's opinion, but I would rather politicians NOT use God Bless America unless it really means something to them. If they honestly don't believe-then I would rather they said they didn't believe and didn't use the phrase just to ingratiate themselves with folks like me.

I hate to derail, but I really agree with this, even as an atheist.

Keith Ellison got a lot of flack for swearing in on the Quran and so many people were insistent that he needed to be sworn in with a Bible. I remember wondering why anyone would want him to swear in on a Christian book when he's a Muslim? Shouldn't people swear on something that's meaningful to them?

 

[ford family]

It doesn't phase me.
I still say "under God" in the pledge.

It doesn't faze me.
Sorry for the correction, it's just a phase I'm going through!

ford family