Question about how CMs load standby vs FP folks

[BostonRob]

I wish there was a cookie icon, so I could award you with the "You actually understood it!" Cookie Award...

Even I have to rewrite it sometime so I can remember what I was thinking...

I'm never getting a cookie, am I?

 

[vicki_c]

I'm never getting a cookie, am I?

No cookies for you! (sort of like the Soup Nazi)

 

[ChuckGA]

Assuming the Fastpass line empties periodically (and if all is running well, I believe it should),

You must not have been to WDW recently as the FP queue never empties. There are always people waiting or will be within 10 seconds as they are constantly trickling in. Obviously there are not enough FP users to fill the ride 100% of the time but once the FP windows are in full swing (around 11am to noon) there isn't a minute window where no FP users are waiting on all the big rides. My estimate from our recent week long trip is that FPs account for almost 50% of the ride slots on most rides and is probably over 50% with the assumption that not all FP will be used. Also there was an observable increase in FP riders in the last few hours of the day to where the FP line was about twice as long as it was during the day.

 

[doconeill]

You must not have been to WDW recently as the FP queue never empties. There are always people waiting or will be within 10 seconds as they are constantly trickling in. Obviously there are not enough FP users to fill the ride 100% of the time but once the FP windows are in full swing (around 11am to noon) there isn't a minute window where no FP users are waiting on all the big rides. My estimate from our recent week long trip is that FPs account for almost 50% of the ride slots on most rides and is probably over 50% with the assumption that not all FP will be used. Also there was an observable increase in FP riders in the last few hours of the day to where the FP line was about twice as long as it was during the day.

Actually, I have, and I have observed from both the FP and standby sides that the FP line usually DOES empty unless there were extenuating circumstances. Not on every cycle, but often enough. Test Track, as I already have said, is an exception.

Those are at least my observations. Yours may vary. But I believe it is SUPPOSED to empty. If it doesn't, then as time goes on the FP line will get longer and longer because they are giving out too many Fastpasses until Fastpass becomes ineffective.

 

[ChuckGA]

Actually, I have, and I have observed from both the FP and standby sides that the FP line usually DOES empty unless there were extenuating circumstances. Not on every cycle, but often enough. Test Track, as I already have said, is an exception.

Define "empty" as in how long must no one be standing there to be considered empty or how few and still considered empty. Obviously since they are not handing out 100% of the ride slots they can keep loading FP riders until there is no one ready to immediately load but 30 seconds later there are 5+ people standing there waiting.

Observed from the week of 6/19-6/27.
RnRC : Always 20+ people waiting to get in line for the next studio preshow.
ToT: Right library dedicated to FP line and rarely would stand-by riders be used to fill it. If a tower broke then right side for FP riders and about half of the left library.
TSM: Always a line back to to 3D glasses and always stopped the FP line to switch back to stand-by before all FP riders were let in.
BTMRR: Sometimes they would dedicate one side to FP and other to stand-by. Other times they would switch back and forth. There were always 30+ people somewhere in the FP cattle corral but may be spread way out as they had quite a long walk from entrance and used a few switchbacks.
Splash: Almost always 30+ people in the FP queue waiting. You still got on within a few minutes so it was fast because there isn't a second waiting area like BTMRR.
Buzz: Didn't do this one as much but every time they kept letting in FP riders until there was a gap in the line so stand-by was waiting several minutes at times. Within another 2 minutes there was a sizeable queue of FP riders again and there was always someone somewhere in the FP queue walking up to the merge point.
Soarin' : Long lines waiting for the next cycle and didn't empty before switching back to stand-by.
Test Track : Always a group waiting for next pre-show and it appeared one was dedicated to FP. I didn't do this enough to be sure.
Mission Space! : Never did FP as the stand-by was < 20 minutes but it looked like FP was always a walk-on to the final queue so that one actually emptied for minutes at a time.

I didn't use FP at AK but twice so I don't know about those rides. We also did Fantasyland during early EMH or really late EMH so I don't know what FP was like there. Pooh at 10pm still had several cars worth of FP riders waiting but stand-by was about 20 minutes. Peter Pan was 70 minutes at that same time.

 

[doconeill]

Define "empty" as in how long must no one be standing there to be considered empty or how few and still considered empty. Obviously since they are not handing out 100% of the ride slots they can keep loading FP riders until there is no one ready to immediately load but 30 seconds later there are 5+ people standing there waiting.

"Empty" is to the point that there is not one at the immediate front of the FP line, so that excess boarding continues from the Standby line.

My last observations were one month ago, and more extensively in late April, but both times were busier than the several times before that we went. Probably not as busy in the last few weeks though - but how busy it is shouldn't affect the total number of Fastpasses given out for an attraction.

TSM is still the "darling E-ticket" ride, and they are still probably working out the kinks. But if the lines are backing up to the glasses, they can't let anyone else in - that is the merge point. As stated, they will allow some standby riders in even with a line with the FP people...but the FP line in general should NOT be maintained for very long, or at least maintained to be no more than a few minutes wait. TSM i problematic because it is slow loading relative to the popularity. And the merge point is quite a ways from the loading area.

My observations at Soarin' is that the FP line USUALLY empties between cycles, but there is a bit of a wait before they let you through. Although usually we only go there in the morning.

TOT in early June had a 45 minute standby wait, but there was definitely no dedication of the FP line to a particular library. FP users were arriving sporadically (which should be the normal case).

I guess I would generally consider "empty" also as being less than the total load of a single ride cycle. So if there are "always" 30 people in the FP line, but the load is 40, then all 30 of the people waiting get in, plus 10 standby, and it is fine of 30 more FP users show up for the next cycle. If the FP line exceeds the load, and that continues, then the line just gets longer and longer, and that is broken. That CAN happen if there were maintenance issues earlier, because all the slots given out during the closure now need to spread out over the remaining time, and if the closure is significant, that can exceed the load rate. But again, maintenance issues do not factor in to the theory. If Disney takes those into account, they need to reduce the default FP issue rate in anticipation of an issue, or dynamically reduce the issue rate once the closure occurs (and I'm not sure that is done normally, although I do think they can opt to close the FP kiosks all together if its going to be down for an excessive amount of time).

 

[doconeill]

I'm never getting a cookie, am I?

Maybe for DIS Fantasy Football this season (are you in? I didn't get an email from you...)

 

[allyphoe]

Some real aberrations have been reported. In one cas (at Kilimanjaro Safari) reported here a year or so ago, apparently the CM was told "right line" and "left line" as opposed to fastpass line and standby line. Facing the crowd, one often gets "right" and "left" reversed and what was reported was that the Fastpass line was hopelessly backed up while standby riders were overtaking like crazy.

When we were there last, the KS merge CM was letting the standby folks walk through unhindered, while carefully scrutinizing each FP, with the same result.

 

[ChuckGA]

My last observations were one month ago, and more extensively in late April, but both times were busier than the several times before that we went. Probably not as busy in the last few weeks though - but how busy it is shouldn't affect the total number of Fastpasses given out for an attraction.

Why would you make the assumption that the FP percentage doesn't vary based upon overall crowd conditions such as Spring Break, Summer, and off-season? It makes perfect sense to me to vary the FP percentage. In the off-season when lines are shorter anyway and there are fewer people to get FPs, there would be fewer FPs handed out. Also the rides themselves will not be operating at full capacity. Even the belt-drive rides have a speed control. If all the rides are 20-30 minute waits, why would I spend 20 minutes traversing the park to get a FP? I could have used those 20 minutes standing in line so I would only do it during a down time and the result would be fewer FastPasses.

During the crowded times if the FP percentage is too low then they could be out of FastPasses before 10am. They would hand out more because it is less likely that all the FPs went to a small percentage getting 4 or more during the day because each person would have to wait close the the 2 hours before being allowed to get another one. There will generally be just enough time and FastPasses for most who use the system to get one for each of the big three in the park.

 

[doconeill]

Why would you make the assumption that the FP percentage doesn't vary based upon overall crowd conditions such as Spring Break, Summer, and off-season? It makes perfect sense to me to vary the FP percentage. In the off-season when lines are shorter anyway and there are fewer people to get FPs, there would be fewer FPs handed out. Also the rides themselves will not be operating at full capacity. Even the belt-drive rides have a speed control. If all the rides are 20-30 minute waits, why would I spend 20 minutes traversing the park to get a FP? I could have used those 20 minutes standing in line so I would only do it during a down time and the result would be fewer FastPasses.

During the crowded times if the FP percentage is too low then they could be out of FastPasses before 10am. They would hand out more because it is less likely that all the FPs went to a small percentage getting 4 or more during the day because each person would have to wait close the the 2 hours before being allowed to get another one. There will generally be just enough time and FastPasses for most who use the system to get one for each of the big three in the park.

The FP system is self-correcting to a certain point. If the parks are not very busy, then the FPs may not be taken up very rapidly, yes. But the FP return time never drops to less than 20 minutes from the current time. If that happens, then the FPs that could have been issued during that interval are "lost" - so essentially, less FPs are given out in that case.

But there isn't much reason to actually adjust the FP issue rate if the attraction's load rate doesn't change. If they do change the THRC via speed controls, number of available vehicles, etc. then they SHOULD be adjusting the FP issue rate to compensate. But I don't see a logical reason to reduce it otherwise. If it is a case of the standby lines NEVER getting long for the crowd level, they'd be better served by not offering Fastpass at all that day.

I will admit that I do not know for certain that WDW does NOT adjust based on crowd level. Only that there isn't a reason to that I can come up with.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...The 80:20 rule seems a bit much. That implies that they are giving out Fastpasses at a rate equivalent to 80% of the load rate, which seems awfully high. Not impossible, but it just seems that way from observation. It also implies that 80% of guests must be using Fastpass, and I REALLY don't see that...

Are you referring to the pass thru rate? If so, keep in mind that this would not mean that 80% of the day's riders used FP, as the rides stay open well pas the time that FP stations remain open. For the last few hours each night, all riders are stand-by...

 

[doconeill]

Are you referring to the pass thru rate? If so, keep in mind that this would not mean that 80% of the day's riders used FP, as the rides stay open well pas the time that FP stations remain open. For the last few hours each night, all riders are stand-by...

I think you have that backwards. For the first 30-60 minutes (depending where they set the start of the FP return), all riders are Standby. The Fastpasses return window runs up to the regular park closing time. That is, if park close is at 10pm, you will be able to get 9pm-10pm return times. I actually forget if they carry over beyond that (i.e., 9:05pm-10:00pm, etc.) for a short time.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I think you have that backwards. For the first 30-60 minutes (depending where they set the start of the FP return), all riders are Standby. The Fastpasses return window run up to the regular park closing time. That is, if park close is at 10pm, you will be able to get 9pm-10pm return times. I actually forget if they carry over beyond that (i.e., 9:05pm-10:00pm, etc.) for a short time.

In my experience, the FP lines are empty the last hour every day, too - and the rest of the evening if there are late EMH.

So, if a park is open for 13 hours (9am - 10pm) and 2 of those hours have almost no FP riders (first and last) then the numbers wouldn't be 80:20 for the entire day, even with an 80:20 ratio used for most of the day. They would be about 67:33. If you include late EMH, they are almost 50:50...

 

[bradk]

actually, the current time can and has reached the FP return window before, although this is never an ideal situation (i know it used to happen a bit with star tours for example). managers are supposed to reduce the # of FPs issued per window on slower days (if they opt to even use the machines) or CMs will play catch-up by manually issuing FPs and advancing the window. they often do this when trying to counter-balance sudden influxes of FPs

 

[doconeill]

actually, the current time can and has reached the FP return window before, although this is never an ideal situation (i know it used to happen a bit with star tours for example). managers are supposed to reduce the # of FPs issued per window on slower days (if they opt to even use the machines) or CMs will play catch-up by manually issuing FPs and advancing the window. they often do this when trying to counter-balance sudden influxes of FPs

Hmmm...I was pretty sure that it automatically stays X minutes (with X being something like 20 or 30) ahead of the current time. I saw the return time clock advance without anyone actually getting Fastpasses...if it was allowed to reach current time, then Fastpasses become "immediate" and Fastpass itself becomes kinda useless.

It's somewhat rare now that they even allow it to get close...they seem more willing to shut down Fastpass. Of course, like everything else things change.

Tomorrow, they will enforce the Fastpass return window, but the window will be listed as "NOW to WHENEVER"...

 

[seashoreCM]

The last several fastpasses issued for the day have park closing as their "expiration time" and as a result their "valid window" can be less than one hour. When the return time gets to about a half hour prior to park closing the machines turn themselves off.

 

[seashoreCM]

A reasonable balance might consist of pushing back the return time to be at least 45 minutes from the fastpass issuance time even if not that many fastpasses had been issued. Meanwhile if the return time would be more than an hour from issuance time then fastpasses are issued in sufficient quantity to take 80% of the ride throughput. This could be done automatically.

 

[razzery]

The ratio at tower is 80-20. If there is no fastpass, obviously standby will go ahead.