Priority Booking - Owners vs Rented Points

[TinkAgainU]

No doubt I'm "poking the bear" here, but just asking out of curiosity - has there never been a priority for owners (ie: booking and arriving for a reservation) under their own name over bookings pretty obviously just to "rent out" the points? It seems a little sad that owners cannot get rentals even at the 11 month mark in their Home Resorts... so are people guaranteed they can rent their points for profit forever?

I'm asking partially because I see Wyndham Bonnet Creek had just that issue with renters being denied rooms at checkin when Wyndham seemed to be pulling the plug on rentals of points by owners with multiple contracts (presumably to increase Wyndham's direct sales to renters - who I'm sure were Not angry at Wyndham at that point (sarcasm).

Do some or all of the Disney Resorts have verbage in their timeshare documents guaranteeing point contracts owners the same priority whether for themselves or if they rent out their points?

P.S. on a side note, I found it pretty shady that DVC is selling direct to people without SHOWING them the limited availability of some resorts even at the 11 month mark. Had friends looking at Aulani until I showed them what a challenge it would be to get a low point resort room during school holidays...

 

[Sandisw]

While it’s frustrating for some to see spec rentals, there is nothing that prevents any owner from having to use their reservations for themselves.

The POS allows owners to book for guests and renters. The only restriction is you can not engage in a practice of renting for “commercial purposes” which is currently defined by DVC as more than 20 trips booked in the name of others over a rolling 12 month period.

Personally, I would not want to see any such change. I also believe any such change would be considered material and would not be allowed without a vote if owners.

In terms of sales practices? I think it’s on a buyer to do their homework and have a good understanding of the product which is why FL has the 10 day back out period for timeshare sales.

 

[TinkAgainU]

The POS allows owners to book for guests and renters. The only restriction is you can not engage in a practice of renting for “commercial purposes” which is currently defined by DVC as more than 20 trips booked in the name of others over a rolling 12 month period.

We didn't see the 20 trips reference, do you recall where you saw it? We only had the full Villas at Grand Californian POS version - and that one seemed to state pretty clearly that while renting of points is definitely allowed, "commercial use was expressly prohibited" and The Board could determine (within reason) what constituted a commercial "pattern of rental activity." - But did not clarify that as 20 trips etc. (Page 187 of the Membership Agreement). Sorry, I don't know how to get it to cut and paste the full text so I'm paraphrasing.

 

[Sandisw]

We didn't see the 20 trips reference, do you recall where you saw it? We only had the full Villas at Grand Californian POS version - and that one seemed to state pretty clearly that while renting of points is definitely allowed, "commercial use was expressly prohibited" and The Board could determine (within reason) what constituted a commercial "pattern of rental activity." - But did not clarify that as 20 trips etc. (Page 187 of the Membership Agreement). Sorry, I don't know how to get it to cut and paste the full text so I'm paraphrasing.

I do not know where it is published, but it’s been referenced and I think it is out there somewhere. Or that is what people have been told when they inquired.

But all POS documents are pretty much the same. Renting can happen but not for commercial purposes and as you say, those rules are up to DVC to define that.

That is why it would be extremely difficult to make that definition much than it is because if it’s too restrictive then it could be seen as a violation of our right to rent reservations.

 

[Huskerpaul]

I think DVC cares less about renters than other timeshare companies. They probably care more that all the rooms are used by guests eating WDW food and going to the Parks. Who knows, the spending profile of renters might even be more advantageous to the Mouse than that of owners.

 

[Disney_escape]

No doubt I'm "poking the bear" here, but just asking out of curiosity - has there never been a priority for owners (ie: booking and arriving for a reservation) under their own name over bookings pretty obviously just to "rent out" the points? It seems a little sad that owners cannot get rentals even at the 11 month mark in their Home Resorts... so are people guaranteed they can rent their points for profit forever?

I'm asking partially because I see Wyndham Bonnet Creek had just that issue with renters being denied rooms at checkin when Wyndham seemed to be pulling the plug on rentals of points by owners with multiple contracts (presumably to increase Wyndham's direct sales to renters - who I'm sure were Not angry at Wyndham at that point (sarcasm).

Do some or all of the Disney Resorts have verbage in their contracts guaranteeing them priority whether for themselves or if they rent out their points?

P.S. on a side note, I found it pretty shady that DVC is selling direct to people without SHOWING them the limited availability of some resorts even at the 11 month mark. Had friends looking at Aulani until I showed them what a challenge it would be to get a low point resort room during school holidays...

To be fair it is hard to get low point (low cost) accommodations during school holidays with virtually any vacation destination, popular beaches, ski resorts, etc - those are always taken by the early planners.

 

[Dizzydizney]

I got curious, as I’ve seen the “20 trips” referenced here a number of times regarding renting out your points. I pulled a contract out from a 1997 direct purchase at BWV and a 2019 contract from a direct purchase at RIV. I see something regarding renting on the 1997 purchase, but nothing about 20 trips. I can’t find anything regarding renting on the 2019 contract. Should probably look again in the morning as I’m really curious now. Could have sworn I saw that 20 trips…but maybe in another contract. If anyone can point me to a page number or certain document, that would be helpful.
I have my own opinion about renting for profit. Would probably poke the bear too.

 

[CarolMN]

We didn't see the 20 trips reference, do you recall where you saw it?

I do not know where it is published, but it’s been referenced and I think it is out there somewhere. Or that is what people have been told when they inquired.

AFAIK, there is no official reference. 20 reservations made for guests supposedly triggers an audit to determine if commercial renting is occurring. This is based on several posts reporting receiving a letter with the 20 reservation trigger. IIRC, those posts were made several years ago.

As we all know, availability is limited, and reservations are made on a "first come first served" basis. All owners are equal at 11 months. There is no way to tell the difference between an owner making a reservation for a friend/family member and and an owner making a reservation for a rental customer.

I personally wish there was a way to prevent spec renting of popular times & villas at the 11 month window without collateral damage or giving some owners more bookng rights than others. But there is not, AFAIK.

At one time, the DIS DVC Rent/Transfer Board did not accept posts offering confirmed reservations with a check in date more than 30 days away. (This policy was put in place due to feedback from posters back in 2010 - 2011). While that is no longer the case, those who want to offer confirmed reservations more than 31 days away must pay a fee.

Spec renting was not (and still isn't) much loved by DIS DVC posters. That said, it's legal. All owners have the same opportunity to book when the 11 month window opens. Snooze, you lose.

 

[sndral]

The warning letters went out in 2006, the POS was amended in 2007 to include the more than 20 times language. https://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-p...commercial-renting-limitations-amended-to-pos

 

[TinkAgainU]

All owners have the same opportunity to book when the 11 month window opens. Snooze, you lose.

Haha, quite literally for the west coast people - Florida's 8am booking time, is 5am for California, and 3am for Hawaii. Not sure if you'd have to do that every day for weeks to "walk" a reservation to get it ... holy moly.

 

[Dizzydizney]

Just found a reference to renting, but kind of obscure. Number 6 on product understanding checklist 2019, direct purchase RIV: you acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of making a financial gain.
still have not found anything about “20“ rentals. Will check my 2009 contracts tomorrow.

 

[Sandisw]

Just found a reference to renting, but kind of obscure. Number 6 on product understanding checklist 2019, direct purchase RIV: you acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of making a financial gain.
still have not found anything about “20“ rentals. Will check my 2009 contracts tomorrow.

There is a link above that discuses some of that language. But here is the specific info from RIV POS…section 7 d. It is generic in the sense as it doesn’t even mention commercial renting. But, just that one should not expect to be able to rent and that one would be competing with Disney.

 

[sethschroeder]

Wyndham Bonnet Creek had just that issue with renters being denied rooms at checkin

Article for this?

What if I booked 5 rooms for all of my family? Something has to be more to this story than a couple bookings from someone.

 

[Dizzydizney]

@Sandisw I did not see that in my RIV paperwork, but my eyes were tired. The other link is not an official DVC site. I don’t recall getting that letter from DVC, but that would have been a long time ago.
@sethschroeder I remember having a discussion with a Wyndham owner in one of the resort pools and that renting thing was mentioned. It seemed like a major crackdown on renting for profit.

 

[CarolMN]

@Sandisw I did not see that in my RIV paperwork, but my eyes were tired. The other link is not an official DVC site. I don’t recall getting that letter from DVC, but that would have been a long time ago.
@sethschroeder I remember having a discussion with a Wyndham owner in one of the resort pools and that renting thing was mentioned. It seemed like a major crackdown on renting for profit.

Interesting article on Wyndham & Renting:

Is Wyndham Taking Away Owner's Rights?

Article is from 2021, but comments continue to be posted. Last one was from October 2022.

DVC is not Wyndham. I don't think they will ever make these kind of changes, and do not think the POS or MSPOS would allow it. However, IANAL.

 

[TinkAgainU]

Here is one disboards link to the Wyndham Bonnet Creek renter cancellations discussions. There are more ... https://www.disboards.com/threads/wyndham-bonnet-creek-reservation-canceled.3895041/

 

[RoseGold]

Who knows, the spending profile of renters might even be more advantageous to the Mouse than that of owners.

Mouse knows, or they already would have changed it. Make no mistake, they could make renting very difficult if they felt like it.

Spec reservations and renting are alive and well, just not on DIS.

 

[Sandisw]

@Sandisw I did not see that in my RIV paperwork, but my eyes were tired. The other link is not an official DVC site. I don’t recall getting that letter from DVC, but that would have been a long time ago.
@sethschroeder I remember having a discussion with a Wyndham owner in one of the resort pools and that renting thing was mentioned. It seemed like a major crackdown on renting for profit.

I don’t think the renting for commercial purposes guidelines is there and Maybe that language has since been removed.

In the end, they can make it what they want it to be but I think the RIV language is pretty clear. They simply want owners to know that buying to make a profit off renting is not a reason to buy.

The cap on number of points that one can own also provides a limit. Again, the POS is pretty clear we can rent so any attempt to make it so restrictive could cause a problem, and TBH, I don’t think they see it as such.

 

[Mle8308]

And I would think having the opportunity to rent points to others would be somewhat of a "selling point" (maybe not the exact words I'm looking for) for owners. Knowing you can rent your points if for some reason you can't use them, is a benefit, IMHO. I would hesitate to buy any timeshare, points or otherwise, if I were not able to rent them out - not necessarily for profit, but to at least break even.

 

[TinkAgainU]

In a Perfect World it might just be nice for there to be something like 11 month priority for Owners and designated Family, 10 months Home Resort rentals, 7 months for all. But in a perfect world, maybe walking reservations would not exist either (I know, still poking the bear lol).