Prepping to get kid into Gifted & Talented school/class

[golfgal]

Normally I would have agreed with you but I'm finding out that this is not true. I know a 5 year old who does 2nd grade math and also reads at 2nd grade level but scored low on the G&T test because he couldn't follow the proctor's directions. I also know plenty of kids who scored near-perfect on the G&T test but drop out of the elite programs because of the stress and competition. I thought it was black & white. It isn't.

Secondly, the best and brightest students prep for tests (SAT, MCAT, LSAT).

Third, the issue isn't passing the test. The real issues is quality of life if you get accepted. How will a child handle it.

A kindergartner doing 2nd grade level work is a bright child but it does not make them gifted and this is where people get confused with the G/T programs. I know plenty of kindergartners that were reading chapter books (2nd grade or beyond), it really isn't all that astonishing. Now, a kindergartner doing complex algebra, that would be gifted.

 

[NY Disney fan]

There are three types of parents:

1.) Normal

2.) Ambitious

3.) New York City Neurotic - this is what I'm becoming.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

A kindergartner doing 2nd grade level work is a bright child but it does not make them gifted and this is where people get confused with the G/T programs. I know plenty of kindergartners that were reading chapter books (2nd grade or beyond), it really isn't all that astonishing. Now, a kindergartner doing complex algebra, that would be gifted.

Very good points! I was an advanced reader as a child, but not everyone in the gifted program with me could read at my level. Just like there were kids doing advanced math in my program, and I couldn't even BEGIN to understand it. It wasn't about "smarts" though, I later discovered.

The one thing we all shared was a certain level of critical and creative thinking. Our projects involved playing a game with the Stock Market. Planning and creating a board game, things of that nature. This type of critical thinking is not something you can prep, farm, or cram for!

The real problem, that saddens me, though, is that they singled us out for this program based on our grades initially, and then tested us. I really think that there were plenty more kids who weren't pulling the grades, but would have excelled in our program. Unfortunately the way they went about choosing left those kids out.

 

[Longsx3]

As others have said if your child truly belongs in a G&T program prepping should not be necessary and honestly if it were me I would want to know what my childs true abilities are not how good the instructor I hired was.

 

[declansdad]

Prepping for tests such as these is simply teaching to the test. It proves nothing as to the level of talent of anyone.

 

[wdwcoltsfan]

A kindergartner doing 2nd grade level work is a bright child but it does not make them gifted and this is where people get confused with the G/T programs. I know plenty of kindergartners that were reading chapter books (2nd grade or beyond), it really isn't all that astonishing. Now, a kindergartner doing complex algebra, that would be gifted.

This is very true. It's not at all uncommon to see young children excel in certain areas during early elementary, but by the time they reach middle school things start to shake out and all of sudden that child isn't head and shoulders above the rest. Sure, he/she may be good in math or reading, but they aren't gifted.


Rachel

 

[krcit]

There are three types of parents:

1.) Normal

2.) Ambitious

3.) New York City Neurotic - this is what I'm becoming.

I have 3 kids, one who is extremely bright, one who is middle of the road and one who has a learning disability and struggles. I don't really know what my point is except that it kind of seems a bit silly to have prep classes for gifted kids. Like a previous poster said, a K reading at 2cnd grade level is great but I wouldn't call it gifted. Heck, I was reading at a high school level in 2cnd grade and I am about as far from gifted as you can get

 

[Christine]

To be honest, at the lower grades (K-3) being able to be a "superperformer" and score well on a test may very well get her into a GT program. In my kids' elementary school, there were super pushy parents that almost forced their way into these early GT programs and the way to do that was through prepping and testing.

However...where we live, grade 4 is wash out grade for GT. They let many really smart kids in GT before that. At grade 4, they give some other types of tests that the parents can't really have any impact on and many kids do not make that cut. It is based on previous observation and what happens on that test that get kids in the "real" GT classes.

Also, if your kid is in a regular school and is truly gifted, the teachers are pretty good at noticing them and getting them to the right place. I think a true gifted child rarely comes along and when they do, it's noticed.

Having said all that, most kids in the early years can greatly benefit from some GT classes. My son was in them and loved them. He is very smart, but he is not gifted. But he thrived in those classes because they were very "hands on" learning and they really did a lot of "out of the box" things. I think EVERY child in the early grades can get something out of them. But, our GT classes were in the school and it didn't require any heroics to get there. If it did, I'm not sure I would done it.

 

[traviesojmt]

When my DS was in kindergarden, the teacher had to recommend your child for testing to get into the gifted program. We had just moved to Alaska and did not know anything about the program. Heck, we were stupid first time parents. We didn't even realize that it was not normal for our child to read books at 3. I definitely wouldn't have prepped him for the program. The school tested him and then called us. Alaska had a very different gifted program. There was an extensive testing program. After the school tests, you then had to see a child psychologists who administered the IQ tests and made a determination if they believed your child could handle and was ready for the gifted class. If the scores met standards, then your child was put into a gifted class with the other kids who met the standards. They had self-contained gifted classes kindergarden through 5th grade. My son was in kindergarden with a class of kids who all met the testing standards. The teachers were all certified to specifically teach gifted students and then the kids were taught on their level. For example, my son went to 3rd grade for math and was taught at 6th grade reading level.

In my personal opinion, prepping for college entrance exams is not comparable to prepping to get into pre-school or kindergarden program. I will also add that a 5 yr old who can do 2nd grade reading and math is not necessarily gifted. That would have been on the very low end of the spectrum in the program my son was at. My DD could read at a high level at 5 and was not gifted. She is very smart, but would not be considered gifted. If your child is truly gifted, the prepping will not be necessary. You really don't want to start your child by pushing them further than they really are capable.

 

[allison443]

There are three types of parents:

1.) Normal

2.) Ambitious

3.) New York City Neurotic - this is what I'm becoming.

I suspected you were in NYC when I read your first post!! I live just outside the city and my brother lives there. He went through a similar situation last year. His child took the test (no prep though) and did qualify for the program. However he lives outside Manhattan (in a borough) and the logistics of the situation were quite difficult. We're talking a two hour bus ride each way in city traffic to get to school, for a five year old. My brother's family is involved in their community with sports, scouts, and they have another kid attending the local school, but that school doesn't have the G & T that the specialized schools do. It was a hard decision to make, but in the end they kept their child in the local school. They make sure she does lots of extra curricular and supplemental stuff. She does seem to be thriving!

If you really want to see "NYC Neurotic", check out urbanbaby.com. The forums have all kinds of posts about these gifted programs/school with people comparing their kids scores, etc.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[shirleyb]

My oldest was a very advanced reader - seriously, he read encyclopedias for fun when he was little, and he understood them.

I always asked about gifted programs when he was in early elementary, but in our school, it didn't start until 4th grade and I wasn't impressed with what they had, so we never pursued it.

But here's an example of how he thought in kindergarden that made him stand out. The teacher was reading a book about a mouse on top of a chimney. He raised his hand and told the teacher there's no way a mouse could survive on top of a chimney because the carbon monoxide fumes would kill it. The rest of the kids looked at him like he was a space alien. They had no clue what he was talking about.

So, you can see, what he really needed (and frankly still needs to this day) is work on his social skills. Like some of the other posters have mentioned, if a child is gifted, they will usually find their own stimulation. What they may need is to understand how to get along with the rest of the world.

 

[mjkacmom]

This is very true. It's not at all uncommon to see young children excel in certain areas during early elementary, but by the time they reach middle school things start to shake out and all of sudden that child isn't head and shoulders above the rest. Sure, he/she may be good in math or reading, but they aren't gifted.


Rachel

I find that those who started out strong become more average around 3rd/4th grade, when others catch up. My oldest breezed through the early grades, but even though she never got less than an A in the later, she really got frustrated when she didn't get concepts right away (as in full blown meltdowns). She got through it, and now realizes that everything isn't easy, and still hasn't gotten less than an A (8th grade). She is not gifted, just bright - I honestly know only a few truly gifted students, and they certainly didn't struggle with 5th grade math!

 

[Scurvy]

It's interesting to see how gifted programs work nowadays. 25 years ago, when I was placed into the gifted program, there was no "prepping" or anything like that. Heck, I don't think most parents even knew about the program. They chose some students who were excelling, took them into another room, and gave them some tests.

IMO I really think this is what's best for kids. Just let them grow up as normal, if they're smart, they'll get recognized. All of these prep classes, and other things, take away from a lot of experiences that kids need, most important of which is socialization.

That's still the way it is lots of places. And most places I'm familiar with don't even have gifted programs for kids until fourth or fifth grade.

I'm with everyone who thinks if you have to prep for the test to be considered gifted, you don't belong in the program. It does seem as though gifted programs have become sort of a status symbol for parents rather than a way to challenge kids who consistently outperform their peers and are finding the regular work too easy.

OP, in my opinion it's a mistake to try to push a four year old to prep for a test like this. Since you have reservations about it, you shouldn't do it. If your family gives you are hard time, just remind them that you are the parent and their opinion isn't as important as yours. Good luck!

 

[punkin]

I have no opinion for you OP. I think you should do what feels right to you since you are the one who knows your child best. I will say that I was driving down Northern Boulevard towards Flushing a few months ago and I was shocked at the amount of advertising there is for these "cram schools" and how early they claim to start.

They do seem to work though. Take a look at the demographics for the "specialized" science high schools in NYC and a vast majority of matriculants have gone through these cram schools at some point. Who knows what the right decision is.

 

[golfgal]

When my DS was in kindergarden, the teacher had to recommend your child for testing to get into the gifted program. We had just moved to Alaska and did not know anything about the program. Heck, we were stupid first time parents. We didn't even realize that it was not normal for our child to read books at 3. I definitely wouldn't have prepped him for the program. The school tested him and then called us. Alaska had a very different gifted program. There was an extensive testing program. After the school tests, you then had to see a child psychologists who administered the IQ tests and made a determination if they believed your child could handle and was ready for the gifted class. If the scores met standards, then your child was put into a gifted class with the other kids who met the standards. They had self-contained gifted classes kindergarden through 5th grade. My son was in kindergarden with a class of kids who all met the testing standards. The teachers were all certified to specifically teach gifted students and then the kids were taught on their level. For example, my son went to 3rd grade for math and was taught at 6th grade reading level.

In my personal opinion, prepping for college entrance exams is not comparable to prepping to get into pre-school or kindergarden program. I will also add that a 5 yr old who can do 2nd grade reading and math is not necessarily gifted. That would have been on the very low end of the spectrum in the program my son was at. My DD could read at a high level at 5 and was not gifted. She is very smart, but would not be considered gifted. If your child is truly gifted, the prepping will not be necessary. You really don't want to start your child by pushing them further than they really are capable.

This is how the testing is for the G/T program at our school. It is based more on how the child reasons and thinks then their grades. The kids aren't pulled out of class, they have specially designed assignments by the G/T director. this keeps the kids with their classmates and challenges them at the same time.

 

[Mickey's Minion]

My oldest was a very advanced reader - seriously, he read encyclopedias for fun when he was little, and he understood them.

I always asked about gifted programs when he was in early elementary, but in our school, it didn't start until 4th grade and I wasn't impressed with what they had, so we never pursued it.

But here's an example of how he thought in kindergarden that made him stand out. The teacher was reading a book about a mouse on top of a chimney. He raised his hand and told the teacher there's no way a mouse could survive on top of a chimney because the carbon monoxide fumes would kill it. The rest of the kids looked at him like he was a space alien. They had no clue what he was talking about.

So, you can see, what he really needed (and frankly still needs to this day) is work on his social skills. Like some of the other posters have mentioned, if a child is gifted, they will usually find their own stimulation. What they may need is to understand how to get along with the rest of the world.

Exactly. A gifted child is always bright, however an extremely intelligent child is not necessarily gifted.

The true gifted child has challenges such as social awareness.

For those of you who watch the Big Bang Theory, take the characters of Sheldon and Leonard. Both extremely highly intelligent characters. However, Leonard is pretty well grounded and socially appropriate, thus highly intelligent but not gifted. Sheldon's brain works differently and he just doesn't pick up on social cues, so highly intelligent and gifted.

A true gifted program works on, as a pp said, the creativity of the brain, not just academics. That is handled in the classroom with advanced classes. A true gifted program would also have a very heavy social emphasis to assist these children to be able to make long and lasting friendships with their peers.

Right now, at 4, the social experiences gained in a classroom are far more important than any push on academics. The academics will come naturally. The social experiences will not for the true gifted child.

 

[tmarquez]

Ok, I'm not being snarky here...I'm just not understanding (obviously I was never in a gifted program ). Are you saying that a kid can't be gifted if they aren't socially awkward?

This doesn't seem right. What if they are just smart and like/need the extra work, but are also a "social butterfly"?

For those of you who watch the Big Bang Theory, take the characters of Sheldon and Leonard. Both extremely highly intelligent characters. However, Leonard is pretty well grounded and socially appropriate, thus highly intelligent but not gifted. Sheldon's brain works differently and he just doesn't pick up on social cues, so highly intelligent and gifted.

A true gifted program works on, as a pp said, the creativity of the brain, not just academics. That is handled in the classroom with advanced classes. A true gifted program would also have a very heavy social emphasis to assist these children to be able to make long and lasting friendships with their peers.

 

[Magpie]

OP - I have been in your shoes, criticized by my mother for my lack of ambition, and for not using the gifts I was born with. What she didn't realize is that my ambition wasn't to make gobs of money or be a world travelling woman of means. My ambition was to get married and stay married and raise happy, healthy kids. I wanted family and security and a peaceful home, and time to write and paint - none of which my mother was ever able to achieve despite all her success and ambition.

My mother is retiring now and looking back on her life, and she's started to see the value of what I've actually achieved.

My point is - do what's right for your daughter. If she enjoys the extra-curricular work, then by all means let her do it. It won't hurt her. If she doesn't like it, or if she's dragging her feet and complaining, then don't make her. Keep her close by if you think that will make both you and her happier. Growing up is not a race. It's a time to be enjoyed and savored, both by your daughter and you. If she grows up secure and happy, she'll do very well in life, no matter what.

As for the other folks, talking about what makes a gifted kid...

* You can't do complex algebra if you've never been taught - so a kindergartner who isn't doing algebra isn't necessarily NOT gifted.

* Conversely, you can teach almost any toddler to read. So the fact that your toddler reads does NOT make them gifted.

* Being gifted isn't about performance, it's about potential, about the ability to synthesize data, and about the speed at which a child learns.

* You can be gifted in one academic area and not in another. A gifted mathematician is not necessarily a gifted reader.

* Not every gifted child loves to read. Or loves math. Or loves whatever it is you think they should love.

* A child can be both gifted AND learning disabled. (And boy, I'll tell you, that's no fun for parents and teachers!)

* Not every gifted child is ambitious or driven.

* Social skills are important, but you shouldn't try to force a child to be something they aren't. If your child is a total nerd who just wants to read The Lord of the Rings during Kindergarten recess, and couldn't care less about Dora the Explorer - let her be! And maybe think about putting her in a congregated gifted class, so she doesn't feel entirely alone.

I spent entirely too many years trying to change my daughter, and I'm pleased to say I utterly failed. Thank goodness! Because she's still a happy, nerdy, content-to-float-through-school kid, who has far more good sense than I ever did at her age.

* Watch out for cultural issues in GT classes, too. My daughter worries a lot about her classmates, because while she puts in just as much work as she likes, and consistently pulls As and Bs, many of her classmates are very, very stressed and feeling the pressure. Some cry. Some throw up. Most of the class is Asian, and many take extra prep classes. The kids in my daughter's school describe an A minus grade as an "Asian Fail" - because those are the kids who freak out over A minuses.

A few times my daughter has come home and hugged me, thanking me for not putting that kind of pressure on her.

Good luck!

 

[Mickey's Minion]

Ok, I'm not being snarky here...I'm just not understanding (obviously I was never in a gifted program ). Are you saying that a kid can't be gifted if they aren't socially awkward?

This doesn't seem right. What if they are just smart and like/need the extra work, but are also a "social butterfly"?

Socially awkward, as everything, comes in degrees. It is more that the brain actually processes information a bit differently, therefore the gifted child will tend to gravitate towards older kids and have difficulty interacting with same age peers.

So, in most cases, yes, to receive the label of gifted rather than extremely highly intelligent, there is usually the social component with it.

A child can be extremely intelligent, but not be gifted.

Schools these days have been lumping extremely intelligent children and calling them gifted, thus parents are beginning to think that they can't have a very, very intelligent child without the gifted label.

This is a chart of behavioral markers that helps explain the difference between highly intelligent vs gifted

A Bright Child:__________________________A Gifted Child:
Knows the answers________________________Asks the questions
Is interested______________________________Is very curious
Pays attention____________________________Gets involved mentally and physically
Works hard_______________________________Can be inattentive and still get good grades and test scores
Answers the questions______________________Questions the answers
Enjoys same-age peers_____________________Prefers adults or older children
Learns easily______________________________Often already knows the answers
Is self-satisfied (when gets right answer)______Is highly self-critical (perfectionists)
Is good at memorizing_______________________Is good at guessing

Notice, is says the very intelligent child is good at memorizing. Which is exactly what the tests you can prep for tests - the ability to memorize. Not a true indicator of giftedness. The behavioral markers above are personality traits and cannot be prepped for.

 

[Scurvy]

Ok, I'm not being snarky here...I'm just not understanding (obviously I was never in a gifted program ). Are you saying that a kid can't be gifted if they aren't socially awkward?

This doesn't seem right. What if they are just smart and like/need the extra work, but are also a "social butterfly"?

That certainly hasn't been my experience. (I was in a gifted program, and also have worked quite a bit with various G&T programs over the years, as well as taking some classes about them in college. Special Ed wasn't my major, though.) I've known truly gifted children who were socially awkward and had no common sense, but I've also known many others who were perfectly able to function normally in social situations. Being socially awkward is not a defining characteristic of being gifted. Gifted student do have to think differently than those who are simply highly intelligent, but that does not have make the student socially awkward.

In googling, I found this, which is apparently the federal definition of Gifted and Talented (for the purposed of NCLB): The term “gifted and talented”, when used with respect to students, children, or youth, means students, children, or youth who give evidence of high achievement capability in areas such as intellectual, creative, artistic, or leadership capacity, or in specific academic fields, and who need services or activities not ordinarily provided by the school in order to fully develop those capabilities.(Title IX, Part A, Section 9101(22), p. 544)

I do agree, however, that being able to memorize material well is not in any way an indication that a child is gifted. That's one reason I think any gifted test you can prep for is really useless. The decision to place a child in a gifted program should primarily be based on how a child thinks and how they perform on a regular basis, not how much they know or how well they can memorize information for a specific test.