Pool Access-Beach Club update

[shovan]

Beach Club Pool Access Letter writing update Post 31

I noticed on the another thread about Service dogs, that we have some very knowledgable people here on the DIS people concerning ADA law!

Does anyone know if the ADAAG recreation document has become law or is it still just guidelines?

We have written several letters to WDW, DVC, etc. concerning the accessibility of the pools at the BC/YC. We have yet to receive any "real" reply to our letter. Just that the letters are being sent through the "proper" channels.

Specifically that the guidelines state two means of access should be available with the primary access being either zero entry or a pool lift. Secondary access can be Neither of these is available at any of the BC/YC club pools. The only means of accessibility is transfer steps.

ADAAG:
15.8.2* Swimming Pools. At least two accessible means of entry shall be provided for each public use and common use swimming pool. The primary means of entry shall comply with 15.8.5 (Swimming Pool Lifts) or 15.8.6 (Sloped Entries). The secondary means of entry shall comply with one of the following: 15.8.5 (Swimming Pool Lifts), 15.8.6 (Sloped Entries), 15.8.7 (Transfer Walls), 15.8.8 (Transfer Systems), or 15.8.9 (Pool Stairs). Appendix Note

Here's a link to that section of the ADAAG:
http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm#15* RECREATION FACILITIES.

We are at a loss as to where to go from here with this. The 1st letter went out over a year ago. This was a detailed letter, factual and courteous. We actually received one call complimenting DH on letter. Every few months after long drawn out phone calls, it goes out again to another dept. But still, no true response about the contents of the letter.

Thanks any suggestions dealing with WDW on this are welcome!

 

[Cheshire Figment]

The link you have provided states that enforceable stanards have not yet been established.

And, of course, once they are in place they will apply to new construction or major rebuild.

It does appear that WDW is making the newer pools, and possibly rehabbing older ones, so they are more accessible.

 

[shovan]

The link you have provided states that enforceable stanards have not yet been established.

And, of course, once they are in place they will apply to new construction or major rebuild.

It does appear that WDW is making the newer pools, and possibly rehabbing older ones, so they are more accessible.

Yes, I hoping some knowledgeable person would have more info. on that. I'm wondering if Florida has any standards recommended or enforced?

From what I've found just online searching, it appears that all of the ADAAG is just that guidelines & not law. So I don't think we have any recourse there.
It would be nice if WDW or DVC would at least respond to our letters.

 

[OneLittleSpark]

No real knowledge on the subject here, but I just wanted to say thank you for continuing to fight on this issue, and good luck!

 

[shovan]

No real knowledge on the subject here, but I just wanted to say thank you for continuing to fight on this issue, and good luck!

Thanks! Just don't know what more we can do, other than continue to send letters.

 

[OneLittleSpark]

Sometimes I've found that if you keep sending enough emails and letters to enough people, something eventually sticks (either that or they get so sick of you writing in that they figure it will be less hassle just to sort the problem ). I've not had cause to do this with Disney, but I've done it on loads of accessibility problems in my local area, and it usually works fairly well. Make yourself so much of a nuisance that it would actually cost them more to employ people to read your letters than it would to install a pool lift .

 

[SueM in MN]

Yes, I hoping some knowledgeable person would have more info. on that. I'm wondering if Florida has any standards recommended or enforced?

From what I've found just online searching, it appears that all of the ADAAG is just that guidelines & not law. So I don't think we have any recourse there.
It would be nice if WDW or DVC would at least respond to our letters.

The Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board
(Access Board) sets the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines (the ADAAG) and the Standards for Accessible Design. The proposed guidelines get published in the Federal Register for comments, then committees meet to discuss the comments and come up with the final guidelines and standards.
Once those are final, the Department of Justice is responsible for setting up regulations that are consistent with the guidelines/standards. Once the regulations are complete, businesses must comply with them.

The Recreation guidelines were published for comment in the Federal Register and the final rule was published in the Federal Register on September 3, 2002. So that part of the process is complete. The link above is the final rule and it was effective starting Oct. 2, 2002. That would be for new construction after that date.

But, because the Department of Justice has not yet set up any regulations that include the new final rule, the enforceable standards are these from 1994, which are from the Department of Justice Enforceable Standards list.
I don't know why the Guidelines published 5 and 1/2 yrs ago are still not law, but they are not. Many companies actually follow final guidelines, even before they have to; they already know what the final guidelines will be and it's safer for them to follow the new ones. I believe WDW actually exceeded the final guidelines for the main pool at SSR, with zero entry, a pool lift and transfer steps.

Beach Club was built in late 1990, so they would not have even had to meet the older guidelines.

 

[shovan]

Sometimes I've found that if you keep sending enough emails and letters to enough people, something eventually sticks (either that or they get so sick of you writing in that they figure it will be less hassle just to sort the problem ). I've not had cause to do this with Disney, but I've done it on loads of accessibility problems in my local area, and it usually works fairly well. Make yourself so much of a nuisance that it would actually cost them more to employ people to read your letters than it would to install a pool lift .

Thanks for the tip! I guess that's what we'll have to do. Annoy the heck out of them!

The Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board
(Access Board) sets the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines (the ADAAG) and the Standards for Accessible Design. The proposed guidelines get published in the Federal Register for comments, then committees meet to discuss the comments and come up with the final guidelines and standards.
Once those are final, the Department of Justice is responsible for setting up regulations that are consistent with the guidelines/standards. Once the regulations are complete, businesses must comply with them.

The Recreation guidelines were published for comment in the Federal Register and the final rule was published in the Federal Register on September 3, 2002. So that part of the process is complete. The link above is the final rule and it was effective starting Oct. 2, 2002. That would be for new construction after that date.

But, because the Department of Justice has not yet set up any regulations that include the new final rule, the enforceable standards are these from 1994, which are from the Department of Justice Enforceable Standards list.
I don't know why the Guidelines published 5 and 1/2 yrs ago are still not law, but they are not. Many companies actually follow final guidelines, even before they have to; they already know what the final guidelines will be and it's safer for them to follow the new ones. I believe WDW actually exceeded the final guidelines for the main pool at SSR, with zero entry, a pool lift and transfer steps.

Beach Club was built in late 1990, so they would not have even had to meet the older guidelines.

Sue, Thanks so much for the correct info!!! I don't know how you always seem to have all the answers!

We sort of figured that it wasn't law yet & that even if it was it wouldn't apply to the BC. Disney has always been so on top of accessibility we were hoping that they would consider what seems to be a very easy solution to problem. They do have pool lifts at the main pool & hot tubs at SSR, I'm not sure about all of the pools there. But since they complied we the guidelines there, you would think they would be interested in bringing the older pools up to date. The type of lifts that they have at SSR would not be very difficult to install at all pools, spas, etc. Just would like to give them a little push to do it!

I think we will go on another letter sending spree & see if we ever get a reply.

 

[OneLittleSpark]

Maybe they could allow you to sponsor pool lifts, like you can paving slabs. Have a little plaque attached saying "This pool lift was sponsored by the disABILITIES board to help make your life a little easier". It would probably end up cheaper than all the postage for the letters!

 

[shovan]

Maybe they could allow you to sponsor pool lifts, like you can paving slabs. Have a little plaque attached saying "This pool lift was sponsored by the disABILITIES board to help make your life a little easier". It would probably end up cheaper than all the postage for the letters!

Funny! We will have send all those letters via email! It will cost too much in postage! Besides Disney has already gotten SOOO much of our money!!! Woo, I don't even want to think about how many pool lifts we could have purchased with all those trips to the Poly & then our DVC Beach Club purchase!

And when I start thinking about that, I just get MAD again! My husband ought to be able to get in that darn pool!!! Oh yeah, I feel a letter writing spree coming on!!

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue, Thanks so much for the correct info!!! I don't know how you always seem to have all the answers!

I have been in health care for a long time, and I was in Public Health for about 14 years. The regulations work the same for health stuff as it does for ADA stuff.

 

[mechurchlady]

Maybe they could allow you to sponsor pool lifts, like you can paving slabs. Have a little plaque attached saying "This pool lift was sponsored by the disABILITIES board to help make your life a little easier". It would probably end up cheaper than all the postage for the letters!

Great idea, lol. I think we need a thread with a list of stuff we would sponsor just to have it available. That or Randy's could start renting them out. I personally would not pay $50 a day for a pool lift but then again I still can waddle into a pool just the getting me out is the hard part.

 

[SueM in MN]

Great idea, lol. I think we need a thread with a list of stuff we would sponsor just to have it available. That or Randy's could start renting them out. I personally would not pay $50 a day for a pool lift but then again I still can waddle into a pool just the getting me out is the hard part.

That's a good idea, but wouldn't work because pool lifts need some installation. You can't just park them and use them like Hoyer lifts.

 

[shovan]

That's a good idea, but wouldn't work because pool lifts need some installation. You can't just park them and use them like Hoyer lifts.

Sue, There are actually a few portable pool lifts out there!

Here's a link to just one: http://www.aquacreek.com/portable-pro-pool-lift.htm

 

[zaksmom]

Pools are a problem for us as well. My son's favorite pool is Stormalong. But about 8 or 9 years ago it got too difficult for us. When I mentioned this to someone booking for us last fall from special reservations, she said that all the pools were going to be made assessible starting in 2008. Hadn't heard or seen anything else about this until today I saw a picture of the Carribbean Beach pool. It is being totally rebuilt. Reopening in the fall according to the caption. So maybe there is hope.
Have fun.

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue, There are actually a few portable pool lifts out there!

Here's a link to just one: http://www.aquacreek.com/portable-pro-pool-lift.htm

I did know about them, but they are kind of only portable if you also happen to have an empty pickup truck with a ramp to get it on with.

(although, if they bought one for each pool, they could probably find a place to wheel it in for storage when no CMs were manning the pool to make sure it was used correctly).

 

[SueM in MN]

Hadn't heard or seen anything else about this until today I saw a picture of the Carribbean Beach pool. It is being totally rebuilt. Reopening in the fall according to the caption. So maybe there is hope.
Have fun.

Do you have a link to the picture?
I'm interested to see what it looks like.
When they renovated the main pool at OKW, I was hoping they would do something to make it more accessible, but all they added was bump steps (unless they added a lift recently).

 

[mechurchlady]

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1698427&referrerid=93883

They have a list of pool picture construction photos.

 

[shovan]

Pools are a problem for us as well. My son's favorite pool is Stormalong. But about 8 or 9 years ago it got too difficult for us. When I mentioned this to someone booking for us last fall from special reservations, she said that all the pools were going to be made assessible starting in 2008. Hadn't heard or seen anything else about this until today I saw a picture of the Carribbean Beach pool. It is being totally rebuilt. Reopening in the fall according to the caption. So maybe there is hope.
Have fun.

Well I hope that's true. But if it were already planned & in the works, I would think someone would have responded to one of our letters. I'm glad you mentioned that SAB wasn't accessible for you. We need to make them aware that those transfer steps do not provide accessibility for many disabled persons.

 

[SueM in MN]

Well I hope that's true. But if it were already planned & in the works, I would think someone would have responded to one of our letters. I'm glad you mentioned that SAB wasn't accessible for you. We need to make them aware that those transfer steps do not provide accessibility for many disabled persons.

I still have not seen pictures that show the planned accessibility features for the pool at CBR, so I'm not sure what they are doing.
It had been hoped that the pool at OKW would be more accessible after renovation (I think it was completed in 2006), but all that was added for accessibility was a set of transfer steps. We will be going to OKW in April and I will look whether they have also added a lift, but there was not one when we were there in April 2007.