polygamist ranch in TX -- children taken -- your thoughts?

[barkley]

LIke I said before,I do have some sympathy for these women..But like I also said, it is so ingrained in them now that I fear they will never see the error of their ways, and as they are adults they can choose to go back to that life...I really fear they are lost, especially after watching them speak.. I really feel like out only chance is to try and save some of the kids.
I don't want these women prosecuted for the crimes they have let go on..I just want the children saved.

the other issue is even if individual women choose to leave, if they have other family members who remain with the group, the women know that those members will be subjected to punishment including death for the women leaving.

one of the former female members that was on larry king and nancy grace the last few nights spoke of how she observed this practice growing up in the group, and it weighed heavily on her consideration to leave. she spoke of how one of her own brothers is now dead and the police have closed the investigation (one of those towns where the police force is ingrained in the groups)-but it was made known to her that his death was due to his being subjected to a blood atonement for her sin in leaving. by virtue of these groups separating husbands from wives, children from parents in not only different buildings within a compound, but different states-there is a fear that ingrained that if one personaly chooses to leave with whatever children you can get out, your are placing your other children and family members in grave danger.

i can't imagine being faced with wanting to leave and protect the children i could get out while knowing by leaving i'm greatly more endangering those i cannot get out. i think to some extent the maternal instinct some have posted they see as lacking in these women is probably in fact very strong-there may well be the mindset wherein they believe that by staying they can do their best to prevent abuse where it has yet to happen-and guarantee that by staying their other children will not be subjected to another form.

the ones that will have the best chance among the mothers will be those who are minors and can be forced out-with time they may come to realize that what they endured was abusive and in no way how a child should be treated. in that case the group will view them as unwilling captives and their separated children in other areas will not be subjected to retailiation.

 

[Grumpy's Gal]

The age of consent in Texas is 17. The age to get married with parental approval is 16. If you are legally married at 16 then you can have sex. So since they don't have legal marriages, the men that got these 16 year olds pregnant did break the law in Texas.

Thanks for clearing that up -- I had no idea. But then my question is, are these girls LEGALLY married? If not, then it's rape, right?

I keep hearing them say "spiritually married" and that's different right? (please do not flame me, I really have no idea and I'm trying to understand.)

 

[Grumpy's Gal]

I think it will be interesting to see if the handful of adult women that chose to go to a women's shelter rather than return to the ranch will leave the sect, or return to the ranch after the courts are finished.

if they return, won't they be punished for having left?

 

[JennyMominRI]

Thanks for clearing that up -- I had no idea. But then my question is, are these girls LEGALLY married? If not, then it's rape, right?

I keep hearing them say "spiritually married" and that's different right? (please do not flame me, I really have no idea and I'm trying to understand.)

Only the very first marriage is legal..This is how they sidestep laws... The rest are spiritual marriages..Also the fact that the law does not view these as marriages allow these people to abuse the welfare system..They are *single mothers* according to the law and most recieve welfare and food stamps..
Since these are not legal marriages, even the situatios with 16YO are considered rape, by law.
It's screwed up..They are *married* in their minds when it comes to having sex with underage girls, but they are conveniently not married when it comes to collecting welfare.

 

[va32h]

Thanks for clearing that up -- I had no idea. But then my question is, are these girls LEGALLY married? If not, then it's rape, right?

I keep hearing them say "spiritually married" and that's different right? (please do not flame me, I really have no idea and I'm trying to understand.)

It's rape whenever someone is forced to submit to sexual intercourse whether the two parties are legally married or not.

Being legally married has nothing to do with rape.

The "spiritual marriages" are called such because there is no way to legally marry more than one person, period.

 

[JennyMominRI]

if they return, won't they be punished for having left?

I'm quite sure that any of the women who did not behave exactly as ordered by then men beforehand run the risk of losing their kids, being abused or reassigned to new men...or worse.

 

[chobie]

Only the very first marriage is legal..This is how they sidestep laws... The rest are spiritual marriages..Also the fact that the law does not view these as marriages allow these people to abuse the welfare system..They are *single mothers* according to the law and most recieve welfare and food stamps..
Since these are not legal marriages, even the situatios with 16YO are considered rape, by law.
It's screwed up..They are *married* in their minds when it comes to having sex with underage girls, but they are conveniently not married when it comes to collecting welfare.

I thought they divorce each wife when they take on a new one and then are legally married to the new wife, but I'm not sure.

 

[chobie]

if they return, won't they be punished for having left?

I'm sure. At this point they should probably be put into some kind of witness relocation type program.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I thought they divorce each wife when they take on a new one and then are legally married to the new wife, but I'm not sure.

I have heard of some Polygamists doing this but it's not an FDLS practice

 

[JennyMominRI]

Crematorium oven allegedly ordered for polygamist temple by Warren Jeffs


By Brent Hunsaker
ABC 4 News


Some former or expelled members of Warren Jeffs' FLDS sect recently told ABC 4 News about some disturbing projects ordered by their former leader. One of those projects called for the acquisition of a thermostat used for controlling a crematorium oven, a device so powerful and hot, it would be capable of destroying human DNA.

The knowlege of the crematorium thermostat is raising some concerns in the law enforcement community, especially when one considers a drastic and brutal doctrine within the polygamst sect.

It's called blood atonement. Warren Jeffs has been preaching it for years. Now some who have left his FLDS church say he may be ready to put into practice what he has preached.

Blood atonement as taught by Jeffs means that the atonement of Jesus Christ does not cover all sins in all circumstances. "He no longer believes in forgiveness and repentance. That's a thing of the past. It's over," said FLDS dissident Ross Chatwin.

Carolyn Jessop, another dissident, confirmed that when Warren Jeffs talks about the shedding of blood, he's not just talking about a couple drops. She said, "Your priesthood head or whoever is god to you -- for a woman that would be her husband ... your throat is slit from ear to ear."

Chatwin is worried. "There's a lot of people gone. I have no idea where they're at. Warren may be doing these blood atonements now."

Still, no one on the outside can say with any certainly what Jeffs may be doing. Not only has he scattered his faithful among several compounds, but he limits or even forbids communication. Talking to the wrong person could put a follower's eternal welfare in jeopardy.

Isaac Wyler, who has heard Jeffs preach on the subject says there are people who are willing. "I know men have asked Warren ... Men have come to him that have been kicked out and have asked for the privilege of blood atonement so they can be saved."

If and when Warren Jeffs puts his bloody teaching into practice, Carolyn Jessop knows where it will take place. Her ex-husband now runs the FLDS ranch near El Dorado, Texas. That ranch is the site of a temple -- a new concept for the polygamist sect.

"It's an actual ordinance," said Jessop of blood atonement. "It has to be performed in a temple." "There are certain crimes that are considered a 'sin unto death' that have to be paid for by blood atonement," Jessop explains. "For a woman it would be adultery or leaving your husband as I did. I've committed a 'sin unto death'. What I've done can only be paid for by blood atonement."

What's more, if she were still in the FLDS Church, Jessop says she wouldn't have a choice in the matter. She says according the FLDS doctrine, "...I belong to my husband. He has the right to make that choice for me. That's not necessarily something I can say I want or don't want. If my husband feels like that's an ordinance he wants me to have, I have no right to refuse that ordinance."

Jessop says she's staying far away from that FLDS temple in Texas.

brent@abc4.tv

 

[chobie]

I have heard of some Polygamists doing this but it's not an FDLS practice

Yes, it was that Green guy with his sister wives that did the talk show circuit a while back who did that. He also went to jail for having sex with his stepdaughter.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I thought they divorce each wife when they take on a new one and then are legally married to the new wife, but I'm not sure.

An article about the welfare fraud commited because most of these women are viewed as single..

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy5.html

 

[barkley]

Only the very first marriage is legal..This is how they sidestep laws... The rest are spiritual marriages..Also the fact that the law does not view these as marriages allow these people to abuse the welfare system..They are *single mothers* according to the law and most recieve welfare and food stamps..
Since these are not legal marriages, even the situatios with 16YO are considered rape, by law.
It's screwed up..They are *married* in their minds when it comes to having sex with underage girls, but they are conveniently not married when it comes to collecting welfare.

actualy marriage has no impact on receipt of public assistance. it's weather the bio father is in the home with the kids. that's why i suspect they have these people set up in group housing where the dad's technicaly live in separate buildings. it's still welfare fraud if they are not reporting the fathers income so it can be used for determining eligibility-but by daddy not being in the physical dwelling with mom and the kids, he can be held innocent of charges that he participated in the mother's fraudulent application-it's a minor point but i had very monogomous clients who used the identical law for the same intent

 

[JennyMominRI]

actualy marriage has no impact on receipt of public assistance. it's weather the bio father is in the home with the kids. that's why i suspect they have these people set up in group housing where the dad's technicaly live in separate buildings. it's still welfare fraud if they are not reporting the fathers income so it can be used for determining eligibility-but by daddy not being in the physical dwelling with mom and the kids, he can be held innocent of charges that he participated in the mother's fraudulent application-it's a minor point but i had very monogomous clients who used the identical law for the same intent

Correct me if I'm wrong but if these women were married or even divorced the state would try to collect funds from the husband...By stating they don't know who the father is they don't count the fathers income etc at all

 

[Grumpy's Gal]

anyone know what they do about seeing a doctor? do they not see one or do they have one on the ranch?

 

[JennyMominRI]

anyone know what they do about seeing a doctor? do they not see one or do they have one on the ranch?

From what I've read there is a doctor there and they have been known to go to the local hospital

 

[shirleyb]

Jenny,
thanks for posting the info earlier about the teenage boys. I had been wondering what happens to the boys in this compound.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Crematorium oven allegedly ordered for polygamist temple by Warren Jeffs


By Brent Hunsaker
ABC 4 News


Some former or expelled members of Warren Jeffs' FLDS sect recently told ABC 4 News about some disturbing projects ordered by their former leader. One of those projects called for the acquisition of a thermostat used for controlling a crematorium oven, a device so powerful and hot, it would be capable of destroying human DNA.

The knowlege of the crematorium thermostat is raising some concerns in the law enforcement community, especially when one considers a drastic and brutal doctrine within the polygamst sect.

It's called blood atonement. Warren Jeffs has been preaching it for years. Now some who have left his FLDS church say he may be ready to put into practice what he has preached.

Blood atonement as taught by Jeffs means that the atonement of Jesus Christ does not cover all sins in all circumstances. "He no longer believes in forgiveness and repentance. That's a thing of the past. It's over," said FLDS dissident Ross Chatwin.

Carolyn Jessop, another dissident, confirmed that when Warren Jeffs talks about the shedding of blood, he's not just talking about a couple drops. She said, "Your priesthood head or whoever is god to you -- for a woman that would be her husband ... your throat is slit from ear to ear."

Chatwin is worried. "There's a lot of people gone. I have no idea where they're at. Warren may be doing these blood atonements now."

Still, no one on the outside can say with any certainly what Jeffs may be doing. Not only has he scattered his faithful among several compounds, but he limits or even forbids communication. Talking to the wrong person could put a follower's eternal welfare in jeopardy.

Isaac Wyler, who has heard Jeffs preach on the subject says there are people who are willing. "I know men have asked Warren ... Men have come to him that have been kicked out and have asked for the privilege of blood atonement so they can be saved."

If and when Warren Jeffs puts his bloody teaching into practice, Carolyn Jessop knows where it will take place. Her ex-husband now runs the FLDS ranch near El Dorado, Texas. That ranch is the site of a temple -- a new concept for the polygamist sect.

"It's an actual ordinance," said Jessop of blood atonement. "It has to be performed in a temple." "There are certain crimes that are considered a 'sin unto death' that have to be paid for by blood atonement," Jessop explains. "For a woman it would be adultery or leaving your husband as I did. I've committed a 'sin unto death'. What I've done can only be paid for by blood atonement."

What's more, if she were still in the FLDS Church, Jessop says she wouldn't have a choice in the matter. She says according the FLDS doctrine, "...I belong to my husband. He has the right to make that choice for me. That's not necessarily something I can say I want or don't want. If my husband feels like that's an ordinance he wants me to have, I have no right to refuse that ordinance."

Jessop says she's staying far away from that FLDS temple in Texas.

brent@abc4.tv

He's MURDERING people out there?????

 

[Trish Bessette]

This whole situation truly makes me so sad for the women and children.

 

[JennyMominRI]

He's MURDERING people out there?????

I'm not quite willing to say that they are murders ,but I think it's possible as do many of the escapees..
There are many who just dissapear..Are they all going to other compounds? Are they kicked out? This group does claim blood atonement. Honestly, I don't put murder past them.

ETA, even if these stories about a crematorium are rumors, imagine the control that allows the leaders if the people of ElDorodo or CC or Hilldale believe there is or will be a crematorium... I'm sure they genuinely believe their lives are at risk...IT's a great way to keep people from leaving