polygamist ranch in TX -- children taken -- your thoughts?

[JennyMominRI]

Me too...

from the news coverage this morning there is only ONE pregnant 13 year old...and that does not prove widespread abuse to me.

There are "some pregnant 16-18 olds" but thats the age of consent.

If you go to the smoking gun, at least I think it was on there it lists the age of some of the women and the amounts of kids..It's shows testimony and things included in search warrants... There are more than a few 16 YO listed some who already have 1-2 kid..One of the children testified that there is a 16 YO girl who has 3 or maybe 4 kids.

 

[JennyMominRI]

ban all the people in a particular religion from raising children?

Hoping not to get flamed, because I really am emotionally confused about this whole thing. Part of me thinks it a good thing to take all the children away, but part of me wonders about what the effect on freedom of religion.

If there was a gated community of Athiests or agnostics down the street who passed daughters areond like chattel, kicked boys out at the age of 12, took kids away from their mothers and handed them to new mommies, Slapped babies until they cried and then held them under water until they stopped not only would we be angry but we would be calling for those mothers to be sent to prison..Somehow because these people are religious we view it differently..I'm sorry but being religious doesn't garner you special treatment or sympathy...They aren't special because of religion..They should be treated exactly the same way as anyone else

 

[maddhatir]

So are suggesting that Catholic Mothers are offering up their children to the pedophile priests?

There's a big difference between giving your 14 year old daughter willingly to a 40,50,60 year old man and what happened with the priests. Yes they are both child abuse but the polygamists agree with the abuse where as Catholics are just as disgusted by the pedophile priests as the general public.

I am just comparing the 2 "group's" abuses. I did not state mothers-

I was being OT- when I heard the story- that is what I thought of....abuse.

When the Pope and the church sweep their dirty little secrets under the rug- that is fine- and now we have everyone to him everywhere he is visiting.

I just think BOTH are wrong.

There are over 400,000 priests worldwide. You hear about a handfull and now all priests are bad.

In my County we had 2 people murdered by Harley riders. Does that mean Harley-Davidson Rider = murderer?

Just something to ponder.......................

And believe me, When DH and I go riding on our bike, or walk around with our bandanas and Harley "attire"- we get enough dirty looks! So- I do happen to ponder that all the time.

 

[chobie]

If there was a gated community of Athiests or agnostics down the street who passed daughters areond like chattel, kicked boys out at the age of 12, took kids away from their mothers and handed them to new mommies, Slapped babies until they cried and then held them under water until they stopped not only would we be angry but we would be calling for those mothers to be sent to prison..Somehow because these people are religious we view it differently..I'm sorry but being religious doesn't garner you special treatment or sympathy...They aren't special because of religion..They should be treated exactly the same way as anyone else

Well, you make a good argument. These people all live together in a compound and communally raise the children so it is more like one big family than individual families who share a common religion.

I do feel sorry for the women that were raised to believe this is the way you treat your children and this is they way you must be treated by your husband. But, maybe it is best to just stop this cycle from continuing.

It's like the women in some African nations that hold their daughters down to be mutilated -they were indoctrinated in the belief that they must do this to their daughters. They think they are harming their daughters by not doing it.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Well, you make a good argument. These people all live together in a compound and communally raise the children so it is more like one big family than individual families who share a common religion.

I do feel sorry for the women that were raised to believe this is the way you treat your children and this is they way you must be treated by your husband. But, maybe it is best to just stop this cycle from continuing.

Another issue here is that we have no idea who the mothers of most of these kids are..Many of these kids were ripped from the Hilldale/Colorado City compound 4 years ago to start Eldorado...They were handed to new mommies. SOme of these kids were even brought in from Canadian communities and handed to new families..

What would be the obligation of the state if kids in Ohio were essentially kidnapped and given to *better* families in New Mexico? Would those new parents have any legal right to those kids?
I'm guessing no.
These women and these kids belong to a few people. First and foremost they belong to Warren Jeffs..Under him each of these communities belong to a particular leader..This man can come in at any time and kick you out, take your *son* and dump him on the road..Give your daughter to a 50 YO, Give your kids to someone else..He can even take a mans wife and kids and hand them to another man.
That is an issue here...How do you determine these cases when you don't know the real parentss?
How do you send the kids that do have a Bio mother back to a community where the kids can be handed over to the highest bidder for any infraction.

Do you hand an 11 YO boy back to his mother when the odds are that a couple years later he will be dumped on the street to fend for himself?

 

[chobie]

Another issue here is that we have no idea who the mothers of most of these kids are..Many of these kids were ripped from the Hilldale/Colorado City compound 4 years ago to start Eldorado...They were handed to new mommies. SOme of these kids were even brought in from Canadian communities and handed to new families..

What would be the obligation of the state if kids in Ohio were essentially kidnapped and given to *better* families in New Mexico? Would those new parents have any legal right to those kids?
I'm guessing no.
These women and these kids belong to a few people. First and foremost they belong to Warren Jeffs..Under him each of these communities belong to a particular leader..This man can come in at any time and kick you out, take your *son* and dump him on the road..Give your daughter to a 50 YO, Give your kids to someone else..He can even take a mans wife and kids and hand them to another man.
That is an issue here...How do you determine these cases when you don't know the real parentss?
How do you send the kids that do have a Bio mother back to a community where the kids can be handed over to the highest bidder for any infraction.

Do you hand an 11 YO boy back to his mother when the odds are that a couple years later he will be dumped on the street to fend for himself?

It's a mess all right. I just hope all the kids get the counseling they need and their long term needs are taken care of.

 

[shortbun]

Me too...

from the news coverage this morning there is only ONE pregnant 13 year old...and that does not prove widespread abuse to me.

There are "some pregnant 16-18 olds" but thats the age of consent.

So you really think 16 yo girls would consent to have sex with 50yo men if they were not raised to think it the right thing to do? This is brainwashing and child abuse. I would guess that the "ONE" pregnant 13yo is "ONE" of many raped regularly. Ovulation must be happening for pregnancy to happen, ya know? And what ARE the statistics regarding childbirth and the age of the mothers? Oh, we don't have that because the children are given to the older women to raise. If it quacks, waddles, has webbed feet and is covered in down, chances are it's a duck.

 

[shortbun]

We have systems in place to deal with these issues.

Innocent until proven guilty.

So far I've heard a lot of this and that about what is going on in there, but nothing definitive to justify wrenching 400 kids from their mothers.

I do not think these kids should remain in their parents custody if there is widespread sexual abuse of kids. This whole thing is based on ONE phone call from one child which may have not even been real!

So, if a couple has a 3yo that they scald and burn with cigarettes, only THAT child should be removed from the home because there is no evidence that the others are being abused? How about witnessing the abuse of the 3yo? How about feeling helpless and wondering when it is going to happen to them? You're ok with that?

Imho, all of these children are in danger. There may be trauma attached to their removal but there is no proof that any of these lovely women are actually their mothers. The women need treatment as well but that's harder because they are so far gone that they do not realize how bizarre things are.

 

[barkley]

If there was a gated community of Athiests or agnostics down the street who passed daughters areond like chattel, kicked boys out at the age of 12, took kids away from their mothers and handed them to new mommies, Slapped babies until they cried and then held them under water until they stopped not only would we be angry but we would be calling for those mothers to be sent to prison..Somehow because these people are religious we view it differently..I'm sorry but being religious doesn't garner you special treatment or sympathy...They aren't special because of religion..They should be treated exactly the same way as anyone else

i agree, and if you look to the teachings of the lds church that these specific individuals claim to follow, there is absolutly nothing that supports underage marriages, child abuse or kicking out children based on their gender.

dh and i were talking the other night about how we would admire a person or persons who had such strong beliefs in their religion that they would, when their church opted to eliminate a basic tenant purely because of financial and political considerations (as the lds church did with pologamy-it may be claimed that it was dropped due to revelation that it was no longer appropriate, historicaly we know that it was done so because utah was being told it would not become a state unless the practice was abolished) to adhere to their religious convictions. in this case you have people practicing not what their religion preaches. there is nothing in the lds teachings that supports the allegations that have been made.

i have no issue with polygamy. moraly it's not what i would practice, but what occurs between consenting adults that is not detrimental or abusive to the participants, their children or the community is in my mind none of my buisness. i have an issue with the child abuse, child neglect, spousal abuse and spousal neglect that appears to exist in this situation. if consenting adults wish to practice polygamy there are ways in which it can be done without violating the law-and i'm feel certain that this is one of the reasons this particular sect opts for co-housing the female adults and their children apart from their husbands, it's effective in preventing substantiation of bigamy charges (no co-habitation), and it's even more effective for purposes of receipt of public assistance.

the crux of this case is not going to be based on anything that can be defended by virtue of freedom of religion-the state is not pursuing anything that deals with the manner this group worships or pursues their religious freedoms. the state is pursuing allegations of gross child abuse that has become a practice within the membership of specific flds groups (there are flds groups that operate much like the family in 'big love'-no compounds, no receipt of inappropriate public assistance, no abuse, no underage marriages-we had a church near where i went to college, very much of the middle class american 'soccer mom' ilk. the kids went to public schools, women were not relegated to subserviant roles/many were professionals-sex was restricted to consenting adults. it was for all intents and purposes-the practices of lds with the inclusion of polygamy).

i suspect that the charges that will arrise and be pursued will be-child abuse, child endangerment, rape, spousal abuse and things of this nature. then we will start to see charges of welfare fraud and non support of a child (this has been successfully used to prosecute males in groups of this type before).

 

[Grumpy's Gal]

There are "some pregnant 16-18 olds" but thats the age of consent.

found this on CNN which leads me to believe 16 is NOT the age of consent...


On Thursday, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said on CNN's "American Morning" that "the case really doesn't hinge upon that particular 16-year-old.

"It's our belief that these children who are under the age of 17 have engaged in sex with older men, which is a violation of Texas law, which is also a potential violation of the bigamy laws," he said. "So yes, we do believe we have information that will be substantiated in court that will show there has been sexual assault as well as bigamy."

 

[JennyMominRI]

i have no issue with polygamy. moraly it's not what i would practice, but what occurs between consenting adults that is not detrimental or abusive to the participants, their children or the community is in my mind none of my buisness. i have an issue with the child abuse, child neglect, spousal abuse and spousal neglect that appears to exist in this situation. if consenting adults wish to practice polygamy there are ways in which it can be done without violating the law-and i'm feel certain that this is one of the reasons this particular sect opts for co-housing the female adults and their children apart from their husbands, it's effective in preventing substantiation of bigamy charges (no co-habitation), and it's even more effective for purposes of receipt of public assistance.

the crux of this case is not going to be based on anything that can be defended by virtue of freedom of religion-the state is not pursuing anything that deals with the manner this group worships or pursues their religious freedoms. the state is pursuing allegations of gross child abuse that has become a practice within the membership of specific flds groups (there are flds groups that operate much like the family in 'big love'-no compounds, no receipt of inappropriate public assistance, no abuse, no underage marriages-we had a church near where i went to college, very much of the middle class american 'soccer mom' ilk. the kids went to public schools, women were not relegated to subserviant roles/many were professionals-sex was restricted to consenting adults. it was for all intents and purposes-the practices of lds with the inclusion of polygamy).

i suspect that the charges that will arrise and be pursued will be-child abuse, child endangerment, rape, spousal abuse and things of this nature. then we will start to see charges of welfare fraud and non support of a child (this has been successfully used to prosecute males in groups of this type before).

I agree and feel the same way..I'm not attacking the actual polygamy aspect... If adults want to have multiple relationships and they are all in agreement that's not really an issue. As they are not legally marrying more than one woman that s ot technically breaking the law....It's all of the other things mentioned above, I have problems with.
If the people on this board found out I married off my 13 YO to and old man , dropped my son off on the side of the road at 14 and regularly held my infant daughters under water to teach them not to cry I'm willing to bet you would call CPS or the police yourself..I would get no sympathy and you would want me in prison..
Somehow when religion gets added to the mix sympathy comes into the mix..I don't get it at all . If you are religious it's suddenly ok to hand your underage daughter off to be raped and to throw away your sons?

 

[mom2rb]

found this on CNN which leads me to believe 16 is NOT the age of consent...


On Thursday, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said on CNN's "American Morning" that "the case really doesn't hinge upon that particular 16-year-old.

"It's our belief that these children who are under the age of 17 have engaged in sex with older men, which is a violation of Texas law, which is also a potential violation of the bigamy laws," he said. "So yes, we do believe we have information that will be substantiated in court that will show there has been sexual assault as well as bigamy."

The age of consent in Texas is 17. The age to get married with parental approval is 16. If you are legally married at 16 then you can have sex. So since they don't have legal marriages, the men that got these 16 year olds pregnant did break the law in Texas.

 

[chobie]

I agree and feel the same way..I'm not attacking the actual polygamy aspect... If adults want to have multiple relationships and they are all in agreement that's not really an issue. As they are not legally marrying more than one woman that s ot technically breaking the law....It's all of the other things mentioned above, I have problems with.
If the people on this board found out I married off my 13 YO to and old man , dropped my son off on the side of the road at 14 and regularly held my infant daughters under water to teach them not to cry I'm willing to bet you would call CPS or the police yourself..I would get no sympathy and you would want me in prison..
Somehow when religion gets added to the mix sympathy comes into the mix..I don't get it at all . If you are religious it's suddenly ok to hand your underage daughter off to be raped and to throw away your sons?

I only have sympathy because these mothers were brainwashed to beleive they had to do this to their children because God wanted it.

No, it's not okay. They should be stopped from doing it. But if they are raised away from the rest of the world and have no concept of any other way to raise their children, then I do feel sorry for them when their kids are taken away, even while believing that taking them away is the right thing to do.

 

[mom2rb]

If the people on this board found out I married off my 13 YO to and old man , dropped my son off on the side of the road at 14 and regularly held my infant daughters under water to teach them not to cry I'm willing to bet you would call CPS or the police yourself..I would get no sympathy and you would want me in prison..
Somehow when religion gets added to the mix sympathy comes into the mix..I don't get it at all . If you are religious it's suddenly ok to hand your underage daughter off to be raped and to throw away your sons?

I am sitting here helping my 9 1/2 year-old boys with their Math. In 4 1/2 years they will be 14. It makes me want to slap those mothers. I don't think they should get their kids back. The fact that they won't tell the truth about the ages or the parentage of the kids proves it. They are more concerned about protecting the men than their kids.

 

[tiggersmom2]

I only have sympathy because these mothers were brainwashed to beleive they had to do this to their children because God wanted it.

No, it's not okay. They should be stopped from doing it. But if they are raised away from the rest of the world and have no concept of any other way to raise their children, then I do feel sorry for them when their kids are taken away, even while believing that taking them away is the right thing to do.

This is exactly the way I feel. This is what I was trying to say last night, but ended up making a muck of it, you expressed it much better than my attempt.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I only have sympathy because these mothers were brainwashed to beleive they had to do this to their children because God wanted it.

No, it's not okay. They should be stopped from doing it. But if they are raised away from the rest of the world and have no concept of any other way to raise their children, then I do feel sorry for them when their kids are taken away, even while believing that taking them away is the right thing to do.

That's how I feel too. I can't bring myself to condemn them because of the isolation and abuse they themselves were subject to.

I have learned a LOT about this group from this thread! Thanks to all of you really well informed folks who took the time to write such informative posts!!!

 

[JennyMominRI]

I only have sympathy because these mothers were brainwashed to beleive they had to do this to their children because God wanted it.

No, it's not okay. They should be stopped from doing it. But if they are raised away from the rest of the world and have no concept of any other way to raise their children, then I do feel sorry for them when their kids are taken away, even while believing that taking them away is the right thing to do.

LIke I said before,I do have some sympathy for these women..But like I also said, it is so ingrained in them now that I fear they will never see the error of their ways, and as they are adults they can choose to go back to that life...I really fear they are lost, especially after watching them speak.. I really feel like out only chance is to try and save some of the kids.
I don't want these women prosecuted for the crimes they have let go on..I just want the children saved.

 

[barkley]

I agree and feel the same way..I'm not attacking the actual polygamy aspect... If adults want to have multiple relationships and they are all in agreement that's not really an issue. As they are not legally marrying more than one woman that s ot technically breaking the law....It's all of the other things mentioned above, I have problems with.
If the people on this board found out I married off my 13 YO to and old man , dropped my son off on the side of the road at 14 and regularly held my infant daughters under water to teach them not to cry I'm willing to bet you would call CPS or the police yourself..I would get no sympathy and you would want me in prison..
Somehow when religion gets added to the mix sympathy comes into the mix..I don't get it at all . If you are religious it's suddenly ok to hand your underage daughter off to be raped and to throw away your sons?

no it's not-and i think that the guilty will learn that the courts have a history of protecting religious freedoms so long as the do not violate existing laws. the innocent will learn that when you co-exist in an environment that practices these violations, even if you do not activly facilitate them yourself-renders you suspect and open to investigation.

we had an issue in the county where i worked in social services. a group of people who engaged in illegal activities that while not the type of abuse alleged with this group-were considered to have aspects of child abuse (contributing to the delinquency of a minor). the group constantly argued in court that these practices were part of their cultural and religious practices and could honestly cite historical documentation that supported this and in their minds justified it. the courts deemed that laws pertaining to the protection of minors must be enforced across the board and that no special consideration or excusing based on cultural or religious beliefs/practices overrides. it was a constant battle for child welfare staff. there would be a call from the police about the aprehension of an entire family of children, parents would be interviewed and say that the illegal activities were part of their belief system and they had no intention of changing their practices. kids would end up in protective custody, parents would engage lawyers to defend their religious beliefs, lawyers would convince parents to cool it on the practices so they could get their kids back, 6 months later the same kids getting called into cps by the police

 

[chobie]

LIke I said before,I do have some sympathy for these women..But like I also said, it is so ingrained in them now that I fear they will never see the error of their ways, and as they are adults they can choose to go back to that life...I really fear they are lost, especially after watching them speak.. I really feel like out only chance is to try and save some of the kids.
I don't want these women prosecuted for the crimes they have let go on..I just want the children saved.

Me too.

 

[Chuck S]

I think it will be interesting to see if the handful of adult women that chose to go to a women's shelter rather than return to the ranch will leave the sect, or return to the ranch after the courts are finished.