polygamist ranch in TX -- children taken -- your thoughts?

I heard on the news today, they think some of these young girls are lying about their age so they won't get in trouble for having had a child. (Like saying they are 18 instead of 15)

Also, how do they even know who are siblings with which other children?

They're trying to get DNA profiles on everyone to sort out the family trees. The judge hasn't ruled yet. It also might expose in-breeding, if that's been going on, too.
 
They're trying to get DNA profiles on everyone to sort out the family trees. The judge hasn't ruled yet. It also might expose in-breeding, if that's been going on, too.

They are pretty much all inbreeding..


Birth defects
The Colorado City/Hildale area has the world's highest incidence of fumarase deficiency,[52] an extremely rare genetic condition which causes severe mental retardation. Geneticists attribute this to the prevalence of cousin marriage between descendants of two of the town's founders, Joseph Smith Jessup and John Yeates Barlow; one local historian reports that 75–80 percent of the double-communities' roughly 10,000 inhabitants are descended from one or both of these men[citation needed]



FTR, COlorado City/Hilldale is a the parent of ElDorado...The members of Eldorado left these 2 communities around 4 years ago to build ElDorado
 
i used to work for the welfare department who would interview clients and gave food stamps,welfare checks, disability benefits so I kind of see why they are not giving their last names or the name of their husband because:

1. if you collect welfare in texas such as food stamps and checks and you tell them you do not know who the father is, It ends there and they keep getting all the benefits but if you tell them that the father in not part of the childs life and you do not know where he is but you have his name, than they forward the file to Child support services to find him and you have to cooperate with Child support services because eventually he will start paying child support and welfare will end so that is why they keep their mouth shut. They are definitly "bleeding the government".

2. This is my theory: i think that they pregnate these young girls and hand over the child to a mature woman who in turn takes the child to welfare office to collect benefits because you do not need a Dna test to see if the child is yours, you just sign a paper stating everything you are saying is the truth.

3. besides being competition to the older men, the young boys cannot collect any long term benefits so they are ousted from the compound.

4. the more babies, the more benefits and here in texas it is very easy.

In the event the children are returned(i pray they are not), I hope they go after them for welfare fraud.
 
tonight one of the shows reported that oral swabs had been done on all the children but given the dynamics of so many people being related to each other it could be a very tedious task determining parentage. there was also a report that one of the items siezed was a safe which contained documentation about births and marriages.
 

Here's the thing I have been thinking about. If the children know what happens when they reach a certain age, what must life be like at age 10 and 11? Although I do agree that this was a radical step, taking the children, I think it was necessary. They will be traumatized by this but perhaps they will grow to understand the act as lifesaving. They have been brainwashed, obvious by the interviews with their mothers, and it will take a long time to deprogram all of them. Children in bad situations love their abusers because they have to; there is no one else. This society promotes pedaphilia. Let the grownups live as they like but they must know that their bizarre sexual and social abuse of children is at an end.
 
I find it unsettling as well.

Me too...

from the news coverage this morning there is only ONE pregnant 13 year old...and that does not prove widespread abuse to me.

There are "some pregnant 16-18 olds" but thats the age of consent.
 
Me too...

from the news coverage this morning there is only ONE pregnant 13 year old...and that does not prove widespread abuse to me.

There are "some pregnant 16-18 olds" but thats the age of consent.


Pedophiles have sex with prepubescent children. Now, it is my understanding that there is some child molestation going on as well, and those kids should be removed on a case-by-case basis. But, there is no evidence that every young child is being molested by every father there.

As far as the brain-washing, well one can argue that any indoctrination into a religion or set of beliefs by parents is brain washing.

Don't get me wrong, I find everything about this group repugnant. But at what point does allowing people to practice and indoctrinate their children into religion cross the line that we should ban all the people in a particular religion from raising children?

Hoping not to get flamed, because I really am emotionally confused about this whole thing. Part of me thinks it a good thing to take all the children away, but part of me wonders about what the effect on freedom of religion.
 
These freaks....yes, I said freaks....are hiding behind the facade of religion to perpetuate a lifestyle of polygamy involving underage girls, which is by definition, child molestation. The mothers are in it up to their necks, even if they do look like Laura Ingalls Wilder and feign innocence and ignorance while staring wide-eyed at the cameras. They are just very good at it, having had decades of intense practice......or what some would call brainwashing.

Some of these kids don't even know when they were born or who their actual biological parents are. All the better to keep "age of consent" fuzzy. They give different answers every time they are asked. They have been trained to lie and never give a straight answer. That tells me their "families" know they have something to hide and have made certain their children will be adept at the skill of hiding information, aka lying. There is NOTHING about this that passes the sniff test......no one single thing.

The mothers wail about how much the children are loved. My concern is that they are "loved" too soon by men that are old enough to be their fathers and grandfathers and are told this is God's will. How many times do we have to see this repeated by this sect/cult before we just wise up to the fact that this is their M.O.? It is what they do. It is who they are. Their mothers are as guilty as the men who molest them, because they allow it to happen. This is their chance to break ranks. If they do not take it, they deserve no mercy.

In this country, the right to religious freedom stops when it infringes on the rights of others, especially the rights of a vulnerable class such as children who are in need of the protection of society. Our duty as a society to protect these children from these molesters and the ones who brainwash them to believe it is normal (even if that includes their mothers) trumps their religious freedom. Our culture says that having sex with children and impregnating them is forbidden, not something to be glorified in the name of religion. Our law trumps their religion. Simple as.

I see right through the hand-wringing of these "mothers." They have zero protective instinct. They have already demonstrated a willingness to hand over their lambs to the slaughter. But they do put on a convincing show. Practice makes perfect. And this cult has been at it for decades. They are slick, slippery, well-financed and lawyered up. But they are still sickos in sheep's clothing.

When a father abuses/molests one of his children, if the mother refuses to keep him away from the other children, then ALL the children are kept from both of the parents. The father has not abused/molested all of them and he may never do so. Is the mother being punished for what might never even happen? No, the children are being kept from a mother who demonstrates an unwillingness to protect her children in the face of a pattern. Here, their very religion demonstrates a pattern of encouraging young girls to "spiritually marry" :sad2: older men and have their children, despite their denials to the contrary. The mothers have not put a stop to it (which might even include leaving the cult) and by failing to take such action, have shown an unwillingness to protect their daughters from sexual abuse. The state does not have to wait until each and every child is molested before they act. They don't even have to prove molestation before they remove the children. They just have to have enough cause to suspect abuse. That's enough to warrant removal and start the process. What the state looks for now is a mother who is proactive at doing what it takes to get her kids back. What they are seeing are mothers who are the dead opposite. That usually spells, "We have something to hide and /or are guilty as sin."

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, yada, yada, and has 5 underage pregnant duckling wives......it needs to be in prison.

Thank you! You speak what are in the thoughts and hearts of so many. :guilty:
 
Polygamist= religious group= child abuse

Catholic Priests= religious group= child abuse

Just something to ponder................

Horny men = using religion = for their own sexual gain

Something that happens over and over and over.
 
These freaks....yes, I said freaks....are hiding behind the facade of religion to perpetuate a lifestyle of polygamy involving underage girls, which is by definition, child molestation. The mothers are in it up to their necks, even if they do look like Laura Ingalls Wilder and feign innocence and ignorance while staring wide-eyed at the cameras. They are just very good at it, having had decades of intense practice......or what some would call brainwashing.

Some of these kids don't even know when they were born or who their actual biological parents are. All the better to keep "age of consent" fuzzy. They give different answers every time they are asked. They have been trained to lie and never give a straight answer. That tells me their "families" know they have something to hide and have made certain their children will be adept at the skill of hiding information, aka lying. There is NOTHING about this that passes the sniff test......no one single thing.

The mothers wail about how much the children are loved. My concern is that they are "loved" too soon by men that are old enough to be their fathers and grandfathers and are told this is God's will. How many times do we have to see this repeated by this sect/cult before we just wise up to the fact that this is their M.O.? It is what they do. It is who they are. Their mothers are as guilty as the men who molest them, because they allow it to happen. This is their chance to break ranks. If they do not take it, they deserve no mercy.

In this country, the right to religious freedom stops when it infringes on the rights of others, especially the rights of a vulnerable class such as children who are in need of the protection of society. Our duty as a society to protect these children from these molesters and the ones who brainwash them to believe it is normal (even if that includes their mothers) trumps their religious freedom. Our culture says that having sex with children and impregnating them is forbidden, not something to be glorified in the name of religion. Our law trumps their religion. Simple as.

I see right through the hand-wringing of these "mothers." They have zero protective instinct. They have already demonstrated a willingness to hand over their lambs to the slaughter. But they do put on a convincing show. Practice makes perfect. And this cult has been at it for decades. They are slick, slippery, well-financed and lawyered up. But they are still sickos in sheep's clothing.

When a father abuses/molests one of his children, if the mother refuses to keep him away from the other children, then ALL the children are kept from both of the parents. The father has not abused/molested all of them and he may never do so. Is the mother being punished for what might never even happen? No, the children are being kept from a mother who demonstrates an unwillingness to protect her children in the face of a pattern. Here, their very religion demonstrates a pattern of encouraging young girls to "spiritually marry" :sad2: older men and have their children, despite their denials to the contrary. The mothers have not put a stop to it (which might even include leaving the cult) and by failing to take such action, have shown an unwillingness to protect their daughters from sexual abuse. The state does not have to wait until each and every child is molested before they act. They don't even have to prove molestation before they remove the children. They just have to have enough cause to suspect abuse. That's enough to warrant removal and start the process. What the state looks for now is a mother who is proactive at doing what it takes to get her kids back. What they are seeing are mothers who are the dead opposite. That usually spells, "We have something to hide and /or are guilty as sin."

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, yada, yada, and has 5 underage pregnant duckling wives......it needs to be in prison.


AMEN...

These invisible "men" put these women out to the public so we can feel sorry for them because they KNEW that it is in our nature to pity the poor pitiful women. Where in the heck are they? They don't want us to see what they're really up to.

These bigoted slimeballs will get their due now. Hopefully the women who have enabled them will get help also. There is no excuse for what is happening to these kids and these women. Pitying them brings so progress, being angry enough to prosecute Jeffs and his male followers can help them.
 
Me too...

from the news coverage this morning there is only ONE pregnant 13 year old...and that does not prove widespread abuse to me.

There are "some pregnant 16-18 olds" but thats the age of consent.

Last night on TV several former members of this cult were talking about the sexual abuse they endured. It was amazing...

All sex does not equal pregnancy. If that were the case every woman in America would be pregnant now.
 
Producing babies for the purpose of letting old men have sex with them is disgusting. It is the ultimate pedophila...what a scummy, icky, gross thing.

I hope they through the book at ALL of them.:sad2:
 
There are over 400,000 priests worldwide. You hear about a handfull and now all priests are bad.

In my County we had 2 people murdered by Harley riders. Does that mean Harley-Davidson Rider = murderer?

Just something to ponder.......................

We've also heard about quite a few teachers lately, so now we should assume ALL teachers are having sex with their students and that their principals approve?

Please...pedophiles go where the kids are. Watch a few of those Chris Hansen shows, they come from all walks of life-married, single, young, old, and pretty much every occupation.
 
Pedophiles have sex with prepubescent children. Now, it is my understanding that there is some child molestation going on as well, and those kids should be removed on a case-by-case basis. But, there is no evidence that every young child is being molested by every father there.

As far as the brain-washing, well one can argue that any indoctrination into a religion or set of beliefs by parents is brain washing.

Don't get me wrong, I find everything about this group repugnant. But at what point does allowing people to practice and indoctrinate their children into religion cross the line that we should ban all the people in a particular religion from raising children?

Hoping not to get flamed, because I really am emotionally confused about this whole thing. Part of me thinks it a good thing to take all the children away, but part of me wonders about what the effect on freedom of religion.


I agreee with you. I think we're walking a very fine line here between protecting the kids and infringing on religious freedom.

Lots of people find this or that "lifestyle" repugnant, it doesn't mean they do not have a right to practice it.

I agree these situations need to be looked at on a case by case basis, and you cannot paint the entire group with one swath. If a family follows the rule of the law, regardless about how people feel about how they raise their kids, its their right to do so.
 
Last night on TV several former members of this cult were talking about the sexual abuse they endured. It was amazing...

All sex does not equal pregnancy. If that were the case every woman in America would be pregnant now.

We have systems in place to deal with these issues.

Innocent until proven guilty.

So far I've heard a lot of this and that about what is going on in there, but nothing definitive to justify wrenching 400 kids from their mothers.

I do not think these kids should remain in their parents custody if there is widespread sexual abuse of kids. This whole thing is based on ONE phone call from one child which may have not even been real!
 
I'm guessing some of you don't understand exactly what this group does.

The kids are 2/3 female.. Odd huh? DO you know why? The only boys there are young with a few exceptions... To ensure the older men get all the young girls the group takes boys that hit puberty and dump them on the side of the roads like trash... Where are the mothers calling for the return of their dumped sons?
Many of these people won't name the fathers. They aren't even the mothers in many cases..Many of these kids were taken from ther famililies in Colorado City and Hilldale and given to new families in El Dorado.
If the leaders don't like what you do as a man they will take your wife and kids and pass them on to another father then kick you out of the compound for life.
These people believe in Blood Atonement.. They believe that if you commit certain sins the only way to atone is through the spilling of blood..They believe murder is the way to atone for sins.
There is no comparison of this group to Catholics.


I agree with you 100%. I have a dear friend who is Mormon and would also add that they give the LDS a bad name also. She is so horiffied by all of this.
 
We have systems in place to deal with these issues.

Innocent until proven guilty.

So far I've heard a lot of this and that about what is going on in there, but nothing definitive to justify wrenching 400 kids from their mothers.

I do not think these kids should remain in their parents custody if there is widespread sexual abuse of kids. This whole thing is based on ONE phone call from one child which may have not even been real!

I would have to disagree with you (and that might be a first). This phone call was the final impetus to go in and rescue the children. This group has been watched from what I've been reading and hearing, and there are many reports from people who have been kicked out or who escaped that substantiate this. And, how many of those 16-18 year old girls are giving birth to their second or third child? How many have given birth before the age of consent? And, are they too brainwashed to admit which child/ren are theirs?

Again, we hear about the sex aspect most of all, but there is also widespread child abuse going on, not to mention the obvious issue of government assistance. Did you know that this group gets $8 back for every $1 they pay in (in the form of food stamps and welfare)? I'll try to find that link....
 
I work for children's services, and feel for everyone involved. I don't know if TX DCS works the same as mine, but I want everyone to know that it is difficult to legally remove ONE child, much less 400+!

In order for me to remove a child, there has to be a specific danger/risk to the child. I then call my supervisor, she calls her supervisor, who calls out attorney and they make a collective decision. There are laws in place that say that certain things are child abuse/neglect. The child has to be the victim of one of those specific things. I can't ask to remove on a hunch that something might happen, I can't remove on my morals or values. I can only remove if laws are being violated. If I asked to remove without having some rock solid evidence, I'd be laughed out of a job.

When the supervisors and attorney decide that I can remove, the attorney has to draw up a petition that I have to take to the judge. The judge has to sign the petition, if he doesn't think I have enough to legally remove, he doesn't sign the petition and sends the kids home.

We then start the court process.. at anytime during the preliminary (within three days of the removal here) or the adjudicatory (full hearing within 30 days of removal) the judge can (and sometimes does) send the kids home because he feels that DCS did not have enough evidence. The children will all be appointed attorneys who will watch out for the children's best interest, the just will listen to this person. If a child's attorney thinks we shouldn't have removed, you can bet that child will go home quickly.


Children's services had a bad name everywhere.. there is nothing more threatening than someone that might separate you from your child.. that is a scary thought. But I know, personally, every removal (except for one) that I have participated in was due to the decision of the parents to put their WANTS before the child's NEEDS.

I feel bad for those children, I feel bad for the DCS case workers (it is traumatic to have to take children for any reason), but I do not feel sorry for those mothers and fathers who made the choice to perpetrate against their children under the cloak of religion.
 
I posted this on the thread about Warren Jeffs but wanted to post it here too. Sorry for those who already read it!

I was born, raised and live in Utah and I had a friend growing up who was a product of polygamy and had a mother who escaped for the sake of her children avoiding it. It is a horrible practice and one that is not easy for people who don't live it to comprehend or imagine.

My friend, her 9 siblings and mother left in the middle of the night wearing only the clothes on their backs and nothing else. They had packed up some food to bring with them but only what their pockets could hold. It was and is a very sad situation for all involved. *ETA they had NO money, no one on the outside to turn to and no idea how to be normal like the rest of us. They thankfully found the right person at the right time to help them.....many are NOT that lucky*


Polygamist sects usually live in very remote or small towns where it's easier to keep law enforcement officials at bay. These groups in these small towns are now *over time* becoming more self isolating and pathological in their practice. Awhile ago FLDS boys and girls were able to "Fraternize" with each other but when Rulon Jeffs took over from 1986 until 2002 as their "prophet" he declared that way the sinful way and courting was replaced with "the placement" system where all marriages were decided by the prophet which generally was young girls married to much older already married men. This gesture became a status symbol of the men in the community who thought the more wives and children you have the more status and favor you had in the community. Also when Rulon Jeffs died at the age of 92 he had 75 wives and 65 kids. When he died his son Warren declared himself the "prophet" and essentially took on all but 2 of Rulon Jeffs wives as his own which effectively made him his own stepfather.

Most of these women and children are leading bleak, impoverished, hopeless lives.

Placement marriages not only are a detriment to girls they are also a detriment to FLDS boys who are no longer permitted to have normal interactions with girls their own age, social or otherwise. The dislocations produced by the placement system have also led to teenage boys literally being driven out of town—shipped off or assigned to two-year work-missions at businesses operated by wealthier and more powerful polygamists, with their paychecks going directly back to the church, or taken and dumped out on the street, or simply run out of town by the all-FLDS police.

The local slang term for marriageable girls is “poofers”. One day they’re living with their parents, attending school, just being teenage girls. The next day, poof, they’re gone. Marriages aren’t publicly announced or celebrated—often they’re scarcely celebrated at all—and the girls are given minimal advance notice. They just disappear into their husbands’ households: poof!

This practice/religion is scarcely distinguishable from the methods used in the modern-day slave trade. The basics start when you separate the slaves from everyone who might protect or support them. You physically abuse them so they’re frightened and disoriented. You put them in a controlling environment where they’re powerless and deprived of outside information, and make sure that they don’t have proper ID, access to transportation, or money of their own. You repeatedly tell them that this is where they belong. And then you exploit the crap out of them.

Once these girls have had babies, they’re stuck. They can’t abandon their children, and they have no more place to go than they did before. They can’t sue their “husband” for support; they were never legally married to him. They may not have a Social Security Number. They may not have a birth certificate. They have minimal education. They’ve been told all their lives that outsiders are sinful, dangerous, and malign. And everyone they know in the world keeps telling them that where they are is where they belong. So they still don’t run. And because they don’t run they have more children, often at a rate of one a year, which leaves them depressed and exhausted.

The FLDS community lives on land owned by their church, which effectively means it’s owned by their prophet. Members build their houses themselves at their own expense, but if they dissent, misbehave, or wind up on the losing side in political struggles, they’re evicted and shunned. Wives or children can be reassigned to other households.

FLDS members start companies and they use those funds to continually build up their compounds. American Tax Payers have unknowingly helped finance the Texas polygamy sect and probably all the other ones in the nation as well. The Texas group has received a nearly $1 million dollar loan with the federal government and nearly $1.2 million from military contracts. The ability of the FLDS, to operate and grow is largely dependent on huge contributions from its members and revenue from the businesses they control.

One of those businesses, NewEra Manufacturing in Las Vegas, has been awarded more than $1.2 million in federal government contracts, with most of the money coming in recent years from the Defense Department for wheel and brake components for military aircraft. A large portion of the awards were preferential no-bid or "sole source" contracts because of the company's classification as a small business.

It's a sad situation these people are put in through brainwashing or other means. It was so sad to hear my friend and her mother and siblings tell stories about what happened to them and how their lives were so controlled. They didn't have access to anything from outside like television, newspapers, magazines or other resources. Anyone from outside was feared and avoided at all costs.

It really is so sad but I for one am glad they are not letting these children back with their mothers. I'm a mother and would want my children with me as I'm sure they do but the rehab process has to start with the moms and work their way down to the kids. If the mothers aren't taught to change their outlook it won't change for their kids either IMHO.


Thank you for enlightening us :thumbsup2 ! Very sad and heartbreaking situation, and I hope for all involved, the law starts stepping in more for the women and innocent children's salvation. :guilty:
 














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