polygamist ranch in TX -- children taken -- your thoughts?

OH and did I mention that there was a bed found inside the temple so that the men could consumate the marriage to a 14 YO as soon as the vows are said .
 
These freaks....yes, I said freaks....are hiding behind the facade of religion to perpetuate a lifestyle of polygamy involving underage girls, which is by definition, child molestation. The mothers are in it up to their necks, even if they do look like Laura Ingalls Wilder and feign innocence and ignorance while staring wide-eyed at the cameras. They are just very good at it, having had decades of intense practice......or what some would call brainwashing.

Some of these kids don't even know when they were born or who their actual biological parents are. All the better to keep "age of consent" fuzzy. They give different answers every time they are asked. They have been trained to lie and never give a straight answer. That tells me their "families" know they have something to hide and have made certain their children will be adept at the skill of hiding information, aka lying. There is NOTHING about this that passes the sniff test......no one single thing.

The mothers wail about how much the children are loved. My concern is that they are "loved" too soon by men that are old enough to be their fathers and grandfathers and are told this is God's will. How many times do we have to see this repeated by this sect/cult before we just wise up to the fact that this is their M.O.? It is what they do. It is who they are. Their mothers are as guilty as the men who molest them, because they allow it to happen. This is their chance to break ranks. If they do not take it, they deserve no mercy.

In this country, the right to religious freedom stops when it infringes on the rights of others, especially the rights of a vulnerable class such as children who are in need of the protection of society. Our duty as a society to protect these children from these molesters and the ones who brainwash them to believe it is normal (even if that includes their mothers) trumps their religious freedom. Our culture says that having sex with children and impregnating them is forbidden, not something to be glorified in the name of religion. Our law trumps their religion. Simple as.

I see right through the hand-wringing of these "mothers." They have zero protective instinct. They have already demonstrated a willingness to hand over their lambs to the slaughter. But they do put on a convincing show. Practice makes perfect. And this cult has been at it for decades. They are slick, slippery, well-financed and lawyered up. But they are still sickos in sheep's clothing.

When a father abuses/molests one of his children, if the mother refuses to keep him away from the other children, then ALL the children are kept from both of the parents. The father has not abused/molested all of them and he may never do so. Is the mother being punished for what might never even happen? No, the children are being kept from a mother who demonstrates an unwillingness to protect her children in the face of a pattern. Here, their very religion demonstrates a pattern of encouraging young girls to "spiritually marry" :sad2: older men and have their children, despite their denials to the contrary. The mothers have not put a stop to it (which might even include leaving the cult) and by failing to take such action, have shown an unwillingness to protect their daughters from sexual abuse. The state does not have to wait until each and every child is molested before they act. They don't even have to prove molestation before they remove the children. They just have to have enough cause to suspect abuse. That's enough to warrant removal and start the process. What the state looks for now is a mother who is proactive at doing what it takes to get her kids back. What they are seeing are mothers who are the dead opposite. That usually spells, "We have something to hide and /or are guilty as sin."

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, yada, yada, and has 5 underage pregnant duckling wives......it needs to be in prison.
 
The mothers wail about how much the children are loved. .

Too bad they don't wail about their teenage sons who are living on the streets now for the sin of having a male sex organ.

If you don't know about this google "lost boys"
 
I have a hard time with this, I have a hard time with what was done in Waco. Both were religious at the core. I KNOW that the lifestyle is repugnant, I know that. I KNOW that these mother's must love their children, how must they feel to have them snatched from their arms?

Like I said, I know how they live is wrong in MY eyes. However, I don't advocate taking their kids, there must be a better way.
 

Go EMom!!!!!

duck.jpg
 
Remember Waco (and Ruby Ridge) were federal, ATF and FBI. This is state and child welfare services. Big difference.
 
I'm guessing some of you don't understand exactly what this group does.

The kids are 2/3 female.. Odd huh? DO you know why? The only boys there are young with a few exceptions... To ensure the older men get all the young girls the group takes boys that hit puberty and dump them on the side of the roads like trash... Where are the mothers calling for the return of their dumped sons?
Many of these people won't name the fathers. They aren't even the mothers in many cases..Many of these kids were taken from their families in Colorado City and Hilldale and given to new families in El Dorado.
If the leaders don't like what you do as a man they will take your wife and kids and pass them on to another father then kick you out of the compound for life.
These people believe in Blood Atonement.. They believe that if you commit certain sins the only way to atone is through the spilling of blood..They believe murder is the way to atone for sins.
There is no comparison of this group to Catholics.

MTE. Great, accurate post.:thumbsup2
 
The mothers are in it up to their necks, even if they do look like Laura Ingalls Wilder and feign innocence and ignorance while staring wide-eyed at the cameras. They are just very good at it, having had decades of intense practice......or what some would call brainwashing.
they deserve no mercy.

No, I don't think they are some master smooth talkers. This is their way of life. This is what they have been raised to believe is right and good from the knee. They don't have our values and don't understand why it is wrong. These women deserve compassion and mercy and their children.:sad1:
 
I have a hard time with this, I have a hard time with what was done in Waco. Both were religious at the core. I KNOW that the lifestyle is repugnant, I know that. I KNOW that these mother's must love their children, how must they feel to have them snatched from their arms?

Like I said, I know how they live is wrong in MY eyes. However, I don't advocate taking their kids, there must be a better way.

But as Jenny pointed out....and she has a very valid point....the mothers seem to have no problem kicking their sons out once they hit puberty. Having too many of them around would mess up the ratio of "young girl wives" to "old man husbands."

Just because you slap the word "religion" on something sick, that doesn't make it sacred or even respectable. As regards David Koresh's cult, my BIL flippantly pointed out that if HE were to ever start a cult, just like Koresh, one of his cardinal rules would be that only HE was allowed to have sex with all the women. "I can see why Koresh thought that was a brilliant idea. I can perhaps even see why the women might have fallen for it. But what I can't figure out for the life of me is why the other MEN bought into it. At that point, he'd have lost me as a cultie." :rotfl2: :rotfl: :lmao:
 
No, I don't think they are some master smooth talkers. This is their way of life. This is what they have been raised to believe is right and good from the knee. They don't have our values and don't understand why it is wrong. These women deserve compassion and mercy and their children.:sad1:

They do deserve compassion..They lived the same lives their kids are living now..They are so abused and brainwashed that I fear it's too late for them..It's the ultimate Stockholm syndrome... They however, as adults have the right to choose to live like this, right or wrong... The kids don't have a choice and if the parents can't protect them someone has too.

This is not the first time a polygamist ranch was raided..There was the Short Creek Raid of 1953 . Most of those kids were returned to their parents...Most of those kids are the grandparents and greatgrandparents of those involved right now... In another 50 years, if no one does anything their will be another raid and these childrens descendants will be involved
 
My heart and prayers go out to these women and children. I'm certainly not for taking a child from it's mother, with the exception of extreme circumstances. However, my feeling in this case, from what I've read, heard on the news and seen of the interviews of these poor, sad, downtroten, brainwashed women, is we are trying to save the little ones from a life no one should be exposed too nor raised in.

I shudder to think when these little girls are 13/14/15 they'll be treated with no respect, have no idea who their fathers are, be married and manhandled by lots of dirty old men and forced to have more babies and keep repeating the cycle. This is the USA and IMO it's unlawfully outrageous! :guilty:

DH wants to know,
where are all these men responsible for all these babies in the women's their time of great need????
 
I just heard this on the news:

The girl who made the call said her name was Sarah.

The authorities asked the adults how many teenage Sarah's they had living on the ranch and they said none.

When they asked the kids the same question, the kids all said the same thing: FIVE SARAH's.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Seems some adults are not telling the truth.
 
No, I don't think they are some master smooth talkers. This is their way of life. This is what they have been raised to believe is right and good from the knee. They don't have our values and don't understand why it is wrong. These women deserve compassion and mercy and their children.:sad1:

That's why I am saying that THIS is their chance. They take it or leave it. They give their children a chance at leaving this freak show or they doom them to it. It's all on them now. The State of Texas has given them a golden opportunity. I understand brainwashing, but my maternal instinct is so intense that I would kill to protect my child. I'm on THAT end of the spectrum. I would probably do so for a child I didn't even know. However, I understand that some women are not made quite the same way. I come from a long line of feisty women.

Other women have left that cult. This chance is being handed to them on a silver platter. Tell their story and they and their children will get a free pass to a new life. No more child marriages. No more having to throw your sons out when they become teens. If they don't take this chance, I have little sympathy for them.....only for their poor children.
 
These freaks....yes, I said freaks....are hiding behind the facade of religion to perpetuate a lifestyle of polygamy involving underage girls, which is by definition, child molestation. The mothers are in it up to their necks, even if they do look like Laura Ingalls Wilder and feign innocence and ignorance while staring wide-eyed at the cameras. They are just very good at it, having had decades of intense practice......or what some would call brainwashing.

Some of these kids don't even know when they were born or who their actual biological parents are. All the better to keep "age of consent" fuzzy. They give different answers every time they are asked. They have been trained to lie and never give a straight answer. That tells me their "families" know they have something to hide and have made certain their children will be adept at the skill of hiding information, aka lying. There is NOTHING about this that passes the sniff test......no one single thing.

The mothers wail about how much the children are loved. My concern is that they are "loved" too soon by men that are old enough to be their fathers and grandfathers and are told this is God's will. How many times do we have to see this repeated by this sect/cult before we just wise up to the fact that this is their M.O.? It is what they do. It is who they are. Their mothers are as guilty as the men who molest them, because they allow it to happen. This is their chance to break ranks. If they do not take it, they deserve no mercy.

In this country, the right to religious freedom stops when it infringes on the rights of others, especially the rights of a vulnerable class such as children who are in need of the protection of society. Our duty as a society to protect these children from these molesters and the ones who brainwash them to believe it is normal (even if that includes their mothers) trumps their religious freedom. Our culture says that having sex with children and impregnating them is forbidden, not something to be glorified in the name of religion. Our law trumps their religion. Simple as.

I see right through the hand-wringing of these "mothers." They have zero protective instinct. They have already demonstrated a willingness to hand over their lambs to the slaughter. But they do put on a convincing show. Practice makes perfect. And this cult has been at it for decades. They are slick, slippery, well-financed and lawyered up. But they are still sickos in sheep's clothing.

When a father abuses/molests one of his children, if the mother refuses to keep him away from the other children, then ALL the children are kept from both of the parents. The father has not abused/molested all of them and he may never do so. Is the mother being punished for what might never even happen? No, the children are being kept from a mother who demonstrates an unwillingness to protect her children in the face of a pattern. Here, their very religion demonstrates a pattern of encouraging young girls to "spiritually marry" :sad2: older men and have their children, despite their denials to the contrary. The mothers have not put a stop to it (which might even include leaving the cult) and by failing to take such action, have shown an unwillingness to protect their daughters from sexual abuse. The state does not have to wait until each and every child is molested before they act. They don't even have to prove molestation before they remove the children. They just have to have enough cause to suspect abuse. That's enough to warrant removal and start the process. What the state looks for now is a mother who is proactive at doing what it takes to get her kids back. What they are seeing are mothers who are the dead opposite. That usually spells, "We have something to hide and /or are guilty as sin."

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, yada, yada, and has 5 underage pregnant duckling wives......it needs to be in prison.


Well said Emom! I am amazed by all of the people who don't think the children should have been taken away from the abusers? How else would these children be protected from these monsters?:confused3
 
I posted this on the thread about Warren Jeffs but wanted to post it here too. Sorry for those who already read it!

I was born, raised and live in Utah and I had a friend growing up who was a product of polygamy and had a mother who escaped for the sake of her children avoiding it. It is a horrible practice and one that is not easy for people who don't live it to comprehend or imagine.

My friend, her 9 siblings and mother left in the middle of the night wearing only the clothes on their backs and nothing else. They had packed up some food to bring with them but only what their pockets could hold. It was and is a very sad situation for all involved. *ETA they had NO money, no one on the outside to turn to and no idea how to be normal like the rest of us. They thankfully found the right person at the right time to help them.....many are NOT that lucky*


Polygamist sects usually live in very remote or small towns where it's easier to keep law enforcement officials at bay. These groups in these small towns are now *over time* becoming more self isolating and pathological in their practice. Awhile ago FLDS boys and girls were able to "Fraternize" with each other but when Rulon Jeffs took over from 1986 until 2002 as their "prophet" he declared that way the sinful way and courting was replaced with "the placement" system where all marriages were decided by the prophet which generally was young girls married to much older already married men. This gesture became a status symbol of the men in the community who thought the more wives and children you have the more status and favor you had in the community. Also when Rulon Jeffs died at the age of 92 he had 75 wives and 65 kids. When he died his son Warren declared himself the "prophet" and essentially took on all but 2 of Rulon Jeffs wives as his own which effectively made him his own stepfather.

Most of these women and children are leading bleak, impoverished, hopeless lives.

Placement marriages not only are a detriment to girls they are also a detriment to FLDS boys who are no longer permitted to have normal interactions with girls their own age, social or otherwise. The dislocations produced by the placement system have also led to teenage boys literally being driven out of town—shipped off or assigned to two-year work-missions at businesses operated by wealthier and more powerful polygamists, with their paychecks going directly back to the church, or taken and dumped out on the street, or simply run out of town by the all-FLDS police.

The local slang term for marriageable girls is “poofers”. One day they’re living with their parents, attending school, just being teenage girls. The next day, poof, they’re gone. Marriages aren’t publicly announced or celebrated—often they’re scarcely celebrated at all—and the girls are given minimal advance notice. They just disappear into their husbands’ households: poof!

This practice/religion is scarcely distinguishable from the methods used in the modern-day slave trade. The basics start when you separate the slaves from everyone who might protect or support them. You physically abuse them so they’re frightened and disoriented. You put them in a controlling environment where they’re powerless and deprived of outside information, and make sure that they don’t have proper ID, access to transportation, or money of their own. You repeatedly tell them that this is where they belong. And then you exploit the crap out of them.

Once these girls have had babies, they’re stuck. They can’t abandon their children, and they have no more place to go than they did before. They can’t sue their “husband” for support; they were never legally married to him. They may not have a Social Security Number. They may not have a birth certificate. They have minimal education. They’ve been told all their lives that outsiders are sinful, dangerous, and malign. And everyone they know in the world keeps telling them that where they are is where they belong. So they still don’t run. And because they don’t run they have more children, often at a rate of one a year, which leaves them depressed and exhausted.

The FLDS community lives on land owned by their church, which effectively means it’s owned by their prophet. Members build their houses themselves at their own expense, but if they dissent, misbehave, or wind up on the losing side in political struggles, they’re evicted and shunned. Wives or children can be reassigned to other households.

FLDS members start companies and they use those funds to continually build up their compounds. American Tax Payers have unknowingly helped finance the Texas polygamy sect and probably all the other ones in the nation as well. The Texas group has received a nearly $1 million dollar loan with the federal government and nearly $1.2 million from military contracts. The ability of the FLDS, to operate and grow is largely dependent on huge contributions from its members and revenue from the businesses they control.

One of those businesses, NewEra Manufacturing in Las Vegas, has been awarded more than $1.2 million in federal government contracts, with most of the money coming in recent years from the Defense Department for wheel and brake components for military aircraft. A large portion of the awards were preferential no-bid or "sole source" contracts because of the company's classification as a small business.

It's a sad situation these people are put in through brainwashing or other means. It was so sad to hear my friend and her mother and siblings tell stories about what happened to them and how their lives were so controlled. They didn't have access to anything from outside like television, newspapers, magazines or other resources. Anyone from outside was feared and avoided at all costs.

It really is so sad but I for one am glad they are not letting these children back with their mothers. I'm a mother and would want my children with me as I'm sure they do but the rehab process has to start with the moms and work their way down to the kids. If the mothers aren't taught to change their outlook it won't change for their kids either IMHO.
 
Legally, when a report is made (the cell phone call from the girl claiming she was being raped and beaten) the state must act.

One of the legal gray areas is how they define "home." Is it just the one log cabin of the complainant? Or is it the compound where all the families live/interact? And now that the girl won't come forward, who could pinpoint it anyway?

I've been following the case(s) today, which was absolute insanity. The hundreds of lawyers for every child and every mother makes things impossible. But the system wasn't set up to handle this load. It's uncharted territory.

They are talking genetic testing to determine who the rightful mother and father of each child is because everyone is lying about their relationships.

This is a case of serious indoctrination -- like all cults, they've been told this will happen by the evil people on the outside, and now it's happening.

this is a point i am very surpised one of the legal analysts have'nt brought up-the cirumstances of how they are housed.

in cases of child abuse or neglect if one parent is found to be unaware it is possible for the child to return to their home/unaware parent with protections in place to ensure that the perceived abuser is not co-housed. with this group, as was displayed when they gave larry king a video tour of their 'home' last nite, their housing consists of what largly looks like a hotel. one large dining and common (living room) and many, many bedroom/bathrooms. in this case i would think it would be incredibly difficult to ensure the safety of children, unless the group would be willing to have all accussed adults in an entirely separate area/prohibited contact as specified in any court order.

i thought it was interesting tonight when larry king had a member of the same religous group on, but he was from canada. he was very forthcoming that when warren jepp's (their prophet/in jail in the u.s.) father was their prophet he instructed the group to NOT engage in underage marriage. he stated that the elder jepps had stated that his interpretations/revelations were that while plural marriage was their chosen path it did not include the concept of child brides-but when the younger jepps came into power on his father's death he cast aside that teaching and enforced the practice. so there are sects even within this group that disagree with what the texas crew is doing (not saying i agree with any of this-but if consenting adults want to live in a plural marriage that's an entirely different thing that forced marriages with minors/child rape).

as sorry for the girls and women as i feel, i have to feel sorry for the boys and men who have been raised in this way of life and know no other. when a little boy sees and is told from day one that they are destined to a christlike status and as such are mandated to behave in a certain manner, and failing to do so damns themselves, their future spouses and their children to a tortorous hell-they are victims as well. a mother who teachers her son that his father's abuse towards her is HER FAULT and somehow exemplifies that the father loves the mother enough to take such actions (vs. ignoring it which supposedly is the sin) is perpetuating the type of society wherein children are raised to believe what is wrong is right.
 
I posted this on the thread about Warren Jeffs but wanted to post it here too. Sorry for those who already read it!

I was born, raised and live in Utah and I had a friend growing up who was a product of polygamy and had a mother who escaped for the sake of her children avoiding it. It is a horrible practice and one that is not easy for people who don't live it to comprehend or imagine.

My friend, her 9 siblings and mother left in the middle of the night wearing only the clothes on their backs and nothing else. They had packed up some food to bring with them but only what their pockets could hold. It was and is a very sad situation for all involved. *ETA they had NO money, no one on the outside to turn to and no idea how to be normal like the rest of us. They thankfully found the right person at the right time to help them.....many are NOT that lucky*


Polygamist sects usually live in very remote or small towns where it's easier to keep law enforcement officials at bay. These groups in these small towns are now *over time* becoming more self isolating and pathological in their practice. Awhile ago FLDS boys and girls were able to "Fraternize" with each other but when Rulon Jeffs took over from 1986 until 2002 as their "prophet" he declared that way the sinful way and courting was replaced with "the placement" system where all marriages were decided by the prophet which generally was young girls married to much older already married men. This gesture became a status symbol of the men in the community who thought the more wives and children you have the more status and favor you had in the community. Also when Rulon Jeffs died at the age of 92 he had 75 wives and 65 kids. When he died his son Warren declared himself the "prophet" and essentially took on all but 2 of Rulon Jeffs wives as his own which effectively made him his own stepfather.

Most of these women and children are leading bleak, impoverished, hopeless lives.

Placement marriages not only are a detriment to girls they are also a detriment to FLDS boys who are no longer permitted to have normal interactions with girls their own age, social or otherwise. The dislocations produced by the placement system have also led to teenage boys literally being driven out of town—shipped off or assigned to two-year work-missions at businesses operated by wealthier and more powerful polygamists, with their paychecks going directly back to the church, or taken and dumped out on the street, or simply run out of town by the all-FLDS police.

The local slang term for marriageable girls is “poofers”. One day they’re living with their parents, attending school, just being teenage girls. The next day, poof, they’re gone. Marriages aren’t publicly announced or celebrated—often they’re scarcely celebrated at all—and the girls are given minimal advance notice. They just disappear into their husbands’ households: poof!

This practice/religion is scarcely distinguishable from the methods used in the modern-day slave trade. The basics start when you separate the slaves from everyone who might protect or support them. You physically abuse them so they’re frightened and disoriented. You put them in a controlling environment where they’re powerless and deprived of outside information, and make sure that they don’t have proper ID, access to transportation, or money of their own. You repeatedly tell them that this is where they belong. And then you exploit the crap out of them.

Once these girls have had babies, they’re stuck. They can’t abandon their children, and they have no more place to go than they did before. They can’t sue their “husband” for support; they were never legally married to him. They may not have a Social Security Number. They may not have a birth certificate. They have minimal education. They’ve been told all their lives that outsiders are sinful, dangerous, and malign. And everyone they know in the world keeps telling them that where they are is where they belong. So they still don’t run. And because they don’t run they have more children, often at a rate of one a year, which leaves them depressed and exhausted.

The FLDS community lives on land owned by their church, which effectively means it’s owned by their prophet. Members build their houses themselves at their own expense, but if they dissent, misbehave, or wind up on the losing side in political struggles, they’re evicted and shunned. Wives or children can be reassigned to other households.

FLDS members start companies and they use those funds to continually build up their compounds. American Tax Payers have unknowingly helped finance the Texas polygamy sect and probably all the other ones in the nation as well. The Texas group has received a nearly $1 million dollar loan with the federal government and nearly $1.2 million from military contracts. The ability of the FLDS, to operate and grow is largely dependent on huge contributions from its members and revenue from the businesses they control.

One of those businesses, NewEra Manufacturing in Las Vegas, has been awarded more than $1.2 million in federal government contracts, with most of the money coming in recent years from the Defense Department for wheel and brake components for military aircraft. A large portion of the awards were preferential no-bid or "sole source" contracts because of the company's classification as a small business.

It's a sad situation these people are put in through brainwashing or other means. It was so sad to hear my friend and her mother and siblings tell stories about what happened to them and how their lives were so controlled. They didn't have access to anything from outside like television, newspapers, magazines or other resources. Anyone from outside was feared and avoided at all costs.

It really is so sad but I for one am glad they are not letting these children back with their mothers. I'm a mother and would want my children with me as I'm sure they do but the rehab process has to start with the moms and work their way down to the kids. If the mothers aren't taught to change their outlook it won't change for their kids either IMHO.

Thank you for posting that Hydster. I hope they can get help. It hurts my heart for any Mother to lose her child, but maybe they don't feel like me and feel that children are the most important thing next to God.....

I don't know. I probably shouldn't have even participated in this thread, because I don't know much about it, I'm just functioning off of pure emotion.
 














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