Poll about banning free dining (Inspired by Geezer)

[dianeschlicht]

Higher prices on what? Food? Admission/passes, Rooms, cost of Tee shirts? Certainly not DVC dues.

I really don't see how free dining is costing me anything for others to partake in other than reducing choices on the menus. Food prices will go up due to inflation. The only place I know of that had a huge price jump was at Trail's End.

Regardless, I did vote to get rid of Free dining. Glad Disney is doing well with it, but the masses of people waiting at the restaurants on free dining days is scary. We eat in more.

It costs us more in food costs. I know we've seen higher prices and lower quality food and less options at all the signatures we like to go to like Jiko, Artist Point, Citricos etc.

 

[robinb]

The higher prices are also to cover the food they're giving away....so basically WE are the ones paying for free dining.

I don't see it that way at all and maybe that's why I am not so upset by Free Dining.

Free Dining is a discount incentive, nothing more. I wouldn't say that resort prices are increased to pay for AP discounts and I don't think that WDW restaurant prices have been increased to pay for Free Dining. Restaurant prices have gone up ... because Disney can raise prices. That horrible "Holiday Pricing" at buffets is in place ... because Disney can raise prices. Resort prices have gone up ... because Disney can raise prices. Disney charges more for school holidays ... ... because Disney can raise prices. DVC point prices have gone up ... ... because Disney can raise prices. It's all about profit and supply and demand. Now, I might agree with you if you said that the restaurants are more crowded so there is more demand for ADRs so Disney raises their prices to make a bigger profit, but I don't think those prices cover any "losses" from FD. Especially when FD is such a small part of the year.

 

[dianeschlicht]

Robin, for us the increased expense is that we end up going off site to dine. We "pay a price" so to speak in quality, convenience and value of the food offered at Disney in addition to the price. In other words...We pay the same or more for less.

 

[tjkraz]

Free Dining is a discount incentive, nothing more. I wouldn't say that resort prices are increased to pay for AP discounts and I don't think that WDW restaurant prices have been increased to pay for Free Dining. Restaurant prices have gone up ... because Disney can raise prices. That horrible "Holiday Pricing" at buffets is in place ... because Disney can raise prices. Resort prices have gone up ... because Disney can raise prices. Disney charges more for school holidays ... ... because Disney can raise prices. DVC point prices have gone up ... ... because Disney can raise prices. It's all about profit and supply and demand. Now, I might agree with you if you said that the restaurants are more crowded so there is more demand for ADRs so Disney raises their prices to make a bigger profit, but I don't think those prices cover any "losses" from FD. Especially when FD is such a small part of the year.

"Free" dining may not be to blame for declines in quality but the dining plan itself certainly is.

Most of the damage was done in the early years when the "value" of the dining plan was so much greater to guests. Back then you could get the full table service meal (app, entree, dessert and tip), one counter service and a snack for about $40. And there was an actual formula in place for how much of the DDP revenue would be credited to the restaurant. For the table service meal, I think it was around $28 of the $40.

Under those initial terms, a diner could eat $50-60 worth of food for their one credit, but the restaurant's P&L was only credited for the $28.

Upper management concocted the deal but it wasn't long before the restaurants were being asked to answer for their own margins. When you're forced to take $28 for what would ordinarily have been $50 worth of food, profits immediately suffer.

Some of it is justified by larger crowds. If your volume goes up 50%, you can afford to absorb somewhat lower margins on each meal. But ultimately the restaurants were forced to cut costs. Easiest ways to do that were by eliminating high priced menu items (better to have someone using their entree credit for a $20 pork chop rather than the $35 lobster), removing expensive items from buffets (i.e. prime rib), reducing portion sizes and buying cheaper ingredients. And I'm sure that raising menu prices for cash guests was part of it, too.

Disney has addressed some of this in recent years by scaling back the benefits of the DDP--no more tip, no more appetizer, higher price. Many like to criticize the way Disney has changed the Dining Plan in the last few years but truly the most damaging mistakes were made in 2005/2006 when the plan was in its infancy.

As for "free dining", I have no idea how the economics of that work. The resorts could be subsidizing the whole thing ("paying" the restaurants for meals served) or there could be some sort of split.

We've had some very good meals on recent trips so perhaps the worst has passed. Had some dreadful ones, too (I'm looking at you, Chef Mickey's!) and those locations are permanently off the list.

I like to hope that things are improving, albeit not as quickly as we may wish. If nothing else, it's made me more selective about where we spend our money.

 

[Tiger926]

Yes, you are right on most all counts. Perceived value and real value are often miles apart.

I for one, WOULD eat on site more if the restaurants offered something unique and really good that I couldn't find anywhere else. It USED to be that way, and it is why we always looked forward to dining with Disney. That has changed greatly though over the past 8 years. We have found that quality and uniqueness disappearing more and more each year. Now it's to the point where we find that "special" part of Disney that we used to love to be nearly non-existent.

Just this year we found ourselves dining less and less at Disney and going off-site to find unique dining experiences.

I think there are many more of us who go to WDW regularly who would LOVE to stay on site for our meals if they offered that quality and uniqueness again. As Disney works so hard to attract the masses, they tend to lose those of us who have been most loyal throughout the years. Sad to say, but I probably will be cutting our Disney trips down to once a year again. That's what we used to do before DVC, and I can see us going back to that in the very near future. We already started cutting the length of our trips in the past two years, and the next thing will be the number of trips.

As I see it, Disney is losing a large part of loyal return crowd to a smaller and ever changing crowd of people who will likely go less often.

It's funny how some people will flock to the 'instant gratification' of an offering like FD and not see it for what it is....a marketing tool.

Who do you expect to see that it's a marketing tool? The families for whom FD is the best promotional fit for their family? Most of retail is marketing ploys, heck, DVC uses some wacky marketing ploys, so I'm not following you here... Are you suggesting no one take advantage of FD, because it's a marketing promo, and then Disney will stop offering it?

I'm sensing from many on this thread, as loyal DVC members, you would like better food offerings from Disney. I think DVC is the last group they are concerned about in this area as we have full kitchens in our villas, plus, many of us have cars and can go off-site. I really think Disney's entire food program is geared toward first timers. If they actually wanted to improve food offerings for DVc, they would have many more DVC discounts available, at both CS and TS restaurants. I think the ability to segment the DP, and purchase for a base price all year (no peak season pricing), is about all Disney is going to give us at this time.

Olivia's changed about 5 years ago, maybe longer. They had signature pasta and fish dinners. Sadly they are all gone now and replaced with for lack of a better term, glorified fast food prepared ahead of time in the Disney kitchens located near SSR. We will ocassionally eat a breakfast there but other than that it is a mere shell of what it once was, looks the same and thats it.....smjj

Are you serious? I consider myself to be very Disney knowledgeable, and I had no idea. We just ate there last month, and I saw our food come out of the kitchen, piping hot, and in a timely manner. Are you saying they are cooking it in the Turf Club kitchen, and then run it over on trucks? I am very interested in this...

Tiger

 

[TDC Nala]

The thing that chaps me is they put restrictions on the "free dining" offers, then they don't enforce them. A friend recently got a PIN for free dining - it stated 5 night minimum. But when he phoned they said he could use it on a 4 night stay. Why bother to list a restriction? If they REALLY required a 5 night stay, park ticket purchase, no paying the difference to upgrade the plan, etc. then it would cut down on the hysteria.

The PINs may SAY five nights - but usually that's just a suggestion and not a requirement. Almost all free dining offers are minimum 3 nights and maximum 14 nights, no matter what is put on the advertising.

 

[dianeschlicht]

Are you serious? I consider myself to be very Disney knowledgeable, and I had no idea. We just ate there last month, and I saw our food come out of the kitchen, piping hot, and in a timely manner. Are you saying they are cooking it in the Turf Club kitchen, and then run it over on trucks? I am very interested in this...

Tiger

Absolutely, they do NOT prepare the meals at Olivia's anymore. The items are pre-prepared off site and assembled and heated (if need be) at Olivia's. This was announced to us when it happened too. I can't remember where it was announced, but I do remember it, and I think it was maybe 7-8 years ago?

 

[dianeschlicht]

I'm sensing from many on this thread, as loyal DVC members, you would like better food offerings from Disney. I think DVC is the last group they are concerned about in this area as we have full kitchens in our villas, plus, many of us have cars and can go off-site. I really think Disney's entire food program is geared toward first timers. If they actually wanted to improve food offerings for DVc, they would have many more DVC discounts available, at both CS and TS restaurants. I think the ability to segment the DP, and purchase for a base price all year (no peak season pricing), is about all Disney is going to give us at this time.

Well, if Disney only wants to grab the first timers, the FD program certainly does that, but if they want to keep them and encourage them to 'invest' in Disney by buying into a timeshare (let's not forget that DVC is THE most successful project for Disney in many years), then they will have to change back to their old ways to hold them.

 

[dianeschlicht]

"Free" dining may not be to blame for declines in quality but the dining plan itself certainly is.

I agree with that as well, Tim, but that's a whole other animal and topic for discussion. In a way, they do need to be looked at together, since Free dining is what actually spawned the DDP. They first offered it free, and then added it as part of a package for CRO bookings and at a seperate price for DVC members.

But ultimately the restaurants were forced to cut costs. Easiest ways to do that were by eliminating high priced menu items (better to have someone using their entree credit for a $20 pork chop rather than the $35 lobster), removing expensive items from buffets (i.e. prime rib), reducing portion sizes and buying cheaper ingredients. And I'm sure that raising menu prices for cash guests was part of it, too.

BINGO! That is exactly the gist of this whole poll.

Since FD spawned the DDP, I would lump that into your revenue analysis.

 

[Greysword]

I don't see it that way at all and maybe that's why I am not so upset by Free Dining.

Free Dining is a discount incentive, nothing more. I wouldn't say that resort prices are increased to pay for AP discounts and I don't think that WDW restaurant prices have been increased to pay for Free Dining. Restaurant prices have gone up ... because Disney can raise prices... It's all about profit and supply and demand... but I don't think those prices cover any "losses" from FD. Especially when FD is such a small part of the year.

I'm not sure the restaurant prices are being raised just because they can be raised (aren't many restaurants independently owned? ).

I agree with DeeCee, and will maybe add a little more precision by saying WE (those who pay OOP at the WDW restaurants) are subsidizing the DDP participants (and likely the Free Dining participants even more).

Let us say the restaurants have two primary revenue streams (those who use the DDP and those who pay OOP), for simplicity sake. On the expense side, let us assume many expenses are relatively constant for each meal served (labor, rent, utilities, etc), and the main variable cost was for food. If WDW managed to fix the cost of food as well (food bought in bulk and prepared at an outside facility which is sold to the restaurants for a fixed price), then the only real variable (and ability to control net income) is by charging more to those who pay OOP, since the DDP is also a fixed amount per meal.

Given these assumptions, if something in the expense line increases (food costs, labor expense, facilities (utilities, rent, and maintenance)), those paying OOP will likely be the group to absorb the additional expense. If WDW Resorts negotiate a lower fee paid for each free dining meal (or holds constant the amount paid for each DDP meal when expenses increase), then the restaurants are forced to raise prices for people paying OOP just to hold their current profit margin constant.

I guess this holds true for the DDP in general, which is likely why a premium is added to restaurants during the busy season (families paying OOP are subsidizing DDP participants just to keep the same net income).

- Chris

 

[Greysword]

I'm sensing from many on this thread, as loyal DVC members, you would like better food offerings from Disney. I think DVC is the last group they are concerned about in this area as we have full kitchens in our villas, plus, many of us have cars and can go off-site. I really think Disney's entire food program is geared toward first timers. If they actually wanted to improve food offerings for DVc, they would have many more DVC discounts available, at both CS and TS restaurants...

I believe WDW Resort takes DVC member desires very seriously, since we are a fairly large group that provide a significant amount of recurring revenue (almost guaranteed). Evidence of this is found in the AP discount and the policy to shield DVC members from the seasonal premiums at WDW restaurants.

WDW has always made herculean efforts to prevent guests from leaving (ex: Magical Express expenses to reduce guest ability to travel). As such, I think it is fair to say they do not want DVC members to travel outside of the resort (or even use our kitchens to their full capacity); because, it could (or has) significantly reduce the amount of revenue they can make. Our having cars is actually a threat they are trying to minimize (which is likely why the aforementioned shielding from seasonal premiums on dining were adopted).

Based on the comments made here, I'm not certain more discounts would entice more members to visit the restaurants; rather, greater quality and more unique food would certainly accomplish this goal. If they wanted to conduct an experiment on DVC members to see if we would pay more for unique menus and freshly prepared food, they could do so at at Olivias and the Turf Club. Being uniquely DVC resort restaurants, it would easily target our demographic.

- Chris

 

[starbox]

Bring back the quality food!!!

I actually think FD does WAY more harm than good. Yes, it fills hotel rooms, but it keeps cash $$$$ guests and non-180-day-pre planners locked out of restaurants where they would spend a couple hundred bucks on a meal.

Take my family -when we were young and money was tight and we budgeted trips (staying offsite, eating at Perkins and DTD) my ONE splurge was always a couple of Disney meals (in Cinderella's castle when it was King Stefan's, Chef Mickey, Ohana). Made me love Disney and dream of more - staying onsite!! A guest like me would not even have the option to eat there now. I'd be stuck with overpriced cruddy CS and may decide once was enough, Disney is not worth it.

At the same time restaurants are having to cut quality drastically since there's so much less revenue coming from guests.

I say promo with discounted TICKETS OR limit free dining to specific slow hours (like CP packages where you have to eat dinner before 5) and let there be an even playing field for all guests to pay to eat in the restaurants!

 

[Tiger926]

Well, if Disney only wants to grab the first timers, the FD program certainly does that, but if they want to keep them and encourage them to 'invest' in Disney by buying into a timeshare (let's not forget that DVC is THE most successful project for Disney in many years), then they will have to change back to their old ways to hold them.

I really don't think that dining is a factor in people buying DVC. The resorts and the parks are much more of a factor, I would think, and like I said, we have full kitchens and kitchenettes, so food prep is happening with DVC members, so Disney already knows that.

We enjoy DVC, but do not enjoy eating at Disney very much anymore, so we have stopped eating the food, and do a bunch of cooking now, and we love it! That is a logical consequence, so I don't think that Disney needs, "to change back to their old ways to hold us" as DVC members at all. We bought for the parks and awesome resorts. We would never sell DVC just because food is a problem, as one does not equal the other to us.

Absolutely, they do NOT prepare the meals at Olivia's anymore. The items are pre-prepared off site and assembled and heated (if need be) at Olivia's. This was announced to us when it happened too. I can't remember where it was announced, but I do remember it, and I think it was maybe 7-8 years ago?

Thanks for explaing this. Wow! Didn't know this at all.

I believe WDW Resort takes DVC member desires very seriously, since we are a fairly large group that provide a significant amount of recurring revenue (almost guaranteed). Evidence of this is found in the AP discount and the policy to shield DVC members from the seasonal premiums at WDW restaurants.

WDW has always made herculean efforts to prevent guests from leaving (ex: Magical Express expenses to reduce guest ability to travel). As such, I think it is fair to say they do not want DVC members to travel outside of the resort (or even use our kitchens to their full capacity); because, it could (or has) significantly reduce the amount of revenue they can make. Our having cars is actually a threat they are trying to minimize (which is likely why the aforementioned shielding from seasonal premiums on dining were adopted).

Based on the comments made here, I'm not certain more discounts would entice more members to visit the restaurants; rather, greater quality and more unique food would certainly accomplish this goal. If they wanted to conduct an experiment on DVC members to see if we would pay more for unique menus and freshly prepared food, they could do so at at Olivias and the Turf Club. Being uniquely DVC resort restaurants, it would easily target our demographic.

- Chris

I do agree that we have DVC discounts, but there really isn't a significant amount of discounts, and we actually find that the DVC resorts serve better food, and have better service. Turf Club and Olivia's, for instance, have always been very good for us.

That being said, I really don't think Disney cares as much about DVC members as you and others think, in regards to dining. There are few DVC discounts, as I mentioned, and that's about it. There is the base DP price, instead of having to pay peak season DP price, but again, that's not much. I think Disney is doing the bare minimum, as they know that they have less control over DVC members who have kitchens and cars, over non-DVC members who are stuck on property. Clearly, this is who the DP is marketed to. As I've mentioned many times, there is only a $2.00 upcharge difference between regular DP and peak season DP, yet there is a $4.00 cash difference during peak season. Why is that? Because Disney wants people on the DP, and that is probably why they have worked out a few perks for DVC members, but again, I think a huge amount of DVC members cook or use their villas for snacks, etc.

It's a nice sentiment to think that Disney is thinking about us, but in reality, they have already gotten their money out of us, and will continue to for the length of our contracts. It is much harder to change set in their way loyal Disney patrons, aka DVC members, than it is to set up your dining program for first timers. They are bringing in more cash than DVC members in this respect, as they don't have kitchens and cars, so they have no choice but to eat on-site, whereas we have many other choices available to us. Would Disney love it if more DVC members at on site? Sure, but after years of vacationing to WDW, I don't see them doing much to secure our dining dollars.

Now, based on this thread, I would agree with you that most of us would like better quality food, but honestly, we are probably a very small percentage, and so I don't see Disney rushing to improve things for us anytime soon.

The way for Disney to truly show if we are such an important part of the dining equation is to offer a special DVC DP, or, perhaps a DVC dining discount card for CS and TS meals? TIW is fine, but that has nothing to do with being DVC, as it's tied to being an AP holder or Florida resident. They would need to do something else to show me that as a DVC member, I am a valued part of the dining equation, and up to this point, I haven't seen that yet.

Tiger

 

[MichaelColey]

we have full kitchens and kitchenettes, so food prep is happening with DVC members, so Disney already knows that.

I think you and I are in the minority with that. It seems like the only part of the kitchen most DVC members I've spoken to use is the fridge (to store leftovers and adult beverages) and the microwave (to warm up those leftovers).

We cook breakfast, pack most lunches, and cook most dinners (sometimes with a crock pot, or go out to eat offsite).

 

[dianeschlicht]

Tiger, we have loved Turf Club too, but the last two trips we noticed a decided downturn in the quality of the food there.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

It's possible the uniqueness and quality of WDW food may have nothing to do with the DDP. After all, Disney has been cutting back in many areas in recent years. Why should dining be any different?

MG

 

[Tiger926]

I think you and I are in the minority with that. It seems like the only part of the kitchen most DVC members I've spoken to use is the fridge (to store leftovers and adult beverages) and the microwave (to warm up those leftovers).

We cook breakfast, pack most lunches, and cook most dinners (sometimes with a crock pot, or go out to eat offsite).

I always wondered how many cook? We never used to either, but after doing 2-3 TS meals per day for years, we are tired of Disney's games in the dining department, so we are cooking our own food. With the money we save on food over a few trips, I can pay for a DCL cruise every few years!

Tiger, we have loved Turf Club too, but the last two trips we noticed a decided downturn in the quality of the food there.

Oh, no. We didn't get a chance to dine in March, so that's disappointing to hear.

It's possible the uniqueness and quality of WDW food may have nothing to do with the DDP. After all, Disney has been cutting back in many areas in recent years. Why should dining be any different?

MG

ITA!

Tiger

 

[Greysword]

Tiger, I'm not sure a greater discount is the answer. I like to believe if they serve excellent quality food then people will fill the restaurant. If they want to target DVC, we have two excellent options.

I am also curious about the car you keep mentioning. Do most DVC members drive or do they use ME? If the latter, they are as much beholden to restaurants as non-DVC members who use ME (with transportation as the factor). In full disclosure my family always rents a car, but I'm from the Tampa area and visit my parents when in the State. I thought at least half of the DVc guests use ME, another quarter (or so) drive to WDW from their home, and the remainder rent a car. This is a complete SWAG light on the science .

I completely agree with the use of the kitchen. We make extensive use of it and eat about 4-5 times in restaurants (TS and CS combined). I thought this was a poll several months ago (maybe even by Diane?).

In the end, I hope WDW doesn't have as cynical view of DVC as you seem to think

 

[Sammie]

It's possible the uniqueness and quality of WDW food may have nothing to do with the DDP. After all, Disney has been cutting back in many areas in recent years. Why should dining be any different?

MG

I think you are right.

And that it was probably a combination of both and the timing just happened to be at the same time.

 

[Tiger926]

Tiger, I'm not sure a greater discount is the answer. I like to believe if they serve excellent quality food then people will fill the restaurant. If they want to target DVC, we have two excellent options.

I am also curious about the car you keep mentioning. Do most DVC members drive or do they use ME? If the latter, they are as much beholden to restaurants as non-DVC members who use ME (with transportation as the factor). In full disclosure my family always rents a car, but I'm from the Tampa area and visit my parents when in the State. I thought at least half of the DVc guests use ME, another quarter (or so) drive to WDW from their home, and the remainder rent a car. This is a complete SWAG light on the science .

I completely agree with the use of the kitchen. We make extensive use of it and eat about 4-5 times in restaurants (TS and CS combined). I thought this was a poll several months ago (maybe even by Diane?).

In the end, I hope WDW doesn't have as cynical view of DVC as you seem to think

Not cynical at all...how is being realistic about one component of Disney being cynical? It's always funny to me how when people are realistic or analytical, they are cynical.

I don't see how it's cynical, after going to WDW for over 10 years straight, multiple weeks per year, and having eaten in pretty much every single restaurant, to see how they are handling the dining program. I come from an Italian restaurant family, so I know about superb quality and service. Disney is cutting corners because they can. The food program is not set up for regulars like us, because if it were, as I've already stated, I believe we would have seen DVC only components.

Why has Disney heavily discounted tickets (AP) and even recreation for DVC, but not food? Food is an area in which they can stretch pretty far, before they have to drastically change anything. And again, we have kitchens in our villas, and people are using them. Seriously, think about it. If Disney really wanted our DVC dining dollars, why in the world would they have put in kitchens in our villas? You yourself said you take advantage of it!

In regards to the car, the DVC resort parking lots are always full, and based on lots of reading on these boards, I think a good many DVC members drive, and visit other off-site restaurants quite often.

I disagree that a perk or discount is not one of several solutions. Money is a powerful motivator for many. Disney's food program runs the way it does, based on many factors, and so they feel the food and service is just fine because it's set up for first timers. How are DVC members going to convince them otherwise? Just because people eat in those restaurants, it doesn't mean the food is good - perhaps they refuse to cook on vacation, perhaps they don't have a car...? There are other variables, and that is what I am looking at in terms of a solution for a positive DVC and dining marriage. Right now, DVC members partake of the same food offerings that the general public does, with a few DVC discounts throw in. Why is that? Also, cash paying guests (many of whom are DVC members) are paying higher cash prices during peak season than DP guests. Why is that?

And, like I said, I don't feel that Disney wants to target DVC, and that's not being cynical. I look around at the state of dining, and how it's not marketed towards DVC, and that is how I form my opinions. DVC is a group of loyal members, and as such, we should have our own food program, just like we have our own resorts. Why has Disney not done this? This is where I am at...That is why Diane started this poll - she wants to ban the DP as a way to improve food for DVC members, and I am assuming all guests. Is this an equitable, fair or reasonable solution? Several of us think not. DVC has nothing to do with Disney's food program, and that is what I am trying to get people to realize. Why is that?

How is that being cynical, when this is what Disney has set up? Tiger