Points for Disney Collection 2002

[PamOKW]

Gray and others considering purchasing, I wouldn't let the raising of points be the deciding factor in your purchase. For one thing, we haven't actually seen the schedule although it sounds like the increases are pretty much across the board. I would call your guide and ask to see the charts and maybe see if they can offer an explanation for the major changes.

When considering a purchase the primary point to look at is the DVC component. Will you make good use of the WDW, Vero and HHI resorts? Does it fit in your budget etc., etc.

Use of the the other WDW resorts is really just a "safety net". It's hard to give up the idea of not being able to stay at your favorite resort or to try whatever is new. In reality, most members end up staying at the DVC resorts the majority of the time. It will just be more economically feasible to pay cash to stay at the non-DVC resorts in the future.

Before panicking too much about the loss of WDW resorts on points, let's remember Y&B is coming off the option list anyway when BCV opens. WL is already gone.

My greater concern is to see what has happened with non-WDW options. I think we need more Concierge Collection selections at decent point amounts. If these have gone up as well I'll be much more disappointed. We need options for those times when we can't make it to Florida.

I'm not happy about a large unexpected increase in Disney Collection options. It leaves a bad feeling. But, it really doesn't have that large of an actual impact. I've only used it once in 8 years. Every year there is the possibility that it can end altogether. This is an "in-between" option. It's not gone but it is a very expensive use of points.

 

[Lisa F]

Originally posted by Doc

As for the costs of the exchange program, in case you hadn't noticed, the economic climate has changed dramatically in the last 10 months. I don't think DVC has lost money on the past with this program, but I do think they may have in the last few months. IMO, increasing the points for DC resorts is a fiscally responsible move and nothing more.

I don't understand how the program would cause DVC (or Disney) to lose money. If someone trades say 26 points for a weeknight in the GF to disney, disney is losing the $199/night on the room that they would've charged for AP rates. In exchange for that 26 points/night they can rent a standard view 2 bedroom to pay for it... Although those rates are deeply discounted, they are still over $300 which is over 150% of what they would've gotten for the GF room, if it rented at all.

The only reason I can think of is if DVC has negotiated to "pay" disney full rack rate on all of their rooms and only gets back some percentage of whatever disney can rent the equivalent DVC room for.

Interestingly enough, I just did the quick math and i'm not sure how often this holds, but it seems like Disney has pretty much decided that points are worth $5/point. That's what they're giving for magical beginnings, and that's about the value of points used with both the disney cruise lines and the disney collection now (just a very rough gross estimate).

If Disney did something to indicate that this move was a "temporary tightening of the belt" to deal with the softening economy, it would be one thing. Instead it's perceived as disney basically cutting out one element of flexiblity in the program... Do you think the points for DC have a chance of going back down again?

This worries me because one of the things that sold me on DVC is the flexiblity of the program and the "safeness" that I feel in going with Disney. It makes me wonder if disney is planning to completely strip the program down to the bare essentials of what is promised in writing after they feel they can sell no more new units. At least if we can't exchange out of disney anymore, people won't be able to exchange IN to disney and this would probably make a fairly good market for dvc members who independently exchange weeks with other timeshare holders.

Anyway, regardless of whether I have used the DC (which I haven't yet, but I was planning to splurge on the GF in Jan 2003) it's still a very disappointing move on the part of disney.

Lisa

 

[sgtpet]

You should be concerned Pam. That is my underlying concern.


I could bet that they will raise the non Disney collection points and then eventually make it impossible or very costly to stay at a non home DVC resort.

This is a stepping stone to disaster.

Let's think about it. Consider all the perks over the last 10 years. Now the perks are dwindling and so are the years left in the program. Why would anybody buy into this at this point? The non DVC owners would be better off keeping the variety of vacation choices within Disney and the rest of the world.

 

[normr]

I've already fired off two e-mails about this (I'm not happy about this at all, I too think Disney is changing what they sold to us and made us believe).

Now I will follow it up with a regualr letter to the heads of DVC

 

[DVCDAVE]

The CORNERSTONE of Disney's marketing of DVC has been FLEXIBILITY !! It is one thing to reign in perks like discounts and poolhoping. It is another thing all together to eliminate the economic feasibility of exchanges in to the Disney Collection. While it is true DOC that the option is still there, and that the option wasn't all that great to begin with, it is something all together differant to jack up the expense (in points) to exercise that flexibility.

I have two promotional videos that Disney sent to us prior to purchase of our interest in DVC. Through out both videos the theme and 'buss words' are flexibility. Flexibility of time of travel, flexibility of destination, flexibility of accomodations, etc. etc. etc.. Clearly, Disney has violated its infurred longterm promise to its DVC members, while hiding behind the imbigious wording of its contract.

I am furious over this issue. While I know what the timeshare agreement says, the sales rep and marketing department of DVC were saying something all together differant.

While it remains TRUE that the benefit is still there, the SPIRIT of it is NOT. Further, I am not so closed mionded is to not understand that minor changes to the point schedule for the Disney Collection may be necessary and justified to account for room availibility at certain resorts during seasonal swings. But an accross the board gouge is both uncalled for and abusive to the membership, and violates the inferred promise of flexibility.

DOC, you and other members continue to point to rentals as a cause for this manuver by Disney. Frankly, I don't see what business it is of Disney, or DVC what members do with their points. It is the members progative to either use them, rent them or give them away. It is the members PRIVATE property. For all we know, or don't know this may have little or know bearing on Disney's actions. IMHO if this activity was causing financial hardship on the DVC program, I would assume we would have heard some sort of warning from DVC manangement long ago, as we did with pool hopping.

Yes, I do understand that the economy has softened in the last 10 months. I have a BS degree in Finance, and I have been a stockbroker for the last 22 years. I would agree with Disney's defense on this matter if we also had assurance that the schedule would be restored to its historical levels, ONCE things improve. So far we have no official word from Disney on their reasons, economic or otherwise, nor do we have assurance that things would be restored if the economy is to blame. What we do know is that DVC members are Disney's most loyal and repeat customers. As in any business, you shouldn't mistreat your best customers, patients, or clients or else you face losing them. We as DVC members are now faced with a vacation partner who is giving added perks, incentives and discounts to attract guests to the other resorts, and WE are faced with losing our most treasured promise 'flexibility'. How ironic.

 

[Lisa P.]

Posted by Dean: Since DVC rooms should increase in price with the other WDW hotels, the price shouldn't go up at all "to stay the same". Inflation between resorts should cancel out and the points should stay the same.

Except that DVC's maint fees only rise with inflation. Other WDW resort hotel rates increase from a combination of inflation and increased profit margin for the corporation (and ultimately, the stockholders). Even in slower years when they've offered huge discount deals at Disney hotels, they've still raised their rack rates faster than inflation.

DVC actually pays the other resorts cash, a predetermined discounted rack rate. Probably more than anyone else pays at that resort the entire year.

Maybe more, maybe less. DVC may only be considering the maintenance fees they receive on those points. Perhaps, if that's true, a Disney hotel room costing 70 points would (in DVC's perspective) only cost the DVC'er $210-$280 with no hotel room taxes. They may still see that as a good deal at a deluxe, especially GF. If this is the way they are looking at it, I wonder if the Concierge Collection will be similarly affected at some point soon.

DVCers' purchase monies went for the DVC home property's development, marketing and profit, so they may not include it into a calculation of the value of points used for a non-DVC option.

Non-DVC options that held added value at one time may be been supported more by DVD when they needed them to boost earlier sales. With recently brisk sales and a large member base (who use the discounted options), DVD may not have concerns about reducing their support for them. In addition, if non-DVC options decrease, DVD could offer them again as short term incentives for selling Eagle Pines.

For those who see this as a personal disregard for DVC'ers, I disagree. DVC's board has to make decisions regarding the best fiscal management for its members. I don't think they are trying to stick it to people (though that may be an actual outcome for some) but rather try to keep fringe perks from adversely affecting the organization as a whole. They've always presented options as subject to change. The "family" thing has never been anything more than marketing hype... used by many successful businesses.

If someone bought DVC with the intention of using it as it was designed... a very flexible timeshare resort with a few excellent sister resorts... they would STILL enjoy their purchase. It's disappointing to see perks disappear but they really are just that - perks. What you are left with, is the essential purchase and it hasn't changed.

Interval International exchanges will be totally unaffected, since the points requirement is linked to stays at DVC properties. If members complain about dwindling opportunites for nightly stays, I wonder whether DVC will consider dual-affiliating with RCI. With their new RCI Points program starting up, it could offer more flexibility at moderate points costs for those seeking non-DVC nightly stays. That program is new but will likely grow dramatically over time.

 

[sgtpet]

DVC Dave

You nailed it on the head. DVC owners are the greatest fans of Disney. They have been willing to lay down a significant amount of money upfront to vacation for half a century. Since DVC owners have shown loyalty upfront, they are the ones that are being punished with the economic burdon.


I am annoyed at myself for almost making the plunge into DVC. I felt it would be a great vacation location and vehicle to have other FLEXIBLE vacations.


You folks are an owner of property for vacations. Disney has taken your money upfront to vacation for 40-50 years. You should not give a darn about their economic slowdown. The DVC owner has contributed greatly to the Disney Empire.

Don't put up with it. Voice your concerns. This is the only way to get satisfaction.

I will not buy now. But I don't want to see the DVC owners get jerked around.

If we took a graph of what was offered over the 10 years of DVC you would see a decline in benefits and ability for reasonable flexibility.

Good luck to all of you get DVC Owners.

 

[LauraS]

Dean asked me where the origin of my statement that perhaps Disney is concerned with DVC rentals. Well, for one, I highly doubt that Disney Execs are going to discuss their growing concerns over rentals with us, the members. As you mentioned, there's not a thing that they can do legally. There's no way for them to prove that the person renting isn't a close friend or relative of the DVC member renting out their points. So why would they even bother to bring it up with the members. Honestly, your guess that DVC rentals are less than one percent is just that, a guess. I don't think that any one of us has a clue to how much DVC rentals are cutting into Disney's bottom line. Perhaps rentals are cutting in just enough that a red flag has been raised and Disney is moving to slow this trend. We all know that they read these boards and auction websites where DVC stays are being auctioned off. Maybe the DVC has noticed a dramatic rise in DVC reservations being made for "friends and family" and have decided that a good deal of these *could* be rentals. Maybe they've decided that enough is enough.

And even if DVC rentals are at the one percent level, you don't think that Disney would vehemently protect that interest? I'm sure that they would especially go after that one percent in this economy where every percent counts. Disney protects "everything Disney" like a lioness protects her cubs. The newsgroup RADP had a logo that too closely resembled Mickey Mouse. The group was contacted and told that if those logos were worn into a Disney Park that anyone wearing one would be escorted from that park. I think that they'll protect loss of funds with even more force. It's almost like Disney is saying to us, "you can have your DVC resorts, but the Disney Resorts are *ours*". So anyone who thinks that they can rent points to a non-DVC member and undercut Disney rack rates, well, that possibility has just been taken out of the picture. Honestly, I just can't think of any other reason for Disney to raise the DC points by such a dramatic level when they are slashing cash rates like crazy to attract more business. Part of me thinks that it is because Disney already *has* our money. They've got us. We keep coming back. They need to fill the rest of their rooms now, with cash paying customers. Disney has also moved to slash cash rates at DVC resorts. Sure renting may not stop, but for now Disney is protecting their resorts and keeping the 4% (+) cash business at the DVC resorts. That may be all that they can protect legally, and it seems to me that they are doing just that.

For us DVCers I see this as bad news. I believe that this move has made the 11 month window even more crucial for DVCers. This move will make ressies on short notice tough to come by. Honestly, I had no intention of staying at any other Disney resort because I'm perfectly happy at the BWV. However, I think that Disney is really shooting themself in the foot with respect to future sales. The "flexibility" pitch for DVC salespeople is gone. And the "buy where you'd like to stay" motto has become more important than ever. I just don't like this trend at all. The longer DVC is around, the more Disney takes away. We are the biggest spenders and their biggest fans, and yet we truly are being treated like the Black Sheep of the Disney Fan Family.

Laura

 

[Joeblack]

I wrote my guide regarding this matter and today I got a response from her. I quote her:

"In regards to the Disney Collection point chart, they have restructured it. However, they have now added concierge floors at the premium resorts and that is probably why they are saying the points have raised. They typically would book a standard room with the old point chart. If you want a concierge room you would need to use more points,but the standard room pt chart is very similar to the old chart and did not go up 60%.You will be receiving new guide books at the end of the year and at that time they will have published the new Disney Collection point chart in writing."

Something similar happened with the marriott rewards program this year. Before, you could get 2 tickets, 7 nights of accomodation and 7 days of car rental anywhere in the world for 200.000 points. Now they changed the charts and you have to pay quite more to do the same thing. With he same amount of points as before, you only get to travel to less desirable destinations and get no car rental.

I guess once timesharing companies have sold their product to a large base of people based on promises of flexibility, they just start withdrawing privileges as they please.

Not Good!!!

 

[kem330]

I'd just like to illustrate what motivated us to buy in the program:
Last New Years we rented 2 rooms at the BC for $415/night plus tax, Jan 1 and 2 the rate went down to $289 plus tax total bill: about $2186.00. Looking at 2001 point chart, point costs at BC are 48 for 12/31 and 22 for 1/1 and 1/2 = 92 points. Our point costs come to about $5.50/point so it would come to about $506/room or $1012 for 2, saving us $1174.00. While it would cost us only 110 points to stay at the BWV 2BR ($605), we can't always plan 11 months out and this year we closed after the 11 month window, and are on a wait list.

We purchased plane tickets, because we were told there were quite a few hotel rooms available and planned to reserve them if the WL didn't clear soon. So now after I purchased my tickets, I find it will cost me just as much as cash ressies to stay at the hotels. This on top of the fact that we almost bought VB because we were told that with SSPL, we would have no trouble exchanging into WDW. Well thank goodness for this board, because we cancelled and bought BW resale and then SSPL was cancelled shortly after we closed. To top it all off, my WL did clear last week but my cell phone did not relay the message until Saturday and by 9am Monday MS could do nothing.

Maybe I've just had a run of bad luck (lost out on the lottery, too)
and next year will be better, but I have to say we are disappointed because for us these benefits were a motivating factor in our purchase. Sure it's a better value to stay at DVC (1/4 cheaper than cash) but 1/2 off at the holidays is nothing to sneeze at.

Thanks for letting me vent- This board has been absolutely fantastic- way more supportive and informative than Disney!

 

[Lisa P.]

Posted by DVCDAVE: I have two promotional videos... the theme and 'buss words' are flexibility. Flexibility of time of travel, flexibility of destination, flexibility of accomodations, etc. etc. etc.

DVCDAVE, this has not changed within the DVC resorts, which is where you purchased. I know you are upset about this. I would be too. It's important to remember that they are not eliminating the flexibility of the core program. They are altering a non-DVC perk.

To the original poster... I'd book a cash room at GF now and look for discounts to change your reservation later. They've extended some amazing cash discounts through December 24th (and right through Christmas week, for some people who've got reservations that start sooner). Watch the Disney Resorts forum and Mouse Savers regularly for additional discounts in later months. You're going during a slow time, despite the marathon (certainly FAR quieter than Christmas week!) so keep watching. Have a fun trip!

 

[kem330]

Joe, why don't you email your guide the points quoted to me by MS: Standard View Y&BC, Jan 1 & 2, 60 points per night (were 22 in 2001!) If that's not a gouge, I don't know what is.

Lisa, you've made a good point, there are great deals out there for the general public- so why are we being made to pay more??????? Why join DVC?

 

[RobDoc]

DOC, you and other members continue to point to rentals as a cause for this manuver by Disney.

Actually, Dave, my point is exactly the opposite. I don't think rentals have affected this issue or DVC in any way. Since members have paid their dues, DVC knows exactly what operating capital they will have each year.

My point is that when members use points at non-DVC resorts, DVC must rent DVC rooms for cash to use those points. The receipts from those rentals are used to repay the exchange resort. If DVC resort rooms go unused - and thus those exchange points- then DVC loses money to pay for the exchange. This is the case for DC and Concierge Collection resorts- as well as the Adventure programs. When room rentals are down, the receipts for these DVC cash rentals is definitely affected.

From JoeBlack's report it seems as though at least some of the suggested increase is to reserve Concierge rooms at non-DVC resorts. Perhaps we should postpone the lynching until we've actually had a chance to read the charges and hold a trial.

 

[Lisa P.]

Posted by kem330: ...there are great deals out there for the general public- so why are we being made to pay more???????

You aren't being asked to pay more than the general public. The cash discounts are available to you too. Some DVC'ers like to pay cash for weekends and high seasons, to stetch their points. Even with the Disney Collection points increases, it seems to me that you are still being offered a fair price by using points... certainly less than rack rates, if you multiply the points required by your maintenance fees. It's just not the deal it was before and it underscores the real value of using points at DVC resorts.

Why join DVC?

Because you like the DVC resorts and plan to use them at least every other year, banking and borrowing in between trips. DVC has never been marketed as a travel club. Their emphasis has been on WDW and their core DVC resorts. Other perks were presented as perks. I don't think that's unfair.

What's unfortunate in my mind, is that so many people have perceived Disney's product as being so different from other timeshares with distinct avoidance of any association with the bad reputation of timeshares. In fact, it's a terrific program but still a timeshare. And as the little extra perks lose their value, that's a bit more evident. Yet, compared with the typical timeshare, it's still a top-of-the-line resort system and interval ownershp product. I guess it's all about perception and expectation.

 

[Terry S]

I was a prospective buyer. If BCV had already been on line I would have already purchased. I understand what most people on this board are saying regarding not really "losing" your flexibility.... yet! My major concern is that they are taking things away little by little. What are they going to take away next?

 

[wdwendyd]

Are we SURE that in 2002 these dates are really Adventure Season. It could be they are close enough to winter break that they are a different season's points. If so, we could be getting upset (and scaring people who could really benefit from joining DVC) away over nothing! Let's get all the facts before passing such extreme judgements!!

 

[PamOKW]

I agree -- We need more information about what's happening.
More than once I've been outraged about something I've read on the boards and then come to find out it's not all that bad. Maybe that will be the case again.

Members asked to be able to reserve Concierge on points. Well, we've go that now. Of course, maybe members didn't consider that they would then come up with a two-tiered system of booking the regular rooms as well.

I certainly hope that the point charts become availalble prior to the "end of the year". If they are completed now they should be made available. At the very least they should post them on the web site.

 

[kem330]

Lisa, I totally agree with you it is about perception and expectations. And quite frankly, I feel foolish for ever thinking DVC was different than any other time share. While I admit to naivete and gullibility, I do point some blame in DVC's direction because they heavily market their program has flexible and different than any other TS. Disney Collection and other exchanges are heavily promoted in their sales pitch and while I certainly don't expect things to stay the same, I don't expect a huge increase either. This is no aspersion to the many happy DVC members. Some of us just came into the program with different expectations (created in part by Disney's marketing). And as far as paying cash, frankly that's why I joined DVC, I laid out $12,400 + dues this year so I could have a trip at NY'S (it's the only time we all can go) and it would defeat the purpose to pay cash and not use my points.

Pam and Doc, as usual you are the voice of reason- I'm sure the whole year's point schedule won't play out this way. But for one member who had all their plans set it is very hard to swallow a 200% increase

 

[DVCDAVE]

OK DOC, I'll put away my rope until the list is released and I see for myself. But, from what I heard so far, I won't expect an early Christmas present.

 

[Joeblack]

I already posted my DVC guide's response. Here's Member Services' response. Guess next week we'll know what the real deal is.

"Although there is an increase in points for some hotels for some dates, there is
actually a decrease in some dates as well. For example, August 3, which is a
weekend day at the Disney's Animal Kingdom Lodge changed from 71 Reservation
Points in 2001 to 56 Reservation Points in 2002. The points charts for the
Disney Collection, Concierge Collection and Adventurer Collection will be on the
DVC web site next week so you can see all the points for 2002."