Point Charts - Call with Disney Management Tomorrow (12/16)

I rechecked my 06/2006 OKW book and they have sole discretion (page172 5.2) to reallocate (not more than 20% for any day) which appears to mean for any reason that balances demand. The only prohibition on sliding points from 1 unit type to another is when the adjustment is seasonal (page 194 paragraph 2). My guess is this was done to avoid conflating different rationales. it is also notable that there are only 2br and GVs that are considered on this sliding prohibition at OKW so 1br and studios could be rebalaced at the same time.

I will add that there is nothing in the RIV POS that limits it to seasonal changes only. There is also nothing specific that the lock off premium has to remain constant...hence my question above.

I do find it interesting that they loosely define the base year, which does potentially give them some wiggle room. Unless a base year includes maximum weekend days, there is going to be variation. The the POS clearly states the base year will include the minimum number of weekend in the high demand time.

It will be interesting as to what they say.

ETA. When looking over thr Multi POS, it has the maximum reallocation chart which includes points if all days were the same. For RIV, because we don’t have a breakdown of SV vs PV in terms of rooms, it makes me wonder if they sell points based on only PV?

Based on equal 365 days, number of units, and maximum, the total points can be anywhere from 6,110,100 if all were SV up to 7,195,245 if all were PV. This counts all 2 bedrooms as 2 bedrooms.

So, that leads me to the question...Can the different views play a role in total points being more or less since DVD has the ability to designate? Or is that fixed?
 
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ETA. When looking over thr Multi POS, it has the maximum reallocation chart which includes points if all days were the same. For RIV, because we don’t have a breakdown of SV vs PV in terms of rooms, it makes me wonder if they sell points based on only PV?

Based on equal 365 days, number of units, and maximum, the total points can be anywhere from 6,110,100 if all were SV up to 7,195,245 if all were PV. This counts all 2 bedrooms as 2 bedrooms.

So, that leads me to the question...Can the different views play a role in total points being more or less since DVD has the ability to designate? Or is that fixed?

What I've read - I think from Drusba - is from other resort declarations but that there are no designation or difference in SV, PV or any other units - they points declared are the same for that villa size no matter where it's located and then separate from that DVC has set up the view differences which should then in total equal the sum of the units of that size being declared.
 
What I've read - I think from Drusba - is from other resort declarations but that there are no designation or difference in SV, PV or any other units - they points declared are the same for that villa size no matter where it's located and then separate from that DVC has set up the view differences which should then in total equal the sum of the units of that size being declared.

I figured they don’t actually label by view, but the maximum reallocation chart does have differences for what it would take to reserve SV vs PV if everything was the same 365 days a year.

So, that became my question. How does the total get calculated in terms of points available to be sold when that chart shows differences?

Unless I am misunderstanding the maximum reallocation chart? I am assuming that is what the rooms would cost if there were no seasons, or no differences between weekend and weekdays.

If so, then there is about 1,000,000 point difference between all rooms being at the SV cost vs all rooms being at the PV cost based on that chart.
 

any other days shift based on days besides US Thanksgiving and Gregorian Easter? assume no

Christmas could include 2 or 3 Weekend Days. This year is 2 and next year is 3 (Fri/Sat/Fri). Although that partly is set by leap year and what day of the week the year starts on.
 
@i<3riviera...what is your understanding of the max reallocation chart you can find in the back of the multi site POS?
 
Note as to the above, if you are actually going to ask why they do not make 1BRs lower due to lower demand and are going to provide the view that DVC should lower 1BRs and thus raise other rooms such as studios, please let them also know that there are many members, including me, who strongly oppose any such shift of points from one room category to another, and believe it would be a violation of the POS, including the DVC Membership Agreement, and, particularly in relation to older resorts, like BWV, it would be violation of written representations made by DVD during the sale of the points which assured buyers that adjustments would be seasonal only and total annual points for a particular room category, such as a studio, would not change.
Didn't they represent other older resort sales that way as well? I remember OKW tour them stating that specifically, but that preceded BWV. I thought they also said the same for SSR, but didn't they already violate that with the reallocation of points for the treehouse villas situation?
 
I found an interesting cash benchmark for demand for studio vs 1br. under the Disney visa discount you can get a 1br for as little as $50 more than a studio. That works out to a little more than $3 per point equivalent for the incremental increase
 
Do you have an example of this by chance you could share?
@drusba, I completely agree with this statement. However, don't we have a precedent set when SSR added the Treehouses?

I believe the Treehouses were actively marketed as getting a 3 BR for the price of a 2 BR. Then, after selling out, they hiked the 3 BR treehouses up and decreased other room categories. This was before my time, but I do own at SSR so would love to know the reasoning.
 
Focus on what's most important for you. They'll probably give you a limited time (usually 30 minutes) so it won't be possible to discuss about everything.
 
I believe the Treehouses were actively marketed as getting a 3 BR for the price of a 2 BR. Then, after selling out, they hiked the 3 BR treehouses up and decreased other room categories. This was before my time, but I do own at SSR so would love to know the reasoning.
Demand for the "3 bedroom for the price of a 2 bedroom" was very high. THV were gone very quickly as soon as the 11 month window opened.
 
good question! I've struggled to make any sense out of it besides just being some lower limit; I had several theories but none panned out ...
  • it's not the lowest season in any point chart
  • multiplying 365 days * max reallocation * # villas per size / view ≠ declared points
  • it's not rounding down declared points per unit to the nearest whole number (declared points don't distinguish between views though so this isn't useful for ds, 1b, or 2b)
here's a table I put together ...
View attachment 544156

also, not sure if this matters, but I read that portion of the POS to mean even if you had one day at the max reallocation amount then all other days could be higher; there are other things in the POS that seem to prevent this though and there have always been at lease one full season below the max reallocation limit

I'm not sure the purpose of that section of the POS because it doesn't seem to be something that is used

Thanks. I took it to mean that this is the chart if there were no seasons, travel periods, or anything.

I did some rough calculations last night for RIV and using rounding, 21 and 22 charts average out pretty much to those numbers exactly, except GV was 135 for 22, which is 1 point higher than max chart.

Since DVD has to retain ownership of a certain % of resort, are those points declared since they are never sold? Could that account for the difference?

I do think they purposely have vague language so that it gives them ability to move things around for views, etc.
 
This responds to a number of posts above and sets out why I believe it is improper for DVC to shift points from one room category to another. I have made these points before. Most of this refers to BWV documents but other resort POS dcouments have the same or similar provisions, including Riviera.

Many assume that because DVC has made some changes in the last 8 years to raise points for a room category while lowering for a different room category, e.g. the treehouses, therefore DVC must have a right to do it. That is an incorrect assumption. The reason DVC has gotten away with such changes is not because they were necessarily legally proper. The fact is no one challenged them, and thus no decision was made as to whether they were legally proper changes. Noteworthy is that when DVC tried to raise studios and 1BRs year-round, while lowering other rooms in the initially issued 2020 point charts, members mounted a challenge, and DVC caved in and withdrew those point charts.

The modern DVD/DVC, with its attempt to change the 2020 point charts, its repeated actions to take away the rights and privileges of resale purchasers, and its sales program that has effectively resulted in the oversell of studios, has shown itself to be anti-member. It would be a mistake for members to support DVC’s belief that it can move points from one room size to another, because what the modern DVC would likely do is make changes like those set out in the initial 2020 points charts. If members assert DVC should focus on differences in room size demand rather than seasonal demand for making changes, what you are likely to get from the modern DVC is a lowering of points for bungalows at Poly, cabins and GVs at CCV, GV’s and 2BRs at SSR, GV’s and 2BRs at AKV, and 2BRs at BRV and VGF, which will be offset by significant increases in points needed for studios, i.e., yes, the modern DVC will likely make the 1BRs more in line with the studios, but not by lowering the points needed for 1BRs but instead by raising the points needed for studios.

Many assume that DVC can do whatever it wants unless there is a clear and unequivocal provision in the POS that prohibits it. That is not how legal cases usually work in such situations. “Big company” Disney drafted all the POS documents and, when purchasing, the “little guy” members had no ability to negotiate different language. In subsequent legal disputes depending on the meaning of terms in the POS, that would usually mean Disney wins if its alleged meaning of the POS terms is the only reasonable one, but if there is any ambiguity in the language, and the argument for applicable meaning made by the members is also reasonable, the members should win. Moreover, the applicable rules are even worse for DVC if the DVC entity authorized to do something on an issue is deemed by law to be a fiduciary when deciding it, which is applicable to DVCM, the management company authorized to make home resort point chart changes. In cases involving a fiduciary as the defendant, the burden of proving that the plaintiff-members position on the issues is wrong, and of accepting DVCM’s argument that its interpretation is the only reasonable one, would be shifted to DVCM, requiring it to essentially disprove the plaintiff’s case to win.

DVCM's power to change point charts is set out in the DVC Membership Agreement. Nowhere in that document is it stated that changes can be made based on room-size demand differences. That Agreement initially provides the general rule that total points required to reserve all rooms during all days of the use year must always be equal. The agreement then provides:

1. DVCM has the power to raise or lower the points needed for “any given Use Day in a Vacation Home” ( a term defined as a room such as a studio) due to “fluctuations in Use Day demand.” Note how it says nothing about a power to change points to correct fluctuations in room-size demand among different-sized Vacation Homes.

2. It then states that “any increase or decrease in the Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCM’s right to make this Home Resort Vacation Point adjustment must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for another Use Day or Days.” (Emphais added.) That must be referring to the same Vacation Home (such as a studio) as the prior paragraph. If moving points from one room size to another was contemplated, that “another Use Day” phrase would not be in the document.

3.The agreement also provides that the total number of points applicable to a unit (usually a combination of rooms) cannot be changed due to such reallocations, which also shows that the total annual applicable to a particular sized room must remain the same, e.g., BWV has units that actually consist of only dedicated studios.

4. Then there are the maximum reallocation provisions, which state that a maximum reallocation of points could potentially occur, meaning every day of the year for a particular room size could cost the same points, but it provides a guaranteed number for reserving each given room size for a night if such occurred, e.g., in BWV 15 points for a standard view studio, 18 for a preferred view, etc. higher numbers for larger rooms. Moreover, to participate in an external exchange program, which requires a member to provide a week to get a week in return, the agreement provides weekly totals of points needed to be paid for every week of the year if there is a maximum reallocation, e.g., 210 points for a BWV standard view 1BR. Those total weekly points are stated to be 7 times the guaranteed daily number provided in the prior paragraph for a maximum reallocation. Thus, total points for the year of a given vacation home, such as a standard view 1BR, need to remain the same. Otherwise, all the maximum reallocation provisions would be incorrect, e.g., raise or lower total annual points applicable to a !BR would result in making that 210 point per week requirement for a BWV standard view 1BR upon a maximum reallocation, false, and one should not assume DVD intended to provide false information in the maximum reallocation provisions in the agreement.

Also of importance is Exhibit A to the Master Cotenancy Agreement, entitled Real Estate Interest and Point Formulation, which describes the method to be used by DVCM to determine total points for the year applicable to a Vacation Home, and , in particular, points out that a major factor for determining how many total points apply to a Vacation home for the year depends on its square footage, meaning total points for the year for any particular vacation home had to vary from those for a larger vacation home by a constant factor that is consistent with the different sizes of those rooms. Thus, it is another provision that indicates DVCM cannot be moving points from one-sized vacation home to another.

Added to the above are: (a) oral statements made at time of sale, particularly involving the earlier resorts, that point changes would occur only to meet changes in seasonal demand and if points were raised for one season they would be lowered by an equal amount for the same room in another season; (b) written representations provided at the time of sale, called a Product Understanding Checklist (or similar) which give DVD’s own summary of the major terms of the POS. Particularly during the sales of earlier resorts, such as BWV, that checklist clearly limited such point-shifting to doing those that address changes in “seasonal demand,” not room-size demand. A copy of one such document is attached.

The above points also reflect how DVC cannot raise the studio and 1BR premium. That clearly cannot be done when the resort also has dedicated studios and 1BRs, but even absent that, the provisions of the membership agreement, including on maximum reallocation, should prevent it.
 

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This entire discussion brings back memories from 10 years ago when a lot of the same type questions were being asked. Unfortunately my notes and files from that time are packed away along with my copy of the BWV POS, but lets see if I can shake some cobwebs loose and help out on a few things.

Note as to the above, if you are actually going to ask why they do not make 1BRs lower due to lower demand and are going to provide the view that DVC should lower 1BRs and thus raise other rooms such as studios, please let them also know that there are many members, including me, who strongly oppose any such shift of points from one room category to another, and believe it would be a violation of the POS, including the DVC Membership Ageement, and, particularly in relation to older resorts, like BWV, it would be violation of written representations made by DVD during the sale of the points which assured buyers that adjustments would be seasonal only and total annual points for a particular room category, such as a studio, would not change.
Do you have an example of this by chance you could share?

If my memory serves .....
The BWV POS states that the yearly total points for a "UNIT" must remain the same.
The term "UNIT" is what causes the problem.
"Unit" is generally used throughput the BWV POS to refer to an area or group of rooms which are then declared into the system as points and sold on percentage basis. These units are not consistent in their make-up in regard to the mix and number of the given type of rooms (ST, 1BR, 2BR or GV). Due to this unbalanced make-up, it is impossible to switch points between "room types" at BWV without putting a "UNIT" out of balance.

DVCM apparently interpreted the term "UNIT" differently when they made their changes 10 years ago and continue to do so.

What I've read - I think from Drusba - is from other resort declarations but that there are no designation or difference in SV, PV or any other units - they points declared are the same for that villa size no matter where it's located and then separate from that DVC has set up the view differences which should then in total equal the sum of the units of that size being declared.

That is correct .. at least as far as BWV was concerned....Each room type (Dedicated Studio, Dedicated 1BR, 2BR Lock-off and GV) have their own declared point value which remains the same regardless of view category.

good question! I've struggled to make any sense out of it besides just being some lower limit; I had several theories but none panned out ...
  • it's not the lowest season in any point chart
  • multiplying 365 days * max reallocation * # villas per size / view ≠ declared points
  • it's not rounding down declared points per unit to the nearest whole number (declared points don't distinguish between views though so this isn't useful for ds, 1b, or 2b)

I seem to recall reading something about MAX point reallocation being based on a 50 or 51 week year.....

Maybe that helps ?
 
<SNIP>
Many assume that because DVC has made some changes in the last 8 years to raise points for a room category while lowering for a different room category, e.g. the treehouses, therefore DVC must have a right to do it. That is an incorrect assumption.
<SNIP>
One could say such an assumption is "wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate". .... Kinda Backwards ;)

BTW ... Nicely written.... I totally agree.
 
If my memory serves .....
The BWV POS states that the yearly total points for a "UNIT" must remain the same.
The term "UNIT" is what causes the problem.
"Unit" is generally used throughput the BWV POS to refer to an area or group of rooms which are then declared into the system as points and sold on percentage basis. These units are not consistent in their make-up in regard to the mix and number of the given type of rooms (ST, 1BR, 2BR or GV). Due to this unbalanced make-up, it is impossible to switch points between "room types" at BWV without putting a "UNIT" out of balance.

DVCM apparently interpreted the term "UNIT" differently when they made their changes 10 years ago and continue to do so.

I agree with your interpretation of the word "Unit". The Deeds that DVD issues explicitly states that you own "an undivided XXXX% interest in Unit YY", which can be tracked back to a group of rooms on the blueprints. How it can otherwise be interpreted just baffles me.
 
Didn't they represent other older resort sales that way as well? I remember OKW tour them stating that specifically, but that preceded BWV. I thought they also said the same for SSR, but didn't they already violate that with the reallocation of points for the treehouse villas situation?

Correct that they did that with SSR and it probably violated the POS. Not a lawyer but someone mentioned precedence above. It doesn't mean the move was right just that nobody challenged it then.
 
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I am very unhappy with the increase in standard studio points for VGF. If I am reading here correctly it was done to effect the one bedrooms? I will be waiting for the answer to this particular question. Thanks for making the call!!!
 



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