Please Help: My Dog Killed My Other Dog Today-Updated Post #166

[PrincessTiff]

Bless your heart. I am SO sorry I can't even imagine.

 

[Poppinsme]

How terrible. I have seen horses kill other horses for territory and for power. Not a pretty site and very traumatic. My heart goes out to you. Nothing is ever black and white or easy. Good luck on your decision, my prayers are with you.

 

[aubriee]

I am so sorry for you and your family. Reading this gave me a cold feeling in the pit of my stomach. I have a feisty little 13 lb. shich tzu who has always been Princess of her domain. Last Jan I got an Akita puppy. The breeder told me that as soon as he'd had his rabies shots I had to take him to a trainer or obedience classes. About a week before he could start at his trainers I caught him carrying my schih tzu around in his mouth. I called the trainer and she told me to stop him immediately as he could easily accidently shake her and break her neck. My vet has also told me to keep a very close eye on them and asks me every time I bring them in, if Niko has showed any aggression toward Maggie. He's also warned me that Akitas are very food aggressive. The problem is Maggie won't leave Niko alone. She loves to play and will bite on his legs and ears until he chases her. Thus far he's never shown a tendency to be aggressive with her and I really believe he would kill anything that even threatened her. I always let her outside first, then let Niko out. As soon as Niko comes in he makes a beeline for their food dishes, at which point Maggie will run from wherever she's at to eat and drink. He always backs off and lets her. It's funny because they each have their own food and water dishes, but both insist on eating out of the same one and refuse to touch the other until the first is empty. Their dishes are just alike, except different colors. Anytime he gets a toy she'll try to pull it away from him and he'll of course pull back. If she gets tired and stops he'll bring the toy to her and drop it in front of her and as soon as she picks it up or starts chewing on it, he'll start pulling again (like she could really get anything away from him he didn't want her to have. Her little 13 lb self wouldn't have much chance against an 80lb Akita). My greatest fear is that he may accidently hurt her while they're playing. He's always chewing and licking on her, but if he stops, she then goes after him until he starts again. Reading about what happened to your precious pets makes me even more scared for my precious Maggie.

As far as your Paisley my vet has said that if Niko ever hurt Maggie that I'd have no choice but to put him down as once a dog attacks another dog he can never be trusted with another dog or human. I'd take pictures of that fence and have your vet examine both dogs very carefully to see if he could determine exactly what happened to your little dog. I wonder if another animal may have attacked your little dog and your big dog may have tried to protect her. I know Niko can chew on Maggie, but he'd fight another animal to the death if they tried to hurt her or invaded their space.

 

[Mermaid02]

Someone posted that those of us who think the dog should be put down "don't understand dog behavior" and I'm sorry that is just not true. I love dogs/animals but I happen to agree with Aubriee's (above poster) veterinarian. I'm sure the OP never thought Paisley would become aggressive enough to KILL Lola- a skirmish now and again over food or a toy is to be expected but to actually kill another animal? My point is how do you trust her around anyone now? Dog or animal. Those of us who think the dog should be put down aren't cold hearted or ignorant.

This is the OP's decision along with her vet and her family and I hope everything works out. Maybe the vet will agree something else got in the yard. I hope so!

 

[barkley]

my sympathies to the op.

as a victim of a dog attack/bite by a dog the owner assured animal control had NEVER shown any aggression towards other animals/people i have to express that i would be hesitant to have any animal that has shown any agression or 'high strung'/territorial responsiveness.

i was fortunate in my incident-the dog had always been kept secured in the back yard of the owner's home but managed to 'make a break for it' when someone (a utility person) was entering the backyard. it took off on a dead run accross the property and lunged at me (i was on the sidewalk ACROSS the street from the property)-fortunatly i saw it out of the corner of my eye and raised my arm in hopes of guarding my neck/face while it was in mid air. instead of latching onto my neck it bit down on the portion of my arm covering my neck. there was nothing to predict the attack, the owners had taken reasonable precautions to keep their dog in the yard-but it did nothing to lessen the severity of my physical and emotional wounds (i love dogs-but i get very fearful when i see one roaming the neighborhood unattended, just brings it all back). if i had learned the dog that attacked me had any history of biting a human (even in the course of a feeding scuffle) or had killed another animal (i know you're still looking into other possibilities re. this) it would have seriously caused me even greater upset.

hopefully your vet can resolve your questions regarding this issue-and counsel you on the best decision. one thing you may wish to consider however, is some places require a vet to report to animal control any instances they become aware of involving dog bits/dog attacks that result in animal deaths. these place the dog on 'known' listing that can be utlized for owner prosecution by local authorities should the dog ever become known to attack/bite in the future (and at that point the decision is out of the owner's hands-the dogs are generaly automaticly put down after the rabies quarantine period).

 

[Christine]

Thank you again everyone for your kind thoughts and advice. I just woke up this morning and got right on the computer. I had a very sleepless night, as you can imagine, and my son (who is 12) wanted to sleep with me all night. So hubby was kicked out the bed.

I am a bit worried for my son and I hope he turns around today. He did not eat anything ALL day. I didn't want to eat myself but have some health issues that required me to stuff something in my mouth. I hope he is better today. He keeps begging me to get another dog--a bigger dog--one that Paisley can't hurt. I asked him why he wants to replace Lola so soon and he said that he didn't but he just couldn't bear not seeing her or hearing her footsteps on the floor. I explained to him that, as long as we have Paisley, we cannot EVER have another animal.

In response to some of the questions that popped up last night:

I spent some time out in the yard last night, just staring at the fence. I still cannot figure it out. The chicken wire is pulled down and it appears that Lola could have stuck her neck through one of the slats of the fence. Where her neck may have stretched through the fence, there is some blood on the fence but on the outer side of the board, and then some below on the ground (there was a gutter runoff thing that had blood on it). I would be really surprised, given her wound, that there was no blood on the inside of the fence. To me it looks as if she was trying to stick her neck through and get out. The amount of blood is very small and is not consistent at all with the wound that I saw on her neck. Her body was found approximately 20 yards from that fence, back into the middle of the yard, so she was not near the fence site at that point that she was down. There is also no trail of blood from the fence to the area she was laying in. There was no blood anywhere else on the ground, but where she was laying.

Paisley had blood right below her neck and on her chest. That area of her fur is white so it is easy to see. I assumed, at first, that it was because she was violently fighting with Lola. It wasn't until my husband came home and washed her down that we saw the big wound on her chest. In my shock, I cannot remember if there was any blood on her muzzle. I'm sure there was none on her legs or feet.

As far as the aggression issues--okay, Lola was a JRT. She could be extremely aggressive outdoors or with her toys. She loved her little toys and would grab them, growl, and shake them to death. She also loved to run out and chase squirrels. We have a few drainage pipes in the yard and every day she would run out and "check" them, bite them, and growl into them.

When her and Paisley would be let outside together after they had been indoors a lot, both of them would go running for squirrels. Lola was always nipping at Paisley's legs on the way. Paisley never acted like she cared. Lola used to try to play with Paisley in the house. Paisley isn't one of the playful dogs and she would ignore her. Finally, Lola just stopped trying and it was rare that they would play around. It was funny because just last week, Paisley actually was trying to get Lola to play. Paisley's expressions are very easily read and I could tell by her body language that she was happy and having fun. She kept swatting at Lola but Lola wouldn't play.

As for the food aggression--I guess Lola had a bit of it though I never, ever saw her even try to make a move on Paisley. Lola was the type of dog that if you gave her a treat and you looked like you might take it, she would growl at you. Paisley would not. As I said earlier, I fed them in separate rooms and I would stay down there with them. I would fill up Lola's bowl. She would wait until I filled up Paisley's bowl. When Paisley started eating, then Lola would start eating. Often times, Paisley didn't finish her food (Lola always did). Paisley would leave her feeding area and go lay on her mat that was in another area of the basement. When Lola would try to come out of her feeding room, Paisley would growl at her because Lola was "passing" by her dish. I suspect this is what happened that time I was out of town and my dad got caught up in the mess. Lola had no qualms about going for Paisley's food if she was not finished with it. So, if Paisley didn't eat, I always picked up her dish and put it out of sight.

I say Lola was submissive because if you even gave a hint of trying to discipline her, she immediately fell on her back and exposed her stomach. Even if you said "Lola, what did you do" and gave her a look. She always took a "backseat" to Paisley so to speak and constantly deffered to her on what path to take in the yard.

I really don't know what to make of that behavior. Does it sound as if they were both aggressive?

At this point, I am still about 95% sure that this was a dog-on-dog attack. I know my husband is very hopeful it was something else. I guess I won't ever know what happened in that 30 minutes. I wish so hard that I would not have cleaned yesterday and just went out to run errands. Lola would be here with me know.

And for what it's worth--Lola was about 10 lbs, had very little hair on her, and this weird thin skin, especially on the neck area. Paisley is close to 50 lbs, is VERY strong and it wouldn't have taken much to inflict this type of wound on Lola. To me, her wound was a clear puncture. The top and bottom punctures were aligned in such a way that I think the top and bottom canine teeth did it. I think she took one bite on the neck that easily went through the skin and that was it.

I'm still wrestling with what to do. The vet tech had told me about one family who had a dog they wanted to put down, I believe for excessive barking. I believe that she said my vet referred them out to some program and it worked and they were able to keep the dog.

I'm not sure if my vet will look a Lola's body tomorrow or not. She is up there at his office, in the freezer . We have the option to go get her and bury her in the yard or do the cremation. I am a bit concerned about putting her in the yard as I don't know what Paisley will do and I don't think my husband is up for doing the burial, but who knows.

I just wish I could stop feeling so awful. I cried yesterday for at least 8 hours, was crying in bed. I had to pull myself together for my son and stop crying in front of him because I think it's making him worse. But already this morning, I can feel the tears again and I'm just feeling physically ill. I know I can't make it stop but I feel so horrible. And I know that I will forever blame myself.

 

[snels]

I don't have any advice for you. I am sorry that you lost your dog. You have a tough decision to make about the remaining dog.

 

[DawnCt1]

Someone posted that those of us who think the dog should be put down "don't understand dog behavior" and I'm sorry that is just not true. I love dogs/animals but I happen to agree with Aubriee's (above poster) veterinarian. I'm sure the OP never thought Paisley would become aggressive enough to KILL Lola- a skirmish now and again over food or a toy is to be expected but to actually kill another animal? My point is how do you trust her around anyone now? Dog or animal. Those of us who think the dog should be put down aren't cold hearted or ignorant.

This is the OP's decision along with her vet and her family and I hope everything works out. Maybe the vet will agree something else got in the yard. I hope so!

I think one major difference is that Akitas have a reputation for aggression and beagles do not. JRTs have a reputation for tenacity and they like to be the Alpha. One doesn't know what preceeded the incident. For example, would you assume that two male dogs that fought over a female in heat were aggressive and needed to be put down or would you see that as a hormonal response that they shouldn't have been exposed to?

 

[juligrl]

I think one major difference is that Akitas have a reputation for aggression and beagles do not. JRTs have a reputation for tenacity and they like to be the Alpha. One doesn't know what preceeded the incident. For example, would you assume that two male dogs that fought over a female in heat were aggressive and needed to be put down or would you see that as a hormonal response that they shouldn't have been exposed to?

Just to add to that, JRTs do have a well documented history of inter-breed aggression. You're exactly right, nobody really knows exactly what may have instigated the dog to act out.

My sister was bit by our Scottish Terrier when she (my sister) was 12 (dog was 7). Piper (the dog) was resting on my moms lap and my sister came crawling over to my mom. Dog sprang into defense mode and nipped at my sister. Unfortunately she caught her lip. No, we did not have our dog put down. My sister never went crawling across the floor to a sleeping dog again.
You live you learn. Dogs don't act maliciously, they on instinct.

 

[barkley]

I think one major difference is that Akitas have a reputation for aggression and beagles do not. JRTs have a reputation for tenacity and they like to be the Alpha. One doesn't know what preceeded the incident. For example, would you assume that two male dogs that fought over a female in heat were aggressive and needed to be put down or would you see that as a hormonal response that they shouldn't have been exposed to?

the beagle information sites also warn that beagles should not be trusted to safely interact with other household pets unless they were trained to socialize from a very early age-and even then they are to be monitored when interacting with smaller animals (and small children) because of a propensity to use their mouths allot in play (it's warned smaller animals or children can be accidently injured by a beagle in the course of normal play).

since this was a shelter beagle i'm wondering if it was ever given socialization training at an early enuf age. or perhaps it was'nt raised around other animals? don't know how all shelters work but the ones around here do a huge evaluation based on the animal's known history as well as the breed's own tendancies/idiocyncrasis. based on that they decide if the dog is adoptable and what type of household to place it in. they are very upfront about what type of household compostion the dog should live in-and they will totaly exclude adopters whose households don't suit the dog's needs (a biggie is one with other dogs, cats or small kids). there are a fair amount of dogs that are deemed 'unadoptable' because of their inability to socialize with others.

 

[DawnCt1]

the beagle information sites also warn that beagles should not be trusted to safely interact with other household pets unless they were trained to socialize from a very early age-and even then they are to be monitored when interacting with smaller animals (and small children) because of a propensity to use their mouths allot in play (it's warned smaller animals or children can be accidently injured by a beagle in the course of normal play).

since this was a shelter beagle i'm wondering if it was ever given socialization training at an early enuf age. or perhaps it was'nt raised around other animals? don't know how all shelters work but the ones around here do a huge evaluation based on the animal's known history as well as the breed's own tendancies/idiocyncrasis. based on that they decide if the dog is adoptable and what type of household to place it in. they are very upfront about what type of household compostion the dog should live in-and they will totaly exclude adopters whose households don't suit the dog's needs (a biggie is one with other dogs, cats or small kids). there are a fair amount of dogs that are deemed 'unadoptable' because of their inability to socialize with others.

You are right but I was more focused on the concern of aggression towards humans. If Paisley were my dog and I wanted to keep her, she would be the only pet in the house. I think that is the concession that has to be made. If that is something that Christine can live with, then its a viable choice. That is always the risk of shelter adoptions. Dogs end up in shelters because the owner doesn't want them put down and perhaps aren't honest about the history.

 

[Christine]

the beagle information sites also warn that beagles should not be trusted to safely interact with other household pets unless they were trained to socialize from a very early age-and even then they are to be monitored when interacting with smaller animals (and small children) because of a propensity to use their mouths allot in play (it's warned smaller animals or children can be accidently injured by a beagle in the course of normal play).

since this was a shelter beagle i'm wondering if it was ever given socialization training at an early enuf age. or perhaps it was'nt raised around other animals? don't know how all shelters work but the ones around here do a huge evaluation based on the animal's known history as well as the breed's own tendancies/idiocyncrasis. based on that they decide if the dog is adoptable and what type of household to place it in. they are very upfront about what type of household compostion the dog should live in-and they will totaly exclude adopters whose households don't suit the dog's needs (a biggie is one with other dogs, cats or small kids). there are a fair amount of dogs that are deemed 'unadoptable' because of their inability to socialize with others.

I got my beagle mix from our county animal shelter. She was six months old at the time. She actually doesn't look much like a beagle and more like a Blue Tick Hound which is what my vet said she is more of. The shelter called her a "beagle mix." We have all her papers from the previous owners. It seems she was owned by a woman starting when she was an 8 week old puppy. I can't really tell how long the woman had her but I have shot records through PetSmart. She was then turned over to a the county animal shelter (maybe she was about 5 months old or so). She was adopted out by a family with two small toddlers. They kept her for 2 days and returned her to the shelter because "she was jumping on the children." She had probably been back at the shelter for a few weeks when we got her. At that point she was about 20 lbs and much smaller than she is now but she had all her permanent teeth, so I'm guess she was about 6 months of age. The only problems we had with her was that she had a pretty bad case of submissive peeing. We found that with lots of love, discipline, and a stable home, that disappeared. She was definitely a ball of energy and ran to everyone. Of course my kids were older ( believe about 6 and 9 at the time) so the jumping wasn't an issue. We took her to dog obedience school right away, socialized her there as best we could (she did not like one particular dog there--a German Shepherd).

All in all, Paisley has been a beautifully behaved dog--one of the best behaved dogs I've ever had. But she does have "other dog" issues.

Occasionally my in-laws will visit with their Newfoundland (who is 125 lbs). Paisley has been out in the yard with him also and did not care for him (I could tell by body language) but she never tried to fight him at all. Conversely, Lola LOVED and ADORED my in-laws dog and couldn't get enough of him (but very submissive with him).

I just don't know what to think.

I'm not sure that it has even occurred to Paisley that something has happened. She doesn't appear to be "looking" for Lola or curious. She has been trying to hang around me and get me to pet her. I'm trying but it's so hard not to feel disloyal to Lola. I don't hate Paisley but I just can't lay down and hug her either at this point.

 

[Christine]

You are right but I was more focused on the concern of aggression towards humans. If Paisley were my dog and I wanted to keep her, she would be the only pet in the house. I think that is the concession that has to be made. If that is something that Christine can live with, then its a viable choice. That is always the risk of shelter adoptions. Dogs end up in shelters because the owner doesn't want them put down and perhaps aren't honest about the history.

The decision is definitely made on that. We work full-time anyway and it was probably a mistake to have two dogs in the first place. My selfishness and my "love at first sight" with Lola got in the way of my rational thinking. Even when I knew years ago that there were some problems between the two, I let my love for Lola get in the way of trying to do what was best for her. It was totally selfish on my part, but I have that type of weakness with animals.

It's funny but I can be so totally rational with my kids and make good decisions even if they are hard and hurt me. For some reason, I just can't do it with my dogs.

With this issue with Paisley, the answer might be to put her down, but honestly I don't know if I can and mentally survive it. I know that sounds bad and awful but I don't know if I can do it.

 

[Tigger&Belle]

Christine, I would consult with a trainer who specializes with dogs who have "issues" before making any decision. We did that with one of our dogs. One private session and we made so much progress. Sheena has dog aggression issues, although not at all with our dog (they play roughly, but not aggressively and even the cats can take her food away), but she had problems with other dogs. She still does, but I know how to react and what to do to head anything off at the pass.

Hang in there!

 

[Buckalew11]

Christine, I have no words of wisdom. What you are going through is very traumatic and very hard. Please don't beat ourself up with guilt, although that is a natural response to any death. "If I had only..." You are not at fault, it was a horrible accident. However, I would be very cautious of Paisley around any other animals and children. I am not sure how I, personally, would feel about having her around period but you know your dog and your feelings for her.
Sending hugs to you. What you are dealing with is so very, very hard.

I see from scrolling down and reading a few of the posts ahead of this that you are struggling right now with the loyalty and love issue. My thoughts and prayers are with you. You have diffult days and decisions to make. Take your time making the decision--unless she shows aggression in your home. I am so sorry.

 

[Christine]

I've updated my OP (again) and added a picture of Paisley on the deck with my DD. To give you an idea of size, Lola weighed about 10 lbs and could walk directly under Paisley's body. Paisley weighs about 45 lbs average.

 

[Mermaid02]

If she is part blue tick- the "hunt" instinct may be very strong. I had a friend who had a dog who was half bluetick and half coon hound. She could not be trusted around other animals and eventually this turned into children. I'm not saying this to scare you- it's all true.

 

[Blondie]

Yikes, I don't even know what to say. What a horrible ordeal you've gone through. I don't know what I'd do in your situation but just the fact that you can come here and type out your feelings is good therapy in helping with the grieving process.

Hang in there.

 

[singingpixie]

Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry! I can't even imagine how hysterical I would be if I were in your position. My first thought is, has the other dog ever been checked medically to see if something is wrong? Sometimes if a dog is in pain it can be more aggressive... or it could be a brain problem. Whether or not you decide to put him down, it would be good to look into what might have triggered it. I'm so sorry for your loss!

 

[LoraJ]

I haven't read but the first page of replies but I am a bit disturbed about the rush to put Paisley down. Obviously there were some territorial issues between these two dogs. It probably means that you will have to be a one dog family and if you are okay with that, Paisley is good with your family, guests, etc. then that is the answer. If she has shown aggression towards humans than that's another thing.

I agree with Dawn here.

So sorry you are dealing with this.