Please Help: My Dog Killed My Other Dog Today-Updated Post #166

[Christine]

I understand how you feel. And quite honestly, I would imagine that the Vet. would be able to squeeze in a phone call to you between appointments, considering how servere the circumstances were.

I'm kind of hoping he will look at Lola's body prior to calling me.

 

[noodleknitter]

I have no advice. I am just so sorry that you had to go thru such a horrific ordeal. I hope that you are able to talk with your vet soon.

 

[Martha7]

I'm so sorry this happened. As an animal lover as well, I know that we always want the best for our pets. If you had been irresponsible, you would have given your dog back to the shelter when the dogs started to have problems getting along, but you tried to do the best you could for both dogs. Please don't blame yourself, we can't control everything that happens between animals, or even our kids at times! Hope everything works out OK for you.

 

[Us3]

I'm so very sorry to hear about your loss. Please accept hugs from my family to yours!

I didn't read all of the post, but I did read where someone suggested a dog behavior specialist. Dog aggression DOES NOT mean human aggression. Could a dog be both, yes. But if they are dog aggressive, it does not always mean human aggression AT ALL. I'm sure you have been told this in the other post. I'm not an expert, but I have studied terrier and bully breeds for the past 14 years and know about their traits. I hope this releaves any fear you may be feeling toward your terrier.

If it helps at all, learning and understanding dog aggression in the other dog *may* help in your grieving process.

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss and would be happy to email with you about the dog aggression further if you would like!

Sonya

 

[Christine]

I'm so very sorry to hear about your loss. Please accept hugs from my family to yours!

I didn't read all of the post, but I did read where someone suggested a dog behavior specialist. Dog aggression DOES NOT mean human aggression. Could a dog be both, yes. But if they are dog aggressive, it does not always mean human aggression AT ALL. I'm sure you have been told this in the other post. I'm not an expert, but I have studied terrier and bully breeds for the past 14 years and know about their traits. I hope this releaves any fear you may be feeling toward your terrier.

If it helps at all, learning and understanding dog aggression in the other dog *may* help in your grieving process.

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss and would be happy to email with you about the dog aggression further if you would like!

Sonya

Thanks, I will be keeping that in mind.

FWIW, I don't know if I was confusing in my post but the pet who died was the "terrier" while the one who inflicted the fatal wound was a hound mix. I'm not sure if that is a "bully" or not.

As my husband keeps reminding me and the kids, even though Lola was very small, she was a fighter and nipped at my other dog often. It seemed to us to be playful, but maybe in "dog language" it was an aggressive behavior. Paisley nipped back but was much bigger.

 

[Christine]

Okay, I've finally gotten my callbacks.

First,the vet called. He had been in appointments all day and did not get to look at Lola. I explained the whole situation to him and my concerns about Paisley's possible aggression toward humans. I told him that, while up at his office on Saturday, one of his technicians asked me "What are you going to do about the other dog?" I told him that I had responded to her "What do you mean?" I told the vet that she had implied that I needed to figure out what I was going to do. The vet got a bit testy with me (which kind of bothered me because he's never like that). He said "Are you telling me that this woman asked you if you were going to euthanize your other dog?" I told him "No, that is not what she said but it is what I gleaned from her tone." He then told me that I must be mistaken, he has known this woman for years and she would never say that. Okay, whatever, we moved on.

So, he tells me that dog-on-dog aggression does NOT automatically lead to human aggression and he thought it would be ridiculous for me to even *think* about putting Paisley down if I felt comfortable with how she is with people. You know, I don't even think he would do it. We then talked about what may have happened in the yard. He is going to do a small autopsy on Lola tomorrow just to try to confirm what kind of wound she has so that I can get some kind of answer but he said we will probably never be able to know what/who did this or if it was Paisley.

Shortly after that, the trainer called and I went through the whole thing again. She had a LOT more explanations for what could have happened between the two dogs. It will be hard for me to explain because I don't remember all of her terms, but she said that there is often an issue with having a larger dog and a very small dog. The larger dog often doesn't interpret the smaller dog as, say, a "real dog" and can often view it as prey. Usually this doesn't happen, but sometimes an instinct will kick in for some reason and the larger dog loses it. She said they very well may have be tracking something together and Paisley's hunting instinct turned to Lola.

The second issue was something called "predatory something or other" (sorry). She said that a dog can be sitting in the yard minding it's own business and the other dog could be at another point in the yard chasing a ball or just running. If the one dog kind of "catches" the sight of the dog in it's peripheral vision, it can kick off some "predatory prey" instinct and the dog will immediately kick into hunt mode.

The third issue is just having a dog that doesn't like other animals and is threatened by them. She believes that option #1 or #2 was probably what happened. She thinks that if #3 was the issue we would have had tons more problems.

It seems that the biggest problem was Lola's size coupled with the fact that Paisley is a hunting animal.

I told the trainer that, for my own peace of mind, I would like to have Paisley evaluated for human aggression. She said they regularly do this and it takes about an hour. So I have an appointment this Thursday afternoon to have that done and I guess I'll see where we go from there.

I somehow thought I would feel better after hearing from them, but I guess that was a bit too hopeful. I still feel like crap but, at least, I have a plan now and I suppose that will get me going.

 

[Aidensmom]

I'm glad you've been able to get a plan in place. I truly hope everything works out well.

 

[kittythepoohbear]

I won't even try to offer advice on this situation, but I am glad that you were able to get some good advice from the vet and trainer. You and your family are in my thoughts and I will say a little prayer for Lola.

 

[Disney Doll]

You know, we love our pets so muc, and they become like such family members, that we forget that they are animals and will react on instinct sometimes, which is what the trainers seems to be saying. Although the fence and Paisley's injury still leave me a bit puzzled.

I think your plan to have Paisley evaluated for human aggression is a good one.

 

[mickeyboat]

I don't have much to say, but I can see how this is tormenting you, and I'm sorry. I think you are doing the right thing, and I hope you have a satisfactory resolution soon.

Denae

 

[JunieJay]

I'm glad you got some answers Christine.

 

[hiwaygal]

Christine,

I'm so impressed with your decision to have Paisley evaluated for human aggression! That's an excellent resource to have! My guess is that for some reason there was just something with Paisley and Lola and it escalted to a tragic ending. But I'm sure Paisley will be fine with being just an "only" dog. Do keep us posted.

And give yourself a little more time to grieve...it will get easier with time, but if you feel like it is just taking too much out of you, talk to your doctor and maybe they can offer advice or help.

 

[Cindy B]

I'm glad to hear that you have a plan. As for the small dog, bigger dog thoeries, that does make sense.

I had a larger Female lab and male mini poodle. These were my MIL's dogs and she got the mini poodle as a puppy when the Lab was 10-11 years old. The Lab was pretty docile, but I could always tell that there was a tiny bit of resentment between the Queen old lady Lab and the new male puppy. I guess since the poodle didn't grow too much from puppy size, the Lab didn't feel jealous or insignificant.

However, when we got the dogs after my MIL's passing, I could see sometimes the Lab tending to chase after the poodle when he was running. I guess in the Labs older eyesight, the poodle may have looked like a rabbit or a cat. (The lab loved to hunt cats!) I observed her once or twice sort of stopping herself short as to not to hurt the poodle. The two of them did some noisy playing sometimes--however they for the most part got along well. As the Lab was dying, the poodle sort of distanced himself from her.

I hope the best for your dog. I know its a hard thing and I hope that you do get some answers.

 

[robinb]

I'm so sorry! {{hugs}}

I'm glad that you will have some answers as soon as the vet looks at Lola and the trainer looks at Paisley. I am concerned about both initial explanations that the trainer is giving you. Both of them have one dog mistaking the other dog as "prey". If Lola was too low in Paisley's pack order and wasn't a "real dog" I would be afraid that Paisley would feel the same about children not being "real people". She may not feel that way your kids, but what about your kid's friends or younger siblings? The second explanation also concerns me. My 7 year old loves to run around our yard with the dog ... what would happen if a child suddenly became "prey"? Please talk to the trainer about these issues.

Personally, I would put Paisley down. I would never be able to trust her or forgive her for what she had done. I could never look at her without thinking of her killing Lola. That's just me.

 

[Tigger&Belle]

And you'll have to trust your gut about what the trainer says, too. When we had Sheena at the trainer for her aggressiveness towards strange dogs (she's fine with our dog), she gave a bark when another trainer came down the steps on the other side of the large room. The trainer said that was a sign of human aggression, which we'd never seen any signs of. Since then we've watched her very closely (this was a couple years ago) and she's never shown any signs, we can take food from her dish, bones from her, my 6yo can let her outside and she doesn't go out the door until he has "released" her (showing that she respects him and knows that she is not alpha over him), etc. I thought that the trainer gave me some good tools to work with Sheena, but I did not buy what she said about the human aggression. Hopefully you'll have a better trainer--the one I went to was lacking personality.

I do think that it's good that you are really thinking this through!

 

[Christine]

I'm so sorry! {{hugs}}

I'm glad that you will have some answers as soon as the vet looks at Lola and the trainer looks at Paisley. I am concerned about both initial explanations that the trainer is giving you. Both of them have one dog mistaking the other dog as "prey". If Lola was too low in Paisley's pack order and wasn't a "real dog" I would be afraid that Paisley would feel the same about children not being "real people". She may not feel that way your kids, but what about your kid's friends or younger siblings? The second explanation also concerns me. My 7 year old loves to run around our yard with the dog ... what would happen if a child suddenly became "prey"? Please talk to the trainer about these issues.

Personally, I would put Paisley down. I would never be able to trust her or forgive her for what she had done. I could never look at her without thinking of her killing Lola. That's just me.

These are definitely issues that I am going to address. And I probably didn't relay the trainer's information nearly as succinctly as she did. I don't think it is that easy for the dog to make a mistake about other dogs or even children, but in this particular case, all the stars might have been in alignment (or misalignment) so to speak. When I explained the whole relationship both the vet and the trainer seemed to view it as a common thing with a big/little dog.

Also, dogs most often do view children as lower in pack. A lot of it is based on size. I have already seen a change in Paisley's behavior toward my son. He is no longer the little 6 year old that he was when we got Paisley. She would not mind his commands then and considered herself "above" him. Now that he is almost 12 years old and 5'2", I have noticed that he issues commands and she treats him like she has always treated the rest of us in the household.

The only fortunate thing for me is that we do not have children running around our yard--ever. We work full-time, busy on weekends, etc., and we haven't had kids over in awhile, although my DD (who is 15) has had a someone over twice this year. I still stand by the fact that Paisley adores my DD especially, and seems to love everyone who comes in the house. She constantly nudges people for them to pet her and she is genuinely happy to see her.

I understand that many people would have trust issues with the dog. I have them myself which is why I am going to get as much information on this dog that I can get. But, alternatively, I cannot put a dog down without a bit more evidence against her. I have tons of evidence that she is not good with other animals. There will never be another one in this house. Period. Until someone can show me some aggression towards humans, I cannot euthanize her. But, I will say, that if I had a younger child at home, I might be a bit more nervous.

 

[Christine]

And you'll have to trust your gut about what the trainer says, too. When we had Sheena at the trainer for her aggressiveness towards strange dogs (she's fine with our dog), she gave a bark when another trainer came down the steps on the other side of the large room. The trainer said that was a sign of human aggression, which we'd never seen any signs of. Since then we've watched her very closely (this was a couple years ago) and she's never shown any signs, we can take food from her dish, bones from her, my 6yo can let her outside and she doesn't go out the door until he has "released" her (showing that she respects him and knows that she is not alpha over him), etc. I thought that the trainer gave me some good tools to work with Sheena, but I did not buy what she said about the human aggression. Hopefully you'll have a better trainer--the one I went to was lacking personality.

I do think that it's good that you are really thinking this through!

T&B,
This is where we will be going. Check it out: www.allaboutdogsinc.com.

Both Paisley and Lola had obedience training with them many years ago and I found all of their trainers to be the nicest people. At the time, I had never met the owner but she is the one who called me today.

 

[eclectics]

But, alternatively, I cannot put a dog down without a bit more evidence against her. I have tons of evidence that she is not good with other animals. There will never be another one in this house. Period. Until someone can show me some aggression towards humans, I cannot euthanize her. But, I will say, that if I had a younger child at home, I might be a bit more nervous.

That sure sounds like a reasonable statement to me, unless you get a horrible evaluation from the trainer. If you feel uneasy you can always put Paisley in a separate room if you have young children visiting, and as you already said, you won't have any other animals in the house.

 

[Tigger&Belle]

Christine, the whole big dog/little dog thing is very interesting to me because we have two dogs, but Magic is old and when we he dies I've kind of thought of getting a small dog, but have been hesitant to do so, wondering how Sheena would do with a small dog. She's about 55-60 pounds and Magic is about 45 pounds. We have cats, but they are indoors, so I can supervise them and there are areas of the house that the cats can go to to get away from Sheena (upstairs, on the counters... ). She plays with them and is good with them, but I have wondered how she would be with a small dog, especially since she loves to play with Magic and dogs can play rough.

The training place that we brought Sheena has a very good reputation and I think it was that particular trainer and not the place in general. I'm glad that you have a place that you feel comfortable with to bring your dog to!

 

[fabshelly]

You didn't do what I would have done, but it looks like you did what was best for you, and I'm glad.

You'll see and cuddle Lola again, someday. And she and Paisley will get along with each other. Them's the rules in heaven!