Please Don't Bash The DDP!

[bicker]

Some people don't like the DDP, that's fine, but don't be arrogant about it and act like that because you don't like it, Disney should change it to suit your wants and needs. And don't be arrogant about the fact that a favorite on a menu that was removed might have been something, someone else would never had eaten and was glad to see it gone.

Disney listens to the majority and right now the majority likes the DDP.

 

[bicker]

Does the fact that Disney is removing the gratuity from the DDP effective January 2008 change anyone's feelings towards the DDP? (Gratuity to be removed from DDP!!)

I would be more reasonable to wait until it is actually announced by Disney before presuming that what we've heard from inside sources is true.

 

[bicker]

Disney also uses this site as the cheapest market research out there.

For ideas, perhaps. For determining what guests like or don't like, no.

Online communities have their place, but determining good and bad isn't one of them. Online communities are overly-dominated by extremists, and never provide any insight into what the Average Joe feels, wants or is likely to do.

 

[bicker]

Many of the people "bashing" the DDP don't like the fact that the restaurants are now crowded and it's harder to get last minute ADRs. Most restaurant owners look at that as a positive.

And that is a fundamental break-down in agreement. I bet some people actually voice that as part of their complaints, "The restaurants are too crowded," not realizing that they're basically promoting the perspective that they're trying to complain about.

 

[bicker]

There are a few restaurants that are not on the plan. There are two that I know of that went from 2 TS credits to 1. I believe they went to 1 credit in order to bring more people to the house. While there are those who would not mind paying more for "high end" dishes, there may not be enough to do this to consistently in order to justify the cost of ingredients kept on hand.

Absolutely, and I think a lot of people out there forget that some of the restaurants were 2TS -- were finer dining -- and then were switched to 1TS and more casual dining, in order to address lack of interest on the part of guests. Those restaurants would still be top-shelf restaurants if guests were interesting in them being so. We weren't. We wanted more of the 1TS variety of restaurants. Not every single one of us, but more than enough of us to overwhelm the perspective of those few who want things the other way.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

We used the DDP on our last trip and loved the convenience. As we are normally off-site guestss, the DDP has worked to keep us on-site to use the plan. Please help me understand WHY the quality of food and service has deteriorated. Exactly what is the "formula for tip sharing". And why would this new plan prompt chefs to leave? I'm not trying to bash either side of this debate, I truly would like to understand.

Quality has deteriorated because the head chef at each restaurant has lost the right to purchase from their preferred vendors (with the recent marketing push of the DDP's). Now Disney chef's orders from a very specific pool. One (now former) Chef explained to me the wide variety of options available and in direct response to a question, "no, his steak would probably not come from the same place as other Disney restaurants as each chef has favorite vendor specifically chosen in relation to the type of cuisine he was creating."

Service has deteriorated because virtually all of the professional servers and managers that I once new have all moved to other prime Orlando locations because of policy changes they had already felt or knew was coming. This isn't to say there aren't still fine servers, there are but it seems odd that all of the best that I knew left in very rapid succession right around the time the DDP's were starting to be pushed.

The tip sharing isn't something I know for a fact, but I have heard second hand, that they now pool all tips to be shared by a very large pool equally meaning special personal tips no longer were kept by the outstanding server. Regardless, if Disney eliminates the gratuity from the DDP yet continues to push and have success with the plan, I think servers will be once again looking for work elsewhere.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

For ideas, perhaps. For determining what guests like or don't like, no.

Online communities have their place, but determining good and bad isn't one of them. Online communities are overly-dominated by extremists, and never provide any insight into what the Average Joe feels, wants or is likely to do.

I beg to differ. Not only do I believe that Disney pays attention I think the hulabaloo that surrounded the discontinuance of Early Morning Hours a couple of years ago is proof positive. Disney made this change and the DIS went nuts. This policy lasted a very short time. Now perhaps they also received outside, personal complaints but in all seriousness most people are never concerned enough to write a real letter about something as trivial as a policy that would affect them for a couple days on vacation. No I think the DIS directly influenced that turnaround.

Further, I believe we have right here in our midst paid Disney CM's posting and monitoring. They won't speak up of course but I do have my reasons for believing this. Therefore I will continue to speak up for what I think is right.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Lack of interest on the part of guests, most likely. While a few vocal people in this thread might like more capacity directed that way, they won't fill a restaurant as readily as the alternatives which Disney does offer. That's why Disney offers the number of fine dining restaurants that they do: It matches the interest on the part of guests. If more guests wanted better restaurants, then Disney would provide that. If less guests wanted better restaurants, then Disney would convert more of the existing top-notch restaurants into casual dining restaurants. The guests are 100% completely driving these things.

Makes no sense to me. If Disney could have the best of both worlds, the volume, room filling DDP guests and the niche, pay through the nose, wine loving, foodies why wouldn't they? You can believe that Disney is just responding to the data they have, simply doing good work if you choose. I believe they have dropped the ball and are catering to one demographic because it's EASIER money even if the margins are not as profitable. I don't believe Disney is all that well run these days in that they are putting all of their eggs in one basket. Eventually this will fail be it when the economy dives, a terrorist attack happens, gas rolls to $5.00 per gallon or another hurricane seasons wreaks havoc. Disney is ignoring the contingencies for the sake of the easy game and IMO, and I have no problem with your disagreeing, this is a bad strategy.

 

[Lewisc]

Agreed. Disney would only care if a number of potential guests decided not to stay on-site, or at least decided not to purchase the dining plan, because they couldn't get enough ADR's.

I think the ADR problem is over-stated. ADRs at Restaurants like Le Cellier, CRT and Chef Mickey's were tough to get even before the current dining plan.

I was able to get ADRs at restaurants like CG, Chefs de France, Kona and Mama Melrose at short notice, even during free dining.

And that is a fundamental break-down in agreement. I bet some people actually voice that as part of their complaints, "The restaurants are too crowded," not realizing that they're basically promoting the perspective that they're trying to complain about.

 

[Lewisc]

Disney thinks V&A and the non Disney owned restaurants such as Bistro, Il Mulino, Shula's and blueZoo fill that niche.

It's not clear if the new restaurant in the AK will participate with the dining plan. It is rumored Concourse Steakhouse is moving to another location and will be changing it's name/menu. Disney could try to run it somewhere in between V&A and the current signature restaurants and not include it in the dining planbut I question if there are enough customers.

Makes no sense to me. If Disney could have the best of both worlds, the volume, room filling DDP guests and the niche, pay through the nose, wine loving, foodies why wouldn't they? You can believe that Disney is just responding to the data they have, simply doing good work if you choose. I believe they have dropped the ball and are catering to one demographic because it's EASIER money even if the margins are not as profitable. I don't believe Disney is all that well run these days in that they are putting all of their eggs in one basket. Eventually this will fail be it when the economy dives, a terrorist attack happens, gas rolls to $5.00 per gallon or another hurricane seasons wreaks havoc. Disney is ignoring the contingencies for the sake of the easy game and IMO, and I have no problem with your disagreeing, this is a bad strategy.

 

[apostolic4life]

Quality has deteriorated because the head chef at each restaurant has lost the right to purchase from their preferred vendors (with the recent marketing push of the DDP's). Now Disney chef's orders from a very specific pool. One (now former) Chef explained to me the wide variety of options available and in direct response to a question, "no, his steak would probably not come from the same place as other Disney restaurants as each chef has favorite vendor specifically chosen in relation to the type of cuisine he was creating."

The ideal would be for each dining venue to operate as an independant restaurant and make purchases as they see fit, but as we all know, Disney is a corporation and has to answer to shareholders on the profitability issue. Can they be profitable run as independant venues? Yes. Would they be more profitable if they were run like a chain restaurant? Yes. I do not think the DDP is the primary reasoning behind the switch to a chain-like business model for most on-property venues; I think the DDP was designed to generate profits for the business model they ultimately decided to go with. IMHO.

As for chefs leaving because of stifled creativity or lack of purchasing control, I can see that happening. Those things would only be a factor for the Executive Chefs leaving; I have never seen any establishment give those controls to the Sous Chef or any other lower level chef in the brigade. If chefs other than the Executive are leaving due to those reasons I would have to warn them of one thing: you will never get that kind of control until you are made the Executive!

 

[Nancyg56]

The ideal would be for each dining venue to operate as an independant restaurant and make purchases as they see fit, but as we all know, Disney is a corporation and has to answer to shareholders on the profitability issue. Can they be profitable run as independant venues? Yes. Would they be more profitable if they were run like a chain restaurant? Yes. I do not think the DDP is the primary reasoning behind the switch to a chain-like business model for most on-property venues; I think the DDP was designed to generate profits for the business model they ultimately decided to go with. IMHO.

As for chefs leaving because of stifled creativity or lack of purchasing control, I can see that happening. Those things would only be a factor for the Executive Chefs leaving; I have never seen any establishment give those controls to the Sous Chef or any other lower level chef in the brigade. If chefs other than the Executive are leaving due to those reasons I would have to warn them of one thing: you will never get that kind of control until you are made the Executive!

I agree with you. The DDP was offered as an incentive to customers to fill hotels and restaurants. It is a symptom of the changes that management has implemented, not the cause of decline in quality.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I agree with you. The DDP was offered as an incentive to customers to fill hotels and restaurants. It is a symptom of the changes that management has implemented, not the cause of decline in quality.

I see it as both.

 

[bicker]

I beg to differ.

Why am I not surprised?

Not only do I believe that Disney pays attention I think the hulabaloo that surrounded the discontinuance of Early Morning Hours a couple of years ago is proof positive.

Proof positive that you're mistaken. The "hulabaloo" went on for months and months online -- Disney waited to change things until they had voluminous normalized survey data they gathered on-site and from after-vacation post-card-driven surveys -- all solicited information sources, not unsolicited information sources.

Disney made this change and the DIS went nuts. This policy lasted a very short time.

Your memory is faulty.

 

[bicker]

Makes no sense to me. If Disney could have the best of both worlds, the volume, room filling DDP guests and the niche, pay through the nose, wine loving, foodies why wouldn't they?

You're erroneously limiting their choices. They have X amount of resources to apply, and they can allocate them in any amounts in any directions. Sometimes the best answer is to allocate all their resources towards one of the available directions, even if it isn't the direction you personally would prefer them direct resources towards.

You can believe that Disney is just responding to the data they have, simply doing good work if you choose.

Yes, and you can choose to cast reckless aspersions on them because they don't do what you want to do. I prefer my more charitable and what I believe to be a more reasonable belief.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Well, again we're at the impasse.

Regarding the change back to Early Entry, again we'll have to disagree. You believe Disney has the ability to read volumes from the exit surveys and such that they give. I don't. Fine. A friend of mine in middle management at WDW was my source for the reason EE was reintated. In no uncertain terms it was his belief it was the internet hubub, particularily the DIS. He said prior to that incident the internet people were looked upon as "nuts" or "geeks" by Disney but that one incident changed their minds.

Regarding what they choose to offer, I can't for the life of me see how I'm limiting their choices when I'm the one saying they could be more profitable by serving everybody better. I understand that Lewis feels there may not be enough volume to "work" the foodie side (perhaps that's your feeling too) so there is really no point arguing as I firmly believe there is and only time will tell.

Additionally, I don't like my aspersions called reckless. I am simply stating that in this world and business climate anything can happen and many things will. Disney is obviously loading their cart with one demension when there are many contingencies to be considered. I would think stockholders would be better served by operating schemes that can withstand a myriad of happenstance rather than one that only counts on the status quo regardless of its current profitability. That is short sighted.

 

[Mackey Mouse]

I know that the DDP is one that truly makes people passionate for or against.
With that in mind, I am hoping that we will be able to continue this discussion without getting upset......we are following this thread and will keep it open if possible, we just ask that you respect each other's opinions.. We are all entitled to express our opinions on this subject without being ridiculed...

 

[ElizabethB]

Thanks, Peter Pirate. I always enjoy your insider's view of what's really going on at WDW. What has happened is very simple -- WDW had a strategic plan to seek out and find the people who like fine dining and wine and normally would not be caught dead at a theme park. For a while, it worked. It certainly worked for us. We avoided WDW as a vacation spot for over a decade after we had abominable food there in the late 80's. We tried WDW again in the late '90s and found such an improvement that it became a favorite destination for us. WDW has now decided to go a different way. It's interesting to me that the change in strategy seemed to correspond time-wise with the change in CEO's. Not sure there's any connection, but it's interesting to ponder.

The strategy now seems to be to compete with the mass market cruise lines -- lots of food included in the trip price, and none of the food all that great. I understand the appeal -- it's nice for families and groups to be able to include their food in the pre-paid trip price and not worry about splitting bills and whatnot. But, the appeal for those who really enjoy food and wine is gone. Moreover, the DDP has made it so it's ridiculous to dine at 1TS restaurants any other way. The value simply isn't there. A 1TS meal is now worth about $30 all in -- yet, if you pay your own way and aren't on the DDP, you could well end up spending more in the neighborhood of $50 (Chefs de France being a good example). So, one is really forced to buy the DDP or end up overpaying for the food quality as it now stands.

From our perspective, we used to really enjoy a lunch at one of the TS restaurants at World Showcase. It wasn't like an evening at Jiko, but very enjoyable nonetheless. There were some nice dining choices and some fun wine possibilities. We used to enjoy Spoodles and Maya Grill for the same reason -- some interesting food and wine choices we might not otherwise encounter -- and always lots of creativity with the menus and the food. The fun and variety are gone from the 1TS menus now and even some of the 2TS menus have been stripped down somewhat.

So, as DH said the other day, were it not for the F&W Festival with the opportunities for excellent wine and food afforded by the separate ticket events, WDW would most definitely not be a vacation destination for us anymore.

WDW can do with the foregoing information whatever they like. It's just the way it is.

 

[Lewisc]

A couple of recent posters said blue zoo wasn't very busy. Disney can look at the bookings at Bistro, V&A as well as the three restaurants in the S/D to determine if there are enough "foodies" to justify having additional restaurants that don't participate in the dining plan. The Rain Forest Cafes don't participate but I don't read any posters telling us how wonderful those non-participating restaurants are. Listen to some of the posters and you'd think restaurants like Le Cellier went from the quality of the Palm down to the quality of the Sizzler. A lot of guests over-rated the restaurants prior to the DDP and exaggerate the changes.

Disney is able to price everything, including restaurants at a premium. A $50 meal probably equates to a $30 meal at a local restaurant. I'm not sure how many guests are willing to pay $70 for a restaurant positioned above the current signature restaurants and below V&A.

I suspect the difficulty in getting a last minute reservation, as well as some small changes to the Signature restaurants, may motive some local residents to look at other restaurants for special occasions. Disney is prepared to lose some of those customers.

I understand that Lewis feels there may not be enough volume to "work" the foodie side (perhaps that's your feeling too) so there is really no point arguing as I firmly believe there is and only time will tell.

 

[Katiebell]

Wow, so many great posts on this thread I think this is the most respectful and positive discussion regarding the DDP I've ever seen on these boards, from both sides -- with very few exceptions

Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion about the plan. Yes, it seems the "golden age" of Disney Dining is over, at least for now. Maybe there will be a renaissance some time in the future. But I can understand why the "foodies" are mourning the decline in the high end quality. And I can also understand why the families are so happy that now that good sit down restaurants are available to them and within their budget -- many of them have fun atmosphere and at least a few popular dishes on the menu.

I read this entire thread before work this morning, but didn't have time to respond then. There are so many excellent posts it's hard to pick and choose, but some really stood out:

I think people have a right to express their opinions, however, there's a good way to do it and a not so good way too. Telling people that they don't know what good food is because they like what they were served at Disney is not something I like to read. DM eats at 5 stars french restaurants here on a regular basis and she liked the food fine. Then again she had realistic expectation and didn't anticipate to be served filet mignon at a $20 character lunch.

It gets on my nerves when some of the veterans here blame the "masses" for everything that they think is wrong with Disney. That word alone makes me cringe!

Totally agree, well said.

Well I believe that some people wanted to feel exclusive. And now that more people are eating at these establishments, they feel less exclusive. Some people genuinely can't enjoy something if a lot of others are able to enjoy it too.

I don't think there are a lot of people who feel this way (I sure hope not!), but there are a definitely few who are quite vocal and vehement with this opinion.

I don't think the dining plan is blameless for the changes. I don't think its fair to blame all the changes on the dining plan either - I think Disney has gotten into the "reducing variation" trend of running a business - and that has not had a good impact on food and beverage at Disney. (i.e. the standardization of bar menus has nothing to do with the dining plan).

I have been saying all along that the Dining Plan did not cause the menu changes and standardization -- the Dining Plan is just one of the many changes in food service that Disney made to increase profits. However, I think there are some negative impacts that have resulted since the Dining Plan, that Disney did not intend to happen. For example, Disney wanted their restaurants full, operating at capacity -- good for business, and the Dining Plan helped to accomplish this. I don't think Disney wanted guests to have to make reservations months in advance, be unable to get into many TS restaurants as a walk up, make multiple ADR's for the same time frame "just in case", have so many people trying to use TS credits that they have to figure out a way to convert them to CS credits or open an emergency buffet at the Tomorrowland Terrace, etc. I don't think any of that was part of the plan, but it shouldn't have been that hard to predict given the aggressive way the plan has been promoted, and how popular it is.

I am an Executive Chef and I love the DDP. Many people think that Disney dining is the height of fine dining and are disappointed when the food does not meet that expectation. I am a firm believer in the saying "you get what you pay for." At $39 per adult for two meals and a snack, the correct perspective needs to be applied. If you want better food and service you need to use two TS credits for the WDW Signature restaurants or pay out of pocket.

And if folks sat down and really figured out the math, many times the Signature Restaurants are a better deal if the meals are paid for OOP. It's not necessarily the most effective or economical use of 2 TS credits.

As for those who hate the DDP plan for the increased traffic in the restaurants and the lack of exclusivity, I think it is wonderful to offer people the DDP so they can come to WDW and experience foods and ethnicities they may never have the opportunity to partake of. I think that if we can enjoy the foods of other nations maybe we can learn to enjoy and respect the people of those regions as well. If the increase in foot traffic at these eateries could in some way establish a common thread of respect in the world (or at least some level of commonality) that would be better than exclusivity.

I agree, I love your perspective on this.

There are signature restaurants if you want fancy food. I don't believe V&A is going to be serving grilled cheese any time soon. I also don't believe that restaurants like LTT, CP, or Sci-Fi ever offered fine cuisine. Of course I could be wrong about that.

Do you not consider the Broiled Filet of Arctic Char from Jiko to be high quality food ? How about the Pan-Seared Duck Breast from Maya Grill ? They don't sound like TGI Friday's food to me.

But what do I know.. I'm part of the "masses" after all.

Yep, me too! DH and I are "foodies" of a different breed. More than upscale dining, we enjoy trying places that are fun, ethnic, off the beaten path, hidden gems. Most of the restaurants we selected for our trip were specifically for the atmosphere -- where else can you eat breakfast with princesses or with Stitch? One of the most memorable restaurant meals we've had recently was a breakfast in Haight Ashbury, at a little place that was jam packed and people lined up on the sidewalk outside to wait for a seat at the counter. It was delicious, and it was a blast! Full of "local color"...and we fit right in

I often wonder, when reading threads like this, if there's an unofficial "class system" in place at WDW. To hear some talk, the advent of the value resorts was like the Apocalypse, in that "anyone" could afford to stay on property. I recall one poster saying that it was bringing "undesirables" to WDW, and was serious in saying so.

I've read these same types of posts (thankfully very few!) And it made me really sad that some folks honestly feel that way. I go to DL about once a year, and consider it my second hometown. The only DL guests I consider "undesirables" are those who are rude, mean, and/or dishonest.

If someone comes to my favorite place (WDW), and is able to experience just a bit of the magic I've enjoyed for decades because of the DDP or Pop Century, then heck, I'll celebrate right along with 'em. It's all good.

As a DL native and first time WDW visitor, thanks! And yep, we happen to be staying at the Pop, and we bought the DDP