Plans have been filed for DVC expansion at Caribbean Beach Resort

[Sweettears]

There are good discounts for deluxes...they Just aren't usually on Disney.com

Where do you see these?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yep the discounts for room only in the deluxes is a thing of the past. DVC at the deluxe resorts was created because they couldn't sell out at the inflated rates. That's why creating a new level makes sense. Deluxe used to be affordable, although a stretch. They have lost a huge portion of the middle market , myself included. Something in between captures those dollars. You can't tell me that the bean counters don't realize this.

I agree and disagree.

There is a problem created by the $550 rack rate at the deluxes...and yes, they know it (though would never admit it)

But I disagree on how to fix it.

The right way would be to lower the deluxe rates and pull the lost segment back in. The won't do that.

So they convert to dvc and raise what's left of the rack to create artificial "value"...ok...but whatever.

Now...I disagree that there's a big enough market that can only "afford" $289 at connected Caribbean or $500 at the "what's left of illuminations 2000 view" family suites.

Those figure are not "budget" numbers...it doesn't equate. It's a middle class take for a middle class that is gone.

Hypothetically...a family that made $45,000 in 1989 could travel and afford a $60 room at a moderate in a budget. I'll even say that in 2000 their means had grown to say $75,000 and we're ok with the $109 room.

That same demographic does not make $150,000 now to comfortably afford the $350 rate. That's the old middle class position that's been destroyed and there's no replacement.

It's a cake with the filling taken out.

Disney is struggling with this and has been for years...they've done better than they should have...trying to double the value and moderate rates to drag people into a middle class that can't exist in the greater economy.
My figures are all theoretical but you see the point.

It will be interesting what they do...especially With real competition.
As I've been droning on for years: they pushed the prices too high, too fast. You can't bleed the parks to make the free money from espn back. The two don't equate.

And I would suggest to those that are "ok" with paying $300+ For a room at cbr or $500 for a suite instead of paying $400 at Boardwalk to just bite the bullet and buy or rent the damn timeshare...at those prices you are getting completely screwed for moderates.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Where do you see these?

Wholesale rates through large volume disney specializing travel agencies.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Not as good as they used to be. Plus the starting point for the discount is a huge jump from where it used to be. Getting deluxe in the $300- 400 range used to be normal . Not anymore

I agree there that it's a lot more difficult and the net price is higher...

The question is: do you want to pay $300 for a moderate?
That might fit the budget but it's throwing money away. POP at $150 is a way better ROI.

 

[Sweettears]

I agree there that it's a lot more difficult and the net price is higher...

The question is: do you want to pay $300 for a moderate?
That might fit the budget but it's throwing money away. POP at $150 is a way better ROI.

POP rooms and location suck. I would never spend the fare on those rooms. In reality you don't get much more in a moderate. Give me something that's discernibly different from the present mod and charge me more but not deluxe and I think there is a significant market

 

[lockedoutlogic]

POP rooms and location suck. I would never spend the fare on those rooms. In reality you don't get much more in a moderate. Give me something that's discernibly different from the present mod and charge me more but not deluxe and I think there is a significant market

I can see your point but nothing from the current disney management gives me any confidence they'll go that far.

The moderates are nearly identical to the values...they just have better theming and minor tweaks to services.

I can't see them do that much to disrupt their comfort levels.

...unless...what if the goal is to eliminate the value category all together?

 

[skier_pete]

Unless the tower gives you 2-3 times as many rooms in the same footprint and lets you charge more per night due to the view (not all the way up to selective XL rates but more than current) and reduce expenses due to housekeeping covering less land, etc

OK - but they are taking out 600 rooms, and BLT has around 600 rooms in it. Admittedly some are 2-bedrooms, but many are studios/1 bedrooms. And the room sizes in BLT are onSo unless they are building a tower twice the size of BLT - it will be a comparable number of rooms.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

OK - but they are taking out 600 rooms, and BLT has around 600 rooms in it. Admittedly some are 2-bedrooms, but many are studios/1 bedrooms. And the room sizes in BLT are onSo unless they are building a tower twice the size of BLT - it will be a comparable number of rooms.

Is it just the tower? I assumed the tower would be at least as many rooms at BLT and then other outlier buildings so the total would be at least twice what they are knocking down (or close to it, and with there being more suites - more total bodies they can fit being even higher than that)

If it is just the tower, then it really brings into question as I can't see it being that many more rooms than what are being knocked down

 

[skier_pete]

Is it just the tower? I assumed the tower would be at least as many rooms at BLT and then other outlier buildings so the total would be at least twice what they are knocking down (or close to it, and with there being more suites - more total bodies they can fit being even higher than that)

If it is just the tower, then it really brings into question as I can't see it being that many more rooms than what are being knocked down

Well, they mentioned there are 5 other buildings, but they are all small - I assumed these were more utility buildings or say Pool building / community Hall...etc. I don't really know that.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

A tower the size of Bay lake doesn't seem in order at Caribbean...

I can't see a 15 story tower being put inside the property of the existing Caribbean...that leads me to think more of a parceling off of the grounds and a completely different development altogether

 

[dlavender]

Would a lesser DVC really be such a bad idea?

Lets say the tower has 600 units. Could they price them at 60 points a week and not change the per point cost? That puts it at an $11k buy in. That way, it does not decrease the value of DVC for everyone, as everyone's points are equal. Also, could they just construct a tower, and add only a quiet pool. This would put the build vastly cheaper than trying to put in park access, table service, and a larger themed pool. Let's say their cost to build is 20k per room (10k is hotel industry average, not sure what their cost per room is, so I doubled it). That puts the tower at 12 million. For arguments sake, let's put the entire project at 50 million to cover the pool, and the cost of removing the old structures. If they sell out, that's ~340 million dollars (at $180 per point). Pretty great margin. Seems like an easy return, and doesn't rock the boat. And for the consumer, they get to lock in a mod with new rooms at ~$90/night.

Looking at that math, I don't know why you'd want to go through the trouble and expense of adding table service, brand new amenities, park access, third entrance, to try and retrofit a mod into a deluxe....Just build the tower, and bank the cash.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The minimum contract is not determined by the point chart. The current minimum contract amount is about $25,000 at full price.

And I don't think you'll see a "60 point week"...ever. That's too low. At that rate the minimum contract get people 17 days onsite each year...that's a huge difference from all the other contracts.

 

[Madonna3]

CBR has a better location than WL does

How so??? I have no idea where you're getting this from. Have you been to either of these resorts recently?!

I pointed out earlier Disney has no defined criteria for what makes 1 hotel value and what makes it deluxe.

This constant point of your argument is making me nuts..https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/planning-guides/in-depth-advice/first-trip/

While vague in this example, Disney clearly has criteria for what they define as value, moderate, and deluxe.

In fact, on their FAQ (which I cannot access right now, I am getting a 404, which is probably my network here at work and not Disney's page) they have a list of hotels that they define in each category.


And if you'll accept it, here is a very good breakdown of resort category from Touring Plans.

http://blog.touringplans.com/2012/0...rence-between-disney-world-resort-categories/
At one point Disney actually did have a page you could click on that described the categories. I've been hunting for it all morning, but I have patients now so I have to be more subtle in my Disney searching.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

How so??? I have no idea where you're getting this from. Have you been to either of these resorts recently?!



This constant point of your argument is making me nuts..https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/planning-guides/in-depth-advice/first-trip/

While vague in this example, Disney clearly has criteria for what they define as value, moderate, and deluxe.

In fact, on their FAQ (which I cannot access right now, I am getting a 404, which is probably my network here at work and not Disney's page) they have a list of hotels that they define in each category.

View attachment 217876
And if you'll accept it, here is a very good breakdown of resort category from Touring Plans.

http://blog.touringplans.com/2012/0...rence-between-disney-world-resort-categories/
At one point Disney actually did have a page you could click on that described the categories. I've been hunting for it all morning, but I have patients now so I have to be more subtle in my Disney searching.

LBD has an agenda here that is known only to him...

The second part is what I've tried to explain 11 different ways on this thread...but I can't penetrate the shields. Good thing I don't offend...or the fact he doesn't believe the info from working in this very business segment would really be starting to tick me off...

The location comment on wilderness lodge is beyond silly. That's the google earth thing again. I offered to take him on tour and show him the logistical difference...standing offer.

 

[Madonna3]

BTW - Morning y'all. So glad we're still debating this

 

[Madonna3]

LBD has an agenda here that is known only to him...

The second part is what I've tried to explain 11 different ways on this thread...but I can't penetrate the shields. Good thing I don't offend...or the fact he doesn't believe the info from working in this very business segment would really be starting to tick me off...

The location comment on wilderness lodge is beyond silly. That's the google earth thing again. I offered to take him on tour and show him the logistical difference...standing offer.

I wanna go! I love behind the scenes and insider stuff!

 

[Madonna3]

CBR being defined as moderate vs WL described as deluxe is by no means any kind of "brain washing" marketing scheme. They clearly have amenities designed for the people they host. What you're saying here is the Hampton Inn is just as good as the Waldorf Astoria because they both have beds.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I wanna go! I love behind the scenes and insider stuff!

I would have to "borrow" somebody's Id and nametag...but I think I still remember my way around

 

[lockedoutlogic]

CBR being defined as moderate vs WL described as deluxe is by no means any kind of "brain washing" marketing scheme. They clearly have amenities designed for the people they host. What you're saying here is the Hampton Inn is just as good as the Waldorf Astoria because they both have beds.

No question...

But it also is determined by the "open eyes" test...

As in spend a couple hours walking around wilderness and observing....then go to Caribbean and do the same. The differences are easy to find. They feel completely different.

The closer comparison is old key west to Caribbean. That's a lot closer...though okw is still better and the rooms are drastically different.

 

[skier_pete]

CBR being defined as moderate vs WL described as deluxe is by no means any kind of "brain washing" marketing scheme. They clearly have amenities designed for the people they host. What you're saying here is the Hampton Inn is just as good as the Waldorf Astoria because they both have beds.

Anyone that has ever been to the two hotels can easily tell the difference in Quality.

Personally I think that Disney has pretty clearly defined their categories - and nothing has changed on that.

There's no way that the remains of CBR - regardless of what happens with this new section - can be converted to anything more than a moderate. The resort is too spread out, the rooms are too small. There's no elevators...the amenities are weak. (Yes, the new CBR pool is quite nice, but that doesn't cover it.) I don't see there being anyway to change the definition of the resort to anything besides "moderate".