Plans have been filed for DVC expansion at Caribbean Beach Resort

[lockedoutlogic]

I think the evidence of there being no pathway shows exactly how much a pathway would cost and how big of a project it really is. If they could get just $10 more a night by having the pathway, that's ~$7 mil in rev a year. If they want a ROI of 5 years, that means the pathway costs more than $35 million. There's obviously other major considerations we don't know about. But if it was too costly then, it's probably too costly now.

ETA: But what do I really know? When I first heard what they would charge for family suites at AoA, I thought Disney was in for a rude awakening. For a value resort, come on. Apparently I was the one who needed the wake up call. Perhaps I still do.

Considering it costs 5 times as much as it did 30 years ago?

Yeah...safe bet.


I too was really watching art of animation...I thought they pushed it too far and it would be a trouble spot property...boy was I wrong...

Give people a extra little outer room
And a flip down bed and they'll gladly line up to pay $400 a night for the food court...

They'll drink the sand.

That lesson really makes me wonder about "moderate suites"...and not a timeshare.

They can add that with really zero amenities and lower the cost/revenue ratio for Caribbean. Not a huge investment. 10 "suites" takes way less housekeeping than 20 standards as well...and caribbeans employee requirements always "way" higher than comparable others...because of the prototype layout. There's no need to have 1000 feet in between groupings of buildings...that costs money due to time loss.

 

[LaidBackDad]

I think that if they wanted direct access to Epcot from Caribbean...they would have put it where they could have achieved that...and they specifically didn't

Remember, they built it 86-88...but it wasn't like they didn't have yacht, beach, swan, dolphin, and MGM planned out at that point. Prior to that point...there was little to obstruct that area...and they build retention ponds all over the place and the overflow canals...

There's reasons as to why Caribbean is where it is...just like there's reasons why pop is where it is...those were thought out in advance.

They probably can do a very pricey retrofit to "correct" that...but the line of thinking that Caribbean was put there at random irrelative to where the parks were and was NOT connected for no reason is fools thinking.

Your flip flopping is getting hard to follow. When they built CBR, was it part of a perfectly thought out plan that could never be changed; or, was it a proto-type facility which was foolishly designed and is now the dung heap of WDW? You have claimed both so far. You keep forgetting that operations and logistics can be changed; location can't.

My google maps must be broken. It seems like GF charges more than 4 Seasons and I have read many times that Disney doesn't know how to do luxury resorts and 4 Seasons has vastly superior service and amenities. That must be wrong, because apparently location doesn't matter and only amenities have anything to do with price. Why hasn't anyone suggested that this new tower is going to be nothing but value rooms? I mean there is high demand for them and CBR is on such a terrible piece of property they probably can't even do anything else with it.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Your flip flopping is getting hard to follow. When they built CBR, was it part of a perfectly thought out plan that could never be changed; or, was it a proto-type facility which was foolishly designed and is now the dung heap of WDW? You have claimed both so far. You keep forgetting that operations and logistics can be changed; location can't.

My google maps must be broken. It seems like GF charges more than 4 Seasons and I have read many times that Disney doesn't know how to do luxury resorts and 4 Seasons has vastly superior service and amenities. That must be wrong, because apparently location doesn't matter and only amenities have anything to do with price. Why hasn't anyone suggested that this new tower is going to be nothing but value rooms? I mean there is high demand for them and CBR is on such a terrible piece of property they probably can't even do anything else with it.

What exactly are you looking at as a discrepancy?
You're way to caught up in map placement.

What I'm saying...and still saying...

Is that caribbeans plot was put there specifically to be "close" but not to have a direct connect...there or in the future. Unlike the international gateway...where it was placed near the water bridge that allows for Epcot backstage without disruption or eyesore. (You understand the waterbridge, correct?) And that's a good spot for direct access hotels...and here we are.

When I say "prototype"...I'm saying it was their first mass hotel. And it was. And they corrected the obvious difficiencies - mostly layout, bus loops, and facility placement in the future large hotels. They did...it's there...still remains. That's exactly why the dvc retrofit is a stretch. Not saying it's not happening..but it is a stetch.

And you picked another bad place to try to use as ammo: grand Floridian.

Grand Floridian costs more simply because they charge for it. That's because they have pushed the pricing beyond its service level well before four seasons was built. The convention center and wedding pavilion are price drivers as well. As they are at Boardwalk and yacht club.

The high end clientele pick four seasons because of the brand reputation...it is also rated as the best hotel in Orlando - no shock - and the service far exceeds the grand Floridian because that's Their business model.

Animal kingdom lodge is often rated higher by travel publications than the grand Floridian based on service...I might add.

No doubt location is a price driver... and Disney's marketing for 45 years...but it's not just location.

Location does matter...as does onsite facilities and services...

Here's tonight's rates:

Pop $118/156
Caribbean $189
Beach club $539/565
Grand Floridian $646 and up

You think that's all about footpaths, huh?

You are incorrect...that's part but not nearly the whole. It's much more about the amenities and the marketing over a long period.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Your flip flopping is getting hard to follow. When they built CBR, was it part of a perfectly thought out plan that could never be changed; or, was it a proto-type facility which was foolishly designed and is now the dung heap of WDW? You have claimed both so far. You keep forgetting that operations and logistics can be changed; location can't.

My google maps must be broken. It seems like GF charges more than 4 Seasons and I have read many times that Disney doesn't know how to do luxury resorts and 4 Seasons has vastly superior service and amenities. That must be wrong, because apparently location doesn't matter and only amenities have anything to do with price. Why hasn't anyone suggested that this new tower is going to be nothing but value rooms? I mean there is high demand for them and CBR is on such a terrible piece of property they probably can't even do anything else with it.

I think you're giving your google maps AI to make decisions for you...that's been pointed out multiple times by not just me.

 

[DisFanDad]

You're correct...which strongly points to timeshare...

And yet that doesn't make any sense if you step back and look at the bigger picture.

This is like an antithetical idea: push the boundaries and see what they can get away with and risk upsetting the apple cart.

One thing i don't doubt is their market research. Which means one of threee things:
1. They've lost their minds
2. They have data to tell them that the consumers have lost their minds
3. Both (1) and (2)

I've always thought that disney will shed the hotel business at some point...just attempt to get free profits from an operation without overhead investment (cough...Espn...cough)...is this another step towards it?

Just something I thought you would like, it actually touches on a lot of points people are bringing up here. The relative cost of CBR vs Poly, but also highlights what some people think of the ambiance / grounds. If this take is accurate, or at all representative, I could VERY much see how DVC (or a deluxe hotel) would work on CBR grounds.

Not sure if its ok to post links on these boards ??? If so, I apologize in advance and wont do it again, just let me know !

http://www.disneytouristblog.com/polynesian-caribbean-beach-hotel-comparison/

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Just something I thought you would like, it actually touches on a lot of points people are bringing up here. The relative cost of CBR vs Poly, but also highlights what some people think of the ambiance / grounds. If this take is accurate, or at all representative, I could VERY much see how DVC (or a deluxe hotel) would work on CBR grounds.

Not sure if its ok to post links on these boards ??? If so, I apologize in advance and wont do it again, just let me know !

http://www.disneytouristblog.com/polynesian-caribbean-beach-hotel-comparison/

Very interesting article...I've read a few of those comparisons over the years but it's been awhile.

I have always told people to make the comparison on value to yacht or beach club...and in the olden days the $125 or so upcharge was not much of an obstacle for the value.

Now...I agree with the premise: I don't think I could justify paying double for poly...at rack rate. I did just pay last year at poly for $252 a night with tax...which obliterates the $179 a night at port Orleans...but still.

The problem is all their ratings are based on the value of a cash room comparison...which is not the dvc argument. In either expectations or costs on a contract basis.

 

[MommaBerd]

@TheMaxRebo @Madonna3 I'm with y'all. I think moderate suites make the MOST sense. As I said earlier, I believe families of 5 and 6 are really underserved by Disney.

I'm curious, @lockedoutlogic, how does it not fit their current financial goals? Because they don't recoup the construction and maintenance costs by selling it as DVC? ETA: Although it looks like you may be leaning more in this direction now...

 

[MommaBerd]

Here's another what-if that I don't think I've seen mentioned: They are starting a new class of DVC that cannot be traded into by existing "Deluxe" DVC owners. It would make it possible to do a reset of point pricing without worrying about it being flooded by existing DVC owners...

 

[LaidBackDad]

What exactly are you looking at as a discrepancy?
You're way to caught up in map placement.

What I'm saying...and still saying...

Is that caribbeans plot was put there specifically to be "close" but not to have a direct connect...there or in the future. Unlike the international gateway...where it was placed near the water bridge that allows for Epcot backstage without disruption or eyesore. (You understand the waterbridge, correct?) And that's a good spot for direct access hotels...and here we are.

When I say "prototype"...I'm saying it was their first mass hotel. And it was. And they corrected the obvious difficiencies - mostly layout, bus loops, and facility placement in the future large hotels. They did...it's there...still remains. That's exactly why the dvc retrofit is a stretch. Not saying it's not happening..but it is a stetch.

And you picked another bad place to try to use as ammo: grand Floridian.

Grand Floridian costs more simply because they charge for it. That's because they have pushed the pricing beyond its service level well before four seasons was built. The convention center and wedding pavilion are price drivers as well. As they are at Boardwalk and yacht club.

The high end clientele pick four seasons because of the brand reputation...it is also rated as the best hotel in Orlando - no shock - and the service far exceeds the grand Floridian because that's Their business model.

Animal kingdom lodge is often rated higher by travel publications than the grand Floridian based on service...I might add.

No doubt location is a price driver... and Disney's marketing for 45 years...but it's not just location.

Location does matter...as does onsite facilities and services...

Here's tonight's rates:

Pop $118/156
Caribbean $189
Beach club $539/565
Grand Floridian $646 and up

You think that's all about footpaths, huh?

You are incorrect...that's part but not nearly the whole. It's much more about the amenities and the marketing over a long period.

I admit it is difficult to follow your rational when you use an examples that destroy your entire argument and validates my point.

You use 2 hotels that have direct access to their parks and show their high price tags then give 2 hotels which don't have the access and they are much lower. If CBR had equal access to Epcot, then yes, by your own example they could charge a much higher price. The same rate as BC, probably not but close.

You claim CBR has been nothing but a hot mess since its inception and claim that they fixed a lot of those problems except for the biggest mistake which was bad transportation and no park access. For some reason you seem to think Disney realizes all of the faults with CBR but they are powerless to make improvements on the very issues you seem to think are so bad. You know better than that.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm curious, @lockedoutlogic, how does it not fit their current financial goals? Because they don't recoup the construction and maintenance costs by selling it as DVC? ETA: Although it looks like you may be leaning more in this direction now...

Along with a reduced employee requirement and the guaranteed bookings that come with dvc...yep...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I admit it is difficult to follow your rational when you use an examples that destroy your entire argument and validates my point.

You use 2 hotels that have direct access to their parks and show their high price tags then give 2 hotels which don't have the access and they are much lower. If CBR had equal access to Epcot, then yes, by your own example they could charge a much higher price. The same rate as BC, probably not but close.

You claim CBR has been nothing but a hot mess since its inception and claim that they fixed a lot of those problems except for the biggest mistake which was bad transportation and no park access. For some reason you seem to think Disney realizes all of the faults with CBR but they are powerless tomake improvementsmore on the very issues you seem to think are so bad. You know better than that.

You're just looking for an angle that isn't there based on the assumption that direct access is a given.

Caribbean is not priced at Boardwalk or beach club rate because it isn't as nice. Period, no discussion. Animal kingdom has no direct access but it's double the price. It's not completely about the zebras...it's about the hot tubs next to the zebras, the suites, boma, jiko and the lobby.

You can keep going around and around the pine tree...but that won't make it turn into an elm.

The moderates were built to serve that price range. They aren't "moderates waiting to be deluxes"

The best example is wilderness lodge...do you know the history there? It actually proves the point you just don't want to see.

Caribbean is a concept I don't care for...and one apparently disney agreed with me on as they began to phase elements out starting with Dixie and through Pop/AoA.

I would like to spend a day taking you on a tour of all the hotels...to point out all the hidden structural and logistical characteristics.

Including why "just connect it" involves a lot more that your willing to admit.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Here's another what-if that I don't think I've seen mentioned: They are starting a new class of DVC that cannot be traded into by existing "Deluxe" DVC owners. It would make it possible to do a reset of point pricing without worrying about it being flooded by existing DVC owners...

We kicked this one around about a year ago when this first came up..

I'm more in favor of a "second tier"dvc...or...probably easier...a surcharge for Caribbean to book at end existing...

So if Boardwalk is normally 16 for night...you need 24 to book with bon bini points

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Here's another what-if that I don't think I've seen mentioned: They are starting a new class of DVC that cannot be traded into by existing "Deluxe" DVC owners. It would make it possible to do a reset of point pricing without worrying about it being flooded by existing DVC owners...

I think that is possible - but that would mean this is just the first of a number of moderate DVC - meaning they would have to build them at Port Orleans and Coronado and probably build new. Not saying it's impossible, but would be major undertaking.

Unless you allow something like trade 2 moderate DVC points for 1 Deluxe or something to make more options, but more issues arise from that

 

[LaidBackDad]

Just something I thought you would like, it actually touches on a lot of points people are bringing up here. The relative cost of CBR vs Poly, but also highlights what some people think of the ambiance / grounds. If this take is accurate, or at all representative, I could VERY much see how DVC (or a deluxe hotel) would work on CBR grounds.

Not sure if its ok to post links on these boards ??? If so, I apologize in advance and wont do it again, just let me know !

http://www.disneytouristblog.com/polynesian-caribbean-beach-hotel-comparison/

Alright, I'm just going to throw this out there even though I'm sure lot's of people will deny it and possibly be offended (I assure you, no offence is intended); but I think this issue may be contributing to some of the different perspectives people have. It's funny @lockedoutlogic mentioned that marketing effects how hotels are priced. I couldn't agree more, marketing plays a huge role in the price of a hotel. Disney is really good at marketing, the DDP is a perfect example but that is a topic for another thread entirely. I would suggest that there are no such things as value, moderate and deluxe hotels at WDW. That whole concept is nothing but a marketing ploy that is designed to make it easier for guest to pick a hotel based on the amenities desired by a guest. I pointed out earlier Disney has no defined criteria for what makes 1 hotel value and what makes it deluxe. My friend @lockedoulogic provided a rough list of characteristics for each category but there is crossover and differences for many hotels. People keep getting hung up on the fact that CBR is classified by the marketing department as a moderate hotel. You will get no argument from me that as CBR stands right now, it deserves that designation. CBR has the stigma of being a lessor quality hotel. The problem is, it's not really that far off as the article / review above pointed out. Except for the transportation / park access issue CBR would score much higher. Give CBR a few more amenities and voila, CBR is at or near the same quality as poly for a 1/3 the price. It's silly to believe the Disney suits or the marketing department would stand for that. Hence, you now have a deluxe DVC tower going into CBR.

I don't blame people for being brainwashed by the marketing department, that's their job. CBR is what it is right now. Just be prepared for the marketing team to crank it up a notch as it re-brands CBR as the new deluxe version with easy park access. People will have a hard time adjusting to the new pitch but sooner or later CBR will lose it's inferior label and it will soon be more popular that YC/BC/BW area.

 

[Lvsdisney]

Reading this thread has been entertaining, so thank you to everyone who has been contributing!

Based on the plans, if the tower area is whole new resort (dvc or otherwise) it kind of cuts off Aruba and Jamaica from the rest of the resort. I know they have the bridge, but at least with Barbados, they still appeared "connected". Without Barbados, they looks like another property sitting across the lake. I know that Disney doesn't necessarily care if something looks like it doesn't belong (Hello Trinidad south!) but I think if they made the top of the lake something completely different, then CBR would just be piece-mailed at that point. One side with 2 villages, the other with 2 and half. No flow, no cohesion.

 

[LaidBackDad]

You're just looking for an angle that isn't there based on the assumption that direct access is a given.

Caribbean is not priced at Boardwalk or beach club rate because it isn't as nice. Period, no discussion. Animal kingdom has no direct access but it's double the price. It's not completely about the zebras...it's about the hot tubs next to the zebras, the suites, boma, jiko and the lobby.

You can keep going around and around the pine tree...but that won't make it turn into an elm.

The moderates were built to serve that price range. They aren't "moderates waiting to be deluxes"

The best example is wilderness lodge...do you know the history there? It actually proves the point you just don't want to see.

Caribbean is a concept I don't care for...and one apparently disney agreed with me on as they began to phase elements out starting with Dixie and through Pop/AoA.

I would like to spend a day taking you on a tour of all the hotels...to point out all the hidden structural and logistical characteristics.

Including why "just connect it" involves a lot more that your willing to admit.

... again, I couldn't argue in favor of my point of view any more eloquently. I'm just not sure how it helps your perspective. WL is very nice and has wonderful amenities and should be a deluxe; but it charges much less than the monorail resorts. Why, because of it's location. CBR has a better location than WL does. CBR will charge much higher rates than it currently does when it has better access.

We have already established that there is no real logistical or operational issue that prevents CBR from having easy park access. Just because it hurts your argument doesn't make it true.

 

[DisFanDad]

Very interesting article...I've read a few of those comparisons over the years but it's been awhile.

I have always told people to make the comparison on value to yacht or beach club...and in the olden days the $125 or so upcharge was not much of an obstacle for the value.

Now...I agree with the premise: I don't think I could justify paying double for poly...at rack rate. I did just pay last year at poly for $252 a night with tax...which obliterates the $179 a night at port Orleans...but still.

The problem is all their ratings are based on the value of a cash room comparison...which is not the dvc argument. In either expectations or costs on a contract basis.

True, but the sales pitch wouldn't be hard to make if they made it vs cash rates at the new resort I don't think.

I get this wouldn't be the same as it works at Poly or GF, etc, but I still think it would work.

 

[dlavender]

Alright, I'm just going to throw this out there even though I'm sure lot's of people will deny it and possibly be offended (I assure you, no offence is intended); but I think this issue may be contributing to some of the different perspectives people have. It's funny @lockedoutlogic mentioned that marketing effects how hotels are priced. I couldn't agree more, marketing plays a huge role in the price of a hotel. Disney is really good at marketing, the DDP is a perfect example but that is a topic for another thread entirely. I would suggest that there are no such things as value, moderate and deluxe hotels at WDW. That whole concept is nothing but a marketing ploy that is designed to make it easier for guest to pick a hotel based on the amenities desired by a guest. I pointed out earlier Disney has no defined criteria for what makes 1 hotel value and what makes it deluxe. My friend @lockedoulogic provided a rough list of characteristics for each category but there is crossover and differences for many hotels. People keep getting hung up on the fact that CBR is classified by the marketing department as a moderate hotel. You will get no argument from me that as CBR stands right now, it deserves that designation. CBR has the stigma of being a lessor quality hotel. The problem is, it's not really that far off as the article / review above pointed out. Except for the transportation / park access issue CBR would score much higher. Give CBR a few more amenities and voila, CBR is at or near the same quality as poly for a 1/3 the price. It's silly to believe the Disney suits or the marketing department would stand for that. Hence, you now have a deluxe DVC tower going into CBR.

I don't blame people for being brainwashed by the marketing department, that's their job. CBR is what it is right now. Just be prepared for the marketing team to crank it up a notch as it re-brands CBR as the new deluxe version with easy park access. People will have a hard time adjusting to the new pitch but sooner or later CBR will lose it's inferior label and it will soon be more popular that YC/BC/BW area.

It will take a whole lot more than rebranding. Specifically, 30 bulldozers and an entire rebuild of the whole thing. Including a stormalongbay 2.

I've stayed at YC and CBR. YC was almost double. But they have double the amenities, not even factoring in park access. I think you keep missing that part. It's not the park access, it's all the other stuff.

It's like saying Motel 6 is just a rebrand away from being a Hilton....

 

[LaidBackDad]

It will take a whole lot more than rebranding. Specifically, 30 bulldozers and an entire rebuild of the whole thing. Including a stormalongbay 2.

I've stayed at YC and CBR. YC was almost double. But they have double the amenities, not even factoring in park access. I think you keep missing that part. It's not the park access, it's all the other stuff.

It's like saying Motel 6 is just a rebrand away from being a Hilton....

We may have "Exhibit A" in the marketing machine theory... I also have stayed at BC and CBR. BC was way better and I loved Stormalong Bay, no pool in WDW can touch it; but it also serves 2 resorts BC and YC. CBR pool is also very nice and is at least as good as if not better than any of the other deluxe hotels. However, I am curious as to what other amenities you are thinking of that CBR doesn't have already or will likely have when the new DVC tower is completed. They are exactly the same. 30 bulldozers and an entire rebuild - check -already taken care of with the tower. Easy park access - check - comes along with DVC. Ta da... the new CBR DVC meets all of your criteria, what am I missing here. Is it "the feel" thing again. That's all marketing and a brand new resort tower is going to "feel" a whole lot nicer than a 20 year old property.

Are you really concerned that the remaining formerly moderate rooms somehow diminish you stay in your new deluxe tower room? How? Why tear down perfectly good rooms that suddenly jumped in value? Why are these rooms any different than Garden Section rooms at the Contemporary? This clearly isn't the same ball park as a Motel 6 / Hilton comparison.

 

[dlavender]

We may have "Exhibit A" in the marketing machine theory... I also have stayed at BC and CBR. BC was way better and I loved Stormalong Bay, no pool in WDW can touch it; but it also serves 2 resorts BC and YC. CBR pool is also very nice and is at least as good as if not better than any of the other deluxe hotels. However, I am curious as to what other amenities you are thinking of that CBR doesn't have already or will likely have when the new DVC tower is completed. They are exactly the same. 30 bulldozers and an entire rebuild - check -already taken care of with the tower. Easy park access - check - comes along with DVC. Ta da... the new CBR DVC meets all of your criteria, what am I missing here. Is it "the feel" thing again. That's all marketing and a brand new resort tower is going to "feel" a whole lot nicer than a 20 year old property.

Are you really concerned that the remaining formerly moderate rooms somehow diminish you stay in your new deluxe tower room? How? Why tear down perfectly good rooms that suddenly jumped in value? Why are these rooms any different than Garden Section rooms at the Contemporary? This clearly isn't the same ball park as a Motel 6 / Hilton comparison.

Table service with character meal. About 2 other table service locations serving specialty items. Child care center. Room service. On demand valet parking.

And CBR has the best mod pool, but it's still not even close to stormalong. And for the money, I'd rather pay CBR prices, for the record vs what we paid for YC. Only because we don't use all the amenities that you pay extra for.