Petty for the sake of being petty - Update post #52

[SC Minnie]

We have begun the process of opening an estate. He died without a will. We have no idea if there is money (there was some at one time) or what his creditors will go after. The house is worth about $15K (not a typo) I believe that he was on medicaid so the state will likely go after whatever funds we find. He wasn't paying property taxes so I had to pay them today to avoid a tax sale. Hence, I do not want to make any promises of payment to anybody.

My brother fronted the cremation expenses but according to the laws in our state, funeral expenses are paid back before creditors are so he should be fine..

Even though I paid the property taxes, I would rather be in the hole for that than deal with the hassle of selling stuff but my brother told me today that he wants to try to sell anything of value. Apparently he has been thinking about this already because he was talking about the value of the vintage computer stuff.

This part changes things for me. You may have to do a full accounting of any possessions of value and those items need to be sold to pay the debts of the estate.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

Ask about that specific item, it is special, therefore, nothing petty about getting it back. Do you have the friends address? If so, I would knock on the door and ask point blank.

In this day and age I would absolutely not recommend going to the guy's house and knocking on his door. You could get shot for trying this. I would pursue a simple letter from a lawyer if you want to try and recover the things. If estranged brother would have preferred that his friend have and/or distribute his belongings, then estranged brother should have drawn up legal documents to that effect.

 

[fly girl]

First, I am sorry. Dealing with a death is hard enough, even if estranged. And to be executor along with your brother for his estate is not an easy task.

I would absolutely have a lawyer pursue it if those are items you would like. Would I count on this guy doing the right thing? Probably not. The simple fact he took them without asking is enough to know he is a weasel.

Good luck. I hope it goes your way, but if for some reason it doesn't remember in the scheme of life these are small items. (But no doubt, I would be feel the same way at first too. Perspective comes with time.)

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Since you were estranged do you find yourself morally (since your question appears to contain morality ponderings too) the rightful owner of the musical instruments and photography equipment? Forget legalities for a second.

In my case I'm estranged from my father and I find that I hold zero right to any of his belongings. My mom on the other hand is estranged from my sister (my sister's choice) and has always been clear to me that items/money (whatever there would be) it would be her desire to be split between her and I however I doubt my sister thinks she's owed to any of the items. We both have had the opportunity to collect belongings of ours we hold in value and don't have any claim any longer to items left.

I think the door was left open for a gray area based on the allowance of others into the property for the sake of taking care of property (the cat). You don't necessarily know if the friends and your deceased brother had a verbal agreement either on the property although if this was the case the friends should have discussed this with you. In hindsight I wouldn't have left the others into the home without first you being there even as grateful I'm sure at the moment y'all were.

That said there is the question about items that were taken for the purpose of the estate and for that I would recommend discussing with an estate lawyer how big of a deal that is or not in terms of settling up the estate.

 

[fla4fun]

I may be out of line, since I know nothing about the friend(s), but is it possible that the friend has already sold the items and does not have them to return to you? Have you seen the items? They could be long gone by now . . .

I am sorry for your loss and the resulting stress.

 

[kymom99]

I may be out of line, since I know nothing about the friend(s), but is it possible that the friend has already sold the items and does not have them to return to you? Have you seen the items? They could be long gone by now . . .

I am sorry for your loss and the resulting stress.

That’s my guess too

 

[happily single]

You are not being petty. This man entered your brothers home and stole items. I highly suspect that the list of items he gave you is highly deflated and he took way more than what he listed. I think getting a police report filed may help this man remember to return all items

 

[Colleen27]

You're not being petty but I agree with @fla4fun - it is possible, I'd even say likely, that if he's ghosting you/your brother, it is because he has already sold the things he took from the house and doesn't want to admit it (or find himself accused of theft).

 

[ronandannette]

Just how "estranged" is/was estranged? Unfortunately, your brother died without a will. If he had one, do you think he would have wanted you and your brother to have any of his belongings or would he more likely have preferred to see them go to the community of people he chose for himself? Sell the house, recover any sunk costs you have and forget about the things you didn't even know existed until he died.

 

[TwoMisfits]

My two cents - let this all go. Using a lawyer will cost you more than any used items from the house are worth. Used items in any house get you VERY little in return, unless they are truly something collectible or valuable on their own (like gold pieces). It will be a lot of time and energy spent chasing things you may never get back anyway - in court, you'd likely just get their value (and see earlier about what that's worth).

From this point forward, put a new lock on the door, and let your brother go forward with selling what he wants. He may soon decide it's not worth it.

And I am sorry for your loss.

 

[china mom]

Since you were estranged do you find yourself morally (since your question appears to contain morality ponderings too) the rightful owner of the musical instruments and photography equipment? Forget legalities for a second.

In my case I'm estranged from my father and I find that I hold zero right to any of his belongings. My mom on the other hand is estranged from my sister (my sister's choice) and has always been clear to me that items/money (whatever there would be) it would be her desire to be split between her and I however I doubt my sister thinks she's owed to any of the items. We both have had the opportunity to collect belongings of ours we hold in value and don't have any claim any longer to items left.

I think the door was left open for a gray area based on the allowance of others into the property for the sake of taking care of property (the cat). You don't necessarily know if the friends and your deceased brother had a verbal agreement either on the property although if this was the case the friends should have discussed this with you. In hindsight I wouldn't have left the others into the home without first you being there even as grateful I'm sure at the moment y'all were.

That said there is the question about items that were taken for the purpose of the estate and for that I would recommend discussing with an estate lawyer how big of a deal that is or not in terms of settling up the estate.

To answer your question about morality, I do not want or think I am entitled to any of his trinkets, collections or personal items. But, I think that I have a moral obligation to handle his estate legally and fairly. By legally, I mean to get things to the legally rightful heir - the brother who was not estranged from him. Ethically, I feel that this one friend should not have received everything. I think that we should find out if and what friends would like to have and distribute things evenly.

As tot he grey area of letting him in the house... It was actually a friend checking up on my brother who found the body and notified authorities. My good brother, the one who actually did have a relationship with the deceased brother, found out when a mutual friend offered condolences on facebook. We discovered that friends had been posting the news on the decedent's facebook page. By then there was already much discussion about the cat, who is trying to catch it, who will become its new owner, etc. At one point, one friend started coordinating trying to give his stuff away. Another one piped up and told them to stop as his legal heirs should be the only ones who had a say in that. It was quite the FB drama for a few days. Around this time, my brother and I decided that I would open the estate and he would "manage the friends". We decided to allow the one couple to keep trying to catch the cat but did not give them permission to take anything. I am not sure how the conversation came about with the guy who said he took stuff but it was around the time that the arguments online were going on. I am not sure if he volunteered the information or was confronted but by this point, we were aware that things had been taken.

There was one woman who identified herself as a girlfriend but she lives in Canada so I am not sure exactly what the relationship was. We agreed to take it at face value and give her the first chance to claim what she wanted but before we had a chance to make that offer, she helped herself to some things. But, she did tell my brother about everything she took so it is a different situation and it appears that what she took were things that actually belonged to her.

Keep in mind that he was dead for several days before we were even aware and it was happenstance that my brother even found out. They were removing things from the house before we even got there.

 

[china mom]

I may be out of line, since I know nothing about the friend(s), but is it possible that the friend has already sold the items and does not have them to return to you? Have you seen the items? They could be long gone by now . . .

I am sorry for your loss and the resulting stress.

It is a possibility

 

[china mom]

You are not being petty. This man entered your brothers home and stole items. I highly suspect that the list of items he gave you is highly deflated and he took way more than what he listed. I think getting a police report filed may help this man remember to return all items

He actually has not given us a list yet. We know my brother was an avid collector of unusual and expensive instruments as well as some typical ones. and he considered himself quite the photographer. I had seen piles of instruments when he was living with my mother and all that was left in the house when we got there were a few basic, inexpensive guitars.

 

[china mom]

Just how "estranged" is/was estranged? Unfortunately, your brother died without a will. If he had one, do you think he would have wanted you and your brother to have any of his belongings or would he more likely have preferred to see them go to the community of people he chose for himself? Sell the house, recover any sunk costs you have and forget about the things you didn't even know existed until he died.

From me? VERY estranged. My other brother?- they had a social relationship but were not in constant touch. Their paths crossed a few times a year and there were the typical birthday and holiday greetings. Prior to my mother passing, they would spend major holidays together.

I do not think he would have wanted me to have any of his belongings and I do not want any. He may have wanted the other brother to have some things but most likely, his wishes were to give everything to his friends. And I totally planned to honor that. BUT, i wanted to give all of his (very large) friend group a chance to pick items that would be important to them. Now, this guy has all "the good stuff" leaving piles and piles of trash for the rest of the friends.

And, technically, there is the leg issue of his creditors and paying brother and i back for our expenses.

 

[lifesavacation]

I have a sister who I'm not in contact with so I'm using her as a barometer for my response. If she had friends, I probably wouldn't care if they took all her possessions even though our family would be the legal heirs. I might feel differently about any family heirlooms. I would be honest on any filed estate paperwork and indicate his possessions had been taken after death by friends without any claim to these items.

My answer is to let them keep whatever they've taken and move on.

I'm sorry for your loss.

 

[china mom]

My two cents - let this all go. Using a lawyer will cost you more than any used items from the house are worth. Used items in any house get you VERY little in return, unless they are truly something collectible or valuable on their own (like gold pieces). It will be a lot of time and energy spent chasing things you may never get back anyway - in court, you'd likely just get their value (and see earlier about what that's worth).

From this point forward, put a new lock on the door, and let your brother go forward with selling what he wants. He may soon decide it's not worth it.

And I am sorry for your loss.

I agree with the value of being not worth the fight. I am already using an estate lawyer though because the city he dies on is just far enough away for it to be a hassle to go there and it is a very dysfunctional system so I would rather pay a lawyer out of "my inheritance" just to get it done than get any money. I just want to get rid of this house before squatters move in.

 

[china mom]

I have a sister who I'm not in contact with so I'm using her as a barometer for my response. If she had friends, I probably wouldn't care if they took all her possessions even though our family would be the legal heirs. I might feel differently about any family heirlooms. I would be honest on any filed estate paperwork and indicate his possessions had been taken after death by friends without any claim to these items.

My answer is to let them keep whatever they've taken and move on.

I'm sorry for your loss.

That is exactly where I stand regarding his possessions. The only thing I want, if it is located, is my father's trombone (he was in the Navy Band). Other than that, as far as I am concerned, his friends can have everything. But, I cannot legally make that decision without the consent of his other heir, my brother. And I don't feel that this one guy should get everything just because he got there first.

 

[lifesavacation]

That is exactly where I stand regarding his possessions. The only thing I want, if it is located, is my father's trombone (he was in the Navy Band). Other than that, as far as I am concerned, his friends can have everything. But, I cannot legally make that decision without the consent of his other heir, my brother. And I don't feel that this one guy should get everything just because he got there first.

I'm honestly not familiar enough with estate transfers to speak intelligently. I assume, though, that the government will expect the estate to be settled and then funds are dispersed according to law. If someone that didn't have a legal right to the property took the possessions, I assume the government will collect the possessions or the value from the person. But this is based on assumptions. I have no real knowledge or experience. It might be worthwhile to ask your attorney. I don't think it's petty to ask for the possessions to be handed back or to let the person know that the estate will go through probate and they will be named for taking possessions before the estate has been settled.

ETA: You may want to take screen shots or save all documentation that the friends took the possessions in case those disappear.

 

[china mom]

I'm honestly not familiar enough with estate transfers to speak intelligently. I assume, though, that the government will expect the estate to be settled and then funds are dispersed according to law. If someone that didn't have a legal right to the property took the possessions, I assume the government will collect the possessions or the value from the person. But this is based on assumptions. I have no real knowledge or experience. It might be worthwhile to ask your attorney. I don't think it's petty to ask for the possessions to be handed back or to let the person know that the estate will go through probate and they will be named for taking possessions before the estate has been settled.

You are correct... kinda. Right now we are in limbo. We have filed to open the estate and name me Personal Representative. It is sitting on someone's desk at the courthouse. Once the estate is opened, we must make public notice. Creditors then have six months to make a claim against the estate.

If no creditors come forward, then assets are distributed by the PR in accordance with our state's rules regarding inheritance. In this case, the state would require that, after creditors and the attorney are paid, everything is split evenly between my brother and me. Along the way, we can sell assets and place the funds in the estate (you have to open a bank account in the estate's name) but we legally cannot give items away - to ourselves or anybody. We could choose to hold items that we do not want to sell and even decide to give them away later, but technically, we cannot give them away until we have permission from the courts.

As to what the government would do about it... well, nothing unless either his creditors or the heirs initiate some action. If the creditors become aware that there are assets and there is more debt than funds, they could demand that the estate sell the assets to pay the debts. In this case, I would have to initiate some sort of court action, probably a replevin action, to get the items or payment of the value back from the friend.

Most of what the other friends have indicated that they want is truly junk that only has meaning to them and has no value. We could get away with giving those items away now just like we can legally call 1800 GOT JUNK to haul away the contents of the house to make it available to sell. For example, his large pile of plastic grocery bags that takes up an entire room in the house would not need to be included in an inventory. The sheets of music that he wrote that has sentimental value to friends but no monetary value, we could give away immediately.

 

[china mom]

The friends would be doing me a favor if they hauled this stuff out (this is just a small example of the mess)