Perpetuating the dysfunction...another vent about family

[NHAnn]

Your father has a disease......it is called alcoholism. He didn't *choose* to behave as he has. He is sick. It is too bad he didn't seek help long ago.

But he CHOSE not to get help. And he is ultimately responsible for ALL his life choices and the consequences thereof, disease or no disease.

OP- I'm sorry for your pain. Perhaps some of those suggesting that you see him or that you "forgive" him are just thinking that they themselves would want to make amends or come to terms with things , and they find it necessary to go about it that way for themselves, assuming you should feel that way too. But you have to do what is right for YOU, not for your mother or your father, and not for the others who are giving you advice to see him or forgive him or whatever. You have to really work out what is best for you ....in your own heart and soul. To me, if someone doesn't admit or acknowledge the pain or wrong they have inflicted on others, it is more a matter of self-preservation, emotional protection, and acceptance rather than forgiveness. When you work out in your heart what is best for you, no matter what you decide, you will still have grief and sadness for the loss of the realtionship that was never what it should have been ...but hopefully you will find peace and acceptance and ability to move forward with your own DH and family.

 

[Stacey2grls]

I 100% know what you are going through. As a child my mother was never around, totally neglected me, and basically ignored me. I was left to fend for myself, she was verbally abusive towards me, but to me, the wrost part was the fact that I was ignored. She treated the family like garbage, cheated on my father, spend all his money, house foreclosed, homeless, the list could go on and on. She basically threw a piece of dynamite into our family. When I was 18 she found out she had terminal lung cancer that metastisized to her brain and liver. Even though I knew all those years that something had to be mentally wrong with her to do the things that she did, it was so hard to see past everything. It took around 18 months for her to die, and while I wasn't happy to see her go, I knew she was in a better place, and in some strange way I was at peace, because I knew she couldn't hard my family again. From my experience ,and now that it is almost 16 years later, I would try very hard to on some level, try to at least say goodbye to him. Believe it or not, years later even though it sounds like he does not deserve it, you might have some guilt about not saying goodbye to him. I am not saying to "forgive" him, because that kind of sounds impossible in the situation you are in. But, at least years from now you can say that you did this. Good luck to you.

 

[Stacey2grls]

I 100% know what you are going through. As a child my mother was never around, totally neglected me, and basically ignored me. I was left to fend for myself, she was verbally abusive towards me, but to me, the wrost part was the fact that I was ignored. She treated the family like garbage, cheated on my father, spend all his money, house foreclosed, homeless, the list could go on and on. She basically threw a piece of dynamite into our family. When I was 18 she found out she had terminal lung cancer that metastisized to her brain and liver. Even though I knew all those years that something had to be mentally wrong with her to do the things that she did, it was so hard to see past everything. It took around 18 months for her to die, and while I wasn't happy to see her go, I knew she was in a better place, and in some strange way I was at peace, because I knew she couldn't hard my family again. From my experience ,and now that it is almost 16 years later, I would try very hard to on some level, try to at least say goodbye to him. Believe it or not, years later even though it sounds like he does not deserve it, you might have some guilt about not saying goodbye to him. I am not saying to "forgive" him, because that kind of sounds impossible in the situation you are in. But, at least years from now you can say that you did this. Good luck to you.

Believe it or not through all that, I still love and miss my mother. I wish I could go back in time, and tell her that I loved her. Believe it or not years later you may possibly see things differently and had wished you said goodbye. I know that I already said that in the above post. I guess that I feel bad that I wrote all that stuff, even though it is true. I still wish I had her in my life, even with all the things she put me through.

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

I am sorry for your loss. I am sorry too, that your mom wasn't able (for whatever reasons) to be a kind, loving mom to you. My mom has a heart of pure gold. She isn't ever mean to anyone, even if it would be better for her to be mean once in awhile. She was a SAHM and I have many, many good memories of being with her. I love my mom very much, and it makes me so sad that some people don't have that experience. I know sometimes you continue to love someone who has hurt you, so it is perfectly understandable that you love your mom and mourn not just the loss of her but the loss of the mom you never really had.

I was never close to my father. When I was little he traveled for work a lot. He did work hard to provide for us back then. When I was 10 my sister was born, he stopped having to travel for work, and he started drinking. I am lucky I had 10 years with my parents before the drinking started. My sisters have barely seen a week where he has been sober. Before he started drinking he wasn't horrible and abusive, or maybe he was but he was gone so much I don't remember. I am fascinated by people who like their dads. DH is just puzzled by the whole thing because he got along very well with his dad. I can't say I love my father. I appreciate the lifestyle he provided for me - I never went without material possessions. But material possessions aren't everything. Maybe I will be sorry if I don't say goodbye, but maybe I won't. I guess we'll see how things play out as his condition worsens.

 

[ticktock]

Their are many alcoholics that don't abuse their loved ones (except having to watch them destroy themselves). Alcoholism is NOT an excuse for mental and physical abuse. Ever.

To the OP, good luck. I think you are justified in how you feel. Your mother is obviously brainwashed by years of abuse. You are right in feeling sorry for her, but you can't save her. If she couldn't pull herself away from this man to protect her children, there is little chance she will find the inner strength at this late date.

My aunt was in a realationship exactly like this one. Even to the point where my uncle left her and she still ran errands for him. The only differance is he wasn't an alcoholic. This type of behaviour isn't caused by alcoholism, it is part of the person, not a disease.

People like to make excuses for their relatives because it hurts to know you share the same blood as a monster (the uncle in this post is my dads brother) and you will always yearn for the type of person that you wish they really were. But pretending doesn't make that happen. I'm sorry you have had to live with this pain. I think you are doing the right thing by seeing your father with open eyes though. Not the rose colored glasses everyone wants you to.

 

[tar heel]

My cousin was in your situation a few years ago when her father was dying, and she did go visit him, sat with him, helped her long-suffering mother take care of him, and you know what -- even though he physically couldn't beat her or her mother, he made her feel as bad as ever. She said she thought he might apologize for the way he had treated him. She thought it would help if he felt regret for the years of torment. It didn't happen.

It was strange when he was dying. A lot the family, including my parents who knew he had abused my dad's sister for 40 years, visited and acted like like he was a normal person and that it was a tragedy he was dying. One of my aunts summed up the way I felt: she felt some compassion b/c he was a human being who was dying, but just b/c he was dying didn't somehow turn him into a good person.

 

[poohandwendy]

Your father has a disease......it is called alcoholism. He didn't *choose* to behave as he has. He is sick. It is too bad he didn't seek help long ago. On the other hand, your mother is a co-dependent and an enabler. She needs to seek help to understand why she continues to allow him treat her like she does. I am sorry you do not feel able to see him before he leaves this earth. Do what you need to do, but make sure, whatever you do, that you will never regret any decision you make now. Once he is gone, you will never be able to go back.

Actually, all of us have excuses for why we do things. With every action, there is a reaction. Having an illness does not mean the people around you should live with toxic dysfunction.

It is a shame he didn't seek help, it's a shame the mother does not seek help. The OP is not the rescuer, she is responsible to take care of herself and those dependent on her.

The healthy approach is not to go down with a sinking ship.

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

The last time I spoke to my father he had called to "make amends" because he was taking a half-hearted stab at whipping through a 12 step program. 12 Steps in 12 Hours, You can be Drunk Again Tomorrow, maybe? So he told me he was sorry, but went on to say he can't imagine WHY he should be sorry because he never did anything wrong. So he was sorry that I thought I deserved an apology.

My youngest sister already told me he hasn't said a WORD of thanks to my mother for taking care of his sorry butt, driving him to the hospital, making sure he takes his meds, fixing food for him, cleaning up after him (truly disgusting biohazardous clean-up), calling his sister to keep her up to date, on and on. Well, of course he hasn't said thanks because he isn't grateful! When he says jump the appropriate response is "How high?" So why would he ever say thank you? Mother should thank him for the opportunity to serve him, the way he sees it. He isn't going to apologize to me or my mother because he isn't sorry! He always comes back to the point that he earned a good salary. Um, yeah, we had lots of money so that makes him completely unaccountable for any and all behavior? What about after he lost his job and wasn't making money anymore but kept treating my mother like a servant?

After he got laid off I worked 2 jobs so I could afford to move out. I never asked him for anything after that. It infuriated him that he couldn't control me. DH and I paid for our own wedding. One of the VERY rare times my mother stood up to him was the day my DS was born. My father told her she wasn't allowed to go to the hospital, but she went anyway. She was in the room when DS was born.

The scenario of forgiveness all around is a grand delusion for somebody because that will never happen. If I go to say goodbye it won't be for anyone other than myself, and if I got the call right now that he wouldn't last the night I don't know for certain that I would go.

 

[poohandwendy]

The scenario of forgiveness all around is a grand delusion for somebody because that will never happen. If I go to say goodbye it won't be for anyone other than myself, and if I got the call right now that he wouldn't last the night I don't know for certain that I would go.

Not sure that this is your style or if it would help you, but it did help me with unresolved issues when my father died.

I basically wrote a letter to him, spilling out my anger for what he did, expressed what I wished could have been (dreams never realized), how much I wished things could have been different and how sad it was that he died with so much pain and in an emotional mess. And then I told him I forgave him for not being what I needed and that I hope his next life would be better. Then it was over. My very last ''conversation'' with him, one where he would never respond but where I could be totally honest. And I sealed the letter in an envelope, put it in a drawer and walked away.

Sounds silly, but it really helped me cleanse myself of the remaining issues. The ones that I knew would never, ever be resolved.

 

[momrek06]

To the OP: My Father was not an alcoholic BUT he was very verbally abusive to all of us AFTER we were all grown and out of the house. YUP, strange HUH!
We would all go to visit M&D at their summer home in Maine. Dad would come running out to kiss us all and within several hours his WHOLE demeanor would change. He just would be so incredibly, horribly RUDE to everyone and anyone that would be there visiting. It was so stressful to everyone. I would visit them like 3x a summer (they live in Tampa winters). My mom was exactly like OP's mom, she ALLOWED the BEHAVIOR. I said, "mom, I am not coming up here anymore, I leave a nice quiet home (3 hours south) with my family and bring them all up here to see you and dad and dad becomes this huge A**!" "Why do I want to do that to myself"! Then she would start with "so you make me suffer as well, because of dad's behavior"....I said "Then do something to change it or we are all GONE"..."MOM, STAND UP FOR YOURSELF" .....slowly, OP, we all (my bro and sisters (5)) and their families STOPPED visiting. My mom got busy with outside activities with girlfriends (bridge groups etc)! AND they went to counseling. My dad ultimately went on ZOLOFT as it was determined through tests he really had brain issues.
After about 5 weeks on the ZOLOFT, I get this call from my dad. "Karen, I am so sorry for my behavior over the years, I love you more than anything, I am a changed man"....YUP, he is now and has been for like 5 years AWESOME!!!!

BUT OP, my entire family KICKED HIM TO THE CURB. He wanted to change as after NO CONTACT with anyone, he knew he HAD to do something. AND HE DID!!!! DH & I just spent two whole weeks at their condo in Tampa, YUP, he is a changed man. I applaud him for changing BUT that said....LIKE YOU, I was NOT looking back. If dad had never called me ever, he had hurt me and my family SO BAD...I DIDN'T CARE IF WE EVER SPOKE AGAIN....the way I looked at it, it was HIS LOSS, not mine.

OT On Alcoholism: I read where some people refer to A as an illness...I have some issues with this...my DH's Parents (both) were absolutely unbelievable horrid alcoholics. I mean they drank his entire life. Then I met DH and we started dating and I was BLOWN AWAY at this behavior. I never saw it in my life and I was NOT putting up with it. This drinking and falling all over the place and foul language....NOT HAPPENING. When we got engaged I said NO CHILDREN of mine will be subject to that drinking of your parents. All along DH says to me: it is an ILLNESS....
I HAVE TROUBLE WITH THAT: ILLNESS!!! I say to DH, let me get this straight...when they are sober, they pick up their car keys, get in their car, drive to the package store, drive back home, go inside the house, sit down, take the lid of their GIN and drink it.....WHERE IS THE ILLNESS???? THEY ARE CHOOSING THIS BEHAVIOR. A person with CANCER, which in my OPINION is an ILLNESS, did NOT choose that for themselves. I need help in seeing this as an illness.

footnote: DH's Father died in 2001 and Mother has NOT had a drink since his DEATH. We have the BEST relationship in the World as the bottle has STOPPED coming in between all of us!!! I can honestly say to her I LOVE YOU!!! She has made unbelievable strides to get her life on the right track.

OP: for letting me VENT on your THREAD!!!!

 

[micki7337]

I am totally opposed to the belief that family should be forgiven for any and all transgressions based solely on the fact that there is a blood relation. Who came up with that crap?

This is the stuff that makes for bad movies and tear jerker books. Those on the outside can't image how bad thing could be for you to end all ties. But as the OP said, they weren't there.

Unfortunately, I too know what you are facing. Except the tables are turned for me. I haven't seen or heard from my mother in over 18 years. She has never attempted to contact me, my brothers or her 15 grandchildren. I am her only daughter with a 6 year old DD. Except I am now facing treatment for breast cancer and want nothing more than my mother to run in the door, hold me and tell me everything is going to be alright and that I will have a lifetime to spend with my DD. I've had the phone in my hand, the number in front of me. But I can't bring myself to place the call because there is no guarantee that she will react the way I expect or comfort me in any way. Actually, from what I remember, she will blame me for her sad life and accuse me of mistreating her. She was always the victim!

I think if the OP felt her father would acknowledge and apologize for his treatment this might be something she could consider. Without the guarantees why open closed wounds....

 

[dumboiu]

Except I am now facing treatment for breast cancer and want nothing more than my mother to run in the door, hold me and tell me everything is going to be alright and that I will have a lifetime to spend with my DD. I've had the phone in my hand, the number in front of me. But I can't bring myself to place the call because there is no guarantee that she will react the way I expect or comfort me in any way. Actually, from what I remember, she will blame me for her sad life and accuse me of mistreating her. She was always the victim!

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

Vents welcome here!

My grandmother (my father's mother) was also an alcoholic. She would get drunk and drive over to our house - THAT was always interesting. One time she got in our pool, fully clothed, and proceeded to take out her prosthetic breast and wave it around over her head in front of a bunch of our neighbors. Never a dull moment! But she wasn't a mean drunk, she was just unruly. She got older and went to a nursing home and I kept in touch with her until her death. When it came to dealing with their own mother my father and his siblings weren't NEARLY as forgiving as they expect me to be. But I did manage to forge a decent relationship with her through our letters. I sent her pics of DS (her first great grandchild), sent her cards, notes, etc. I didn't go to her funeral, but I kept in touch with her while she was alive and I think that is more important.

Poohandwendy -
I wrote my father a VERY long letter when DS was a newborn. That was about the time I decided I wasn't going to tolerate his behavior anymore and he was going to hear about it. I not only wrote the letter, I addressed it and mailed it to him! My mother saw him reading it. He never mentioned it. He can't control me and he can't take credit for my accomplishments so he really has no use for me. If I don't approve of him, no big deal. He made the decision not to change his behavior and I made the decision not to let him see my son. Fair is fair.

My middle sister takes her baby to visit him, my other sister is still a minor and he has legal rights to visitation with her, and my mother will NEVER distance herself from him. I would love for her to seek some counseling but I doubt she ever will. Nobody else in the family is willing to hold him accountable. As long as he still has SOME people who will do what he says he won't change his ways.

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

I am so sorry to hear about your diagnosis! I can not even begin to imagine how you must feel! I hope that things go well with your treatment and that you DO have a lifetime ahead with your precious DD! I agree with you that sometimes you don't really want to know what would happen if you tried to contact the person you have been estranged from. I hope if you do decide to contact your mom that she is able to offer some comfort. On the other hand, if you decide not to risk the hurt/rejection that might come with contacting her then I hope your other family members are loving and supportive enough to get you through successfully! Hang in there!

 

[Disney Doll]

OP, you need to do what is best for you.

And you need to let go of your desire to try and make your mother change, because that will not happen without her having the desire to change.

And I agree with you, BTW. I have no idea why the world thinks that bad, awful, horrific, terrible behavior should be excused because someone is "family".

 

[disneymom3]

I have no advice, just think you deserve a hug and wanted to say I am sorry you are going through this.

 

[Cindyluwho]

Jackskellingtonsgirl, there's a movie I think you'd really enjoyand it can really help. It made a huge difference in my life. It's called "Drop Dead Fred". Fabulous movie, and it really helps with this kind of situation.

 

[PrincessKitty1]

Your father has a disease......it is called alcoholism. He didn't *choose* to behave as he has. He is sick. It is too bad he didn't seek help long ago. On the other hand, your mother is a co-dependent and an enabler. She needs to seek help to understand why she continues to allow him treat her like she does. I am sorry you do not feel able to see him before he leaves this earth. Do what you need to do, but make sure, whatever you do, that you will never regret any decision you make now. Once he is gone, you will never be able to go back.

EVERYBODY who is an alcoholic is not necessarily sick. Some people are just plain evil, alcoholic or not. Why should being alcoholic absolve a person of being responsible for the evil they do in their lives?

Abusive people generally do not acknowledge their abuse. Really, that's the cornerstone of abusive behavior. Of course he chose to behave the way he did. We all choose our behavior, every day.

To the OP, I, as a complete stranger , totally support your decision to not have anything to do with your father.

 

[lookingforward]

Your father has a disease......it is called alcoholism. He didn't *choose* to behave as he has. He is sick. It is too bad he didn't seek help long ago. On the other hand, your mother is a co-dependent and an enabler. She needs to seek help to understand why she continues to allow him treat her like she does. I am sorry you do not feel able to see him before he leaves this earth. Do what you need to do, but make sure, whatever you do, that you will never regret any decision you make now. Once he is gone, you will never be able to go back.

Alcoholism is a disease and a tragic one. However, not all alcoholics are abusive. Abuse is all about power and control and not caused by drinking. I testify in court all the time in custody cases and many people give drug or alcohol addiction as a reason for abusive behavior. It is not the cause at ALL. One of the examples I give when people say the disease is at fault is this: Has the alcoholic ever been mad at anyone else? Did he ever verbally or physically abuse his boss, store clerk, doctor? No. He abused family members. Somehow he managed to control himself around strangers. It is a choice. I am not trying to argue or cause trouble, but I do feel passionately about this subject. Again, hugs to the OP.

 

[Disney Doll]

I agree with you, lookingforward.

Someone came up with the "alcoholism is a disease" thing many years ago, and thinks that excuses bad behavior.

Well, you know what?? It doesn't. It explains it, but it doesn't excuse it. And an alcoholic who chooses to continue to drink and hurt those closest to him/her will need to accept the consequences of their bad behavior.

As I get older, I am more in tune with choice...our choices and the choices of those around us. I am also much more in tune with consequences. The two go hand-in-hand in my opinion.

The OP has made a choice to no longer be involved with her abusive and unrepentant father. The rest of her family has made a choice to tolerate his bad behavior.

The consequence for the OP may be that she will lose contact with the rest of her family, if they decide to "punish" her for her choice. So be it.

The consequence for the rest of her family is to contniue to put up with an abusive person, and to lose contact with the OP.

Personally, I am all for ridding my life of toxic people, or at least gaining control of my relationship with them. I did it with my toxic, crazy SIL, and am all the better for it. Didn't end the relationship...yet ...but made it very clear that she was expected to behave in a certain way when dealing with me or I would end the relationship permanently. Funny thing is, she behaves around me, but still pulls the same crap with other family who have not yet drawn the line in the sand.