People need to stop complaining!

[DisDadDVC]

The annual dues paid by resale owners cover the operation and upkeep of the resorts, and that is managed by DVCMC, the management company. The perks are paid for by DVD, Disney Vacation Development---the arm of the company that builds and sells DVC resorts. They two are separate entities. So, your annual dues are not paying for any of those perks---those perks are paid for out of sales proceeds of new DVC contracts purchased from Disney.

Furthermore, the existence of a resale market provides competition for purchases from DVD. Therefore, it is in DVD's interest to create incentives for people to buy retail rather than resale.

Florida law requires that the terms of these benefits be disclosed to those who buy from Disney. The old disclosure guide, reflecting the 2011 changes, can be found here:
https://disneyvacationclub.disney.g...erbenefitsguide/MembeBenefitsGuide_011811.pdf

That disclosure guide makes it clear that DVD is the one paying for these benefits, and also states that the value of the benefits is no more than 15% of the purchase price (and I expect it is quite less in practice). The money quote in that disclosure guide is (in all caps and the final sentence underlined):

INCIDENTAL BENEFITS MAY NOT BE HYPOTHECATED, BOUGHT, SOLD, EXCHANGED, RENTED OR OTHERWISE TRANSFERRED, EXCEPT UPON WRITTEN APPROVAL OF DVD, AND ARE SOLELY FOR YOUR BENEFIT AND NOT FOR THE BENEFIT OF YOUR ASSIGNS OR SUCCESSORS-IN-INTEREST. IF YOU SELL YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST, INCIDENTAL BENEFITS DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY TRANSFER TO YOUR BUYER. THE AVAILABILITY OF INCIDENTAL BENEFITS MAY OR MAY NOT BE RENEWED OR EXTENDED TO SUCH ASSIGNS OR SUCCESSORS-IN INTEREST. DVD RESERVES THE RIGHT, IN ITS SOLE, ABSOLUTE AND UNFETTERED DISCRETION, TO ELECT TO PERMIT TRANSFER OF ANY ONE OR MORE INCIDENTAL BENEFITS, AND, IF IT DOES SO, MAY REQUIRE PAYMENT OF FEES AND/OR CHARGES AS A CONDITION TO TRANSFER.​

DO NOT PURCHASE YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST IN RELIANCE ON YOUR ABILITY TO TRANSFER THESE BENEFITS IF YOU SELL YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST. ​

I'm going to assume (but do not know) that a similar statement existed in the disclosure guide prior to the 2011 changes.

The new, post-4/4 disclosure guide has very similar language:
https://disneyvacationclub.disney.g...formembers/memberbenefitsguide/MEADSFinal.pdf

Can we just delete the last 7 pages and leave only this post?

 

[boxer11]

Disney has mastered the money shell game and no one will ever know where 100% of their yearly annual dues go.

 

[Brian Noble]

There is no chance that Disney is playing fast and loose with Dues. There is no reason to break the law to fleece its customers when there are perfectly legal ways of doing so instead.

 

[michelleiada]

Wow...I can't believe I read this entire thread. LOL. I'm happy to be a satisfied resale buyer (bought in 2012) that is grandfathered in. However, I do feel that Disney should have handled this better and made an announcement sooner so that people could decide for themselves if purchasing was still worth it for them. That being said, I did not buy DVC for the perks. In my opinion, the perks are very minimal and I can add that I think the only perk I have ever used is when they offered the annual pass for $399...for one year. Merchandise discounts are minimal, 10%, and I get the same discount with my Disney Visa. If I were to do it all over again I would still buy on the resale market. Disney direct prices are ridiculous!

 

[2thdr]

The annual dues paid by resale owners cover the operation and upkeep of the resorts, and that is managed by DVCMC, the management company. The perks are paid for by DVD, Disney Vacation Development---the arm of the company that builds and sells DVC resorts. They two are separate entities. So, your annual dues are not paying for any of those perks---those perks are paid for out of sales proceeds of new DVC contracts purchased from Disney.

Furthermore, the existence of a resale market provides competition for purchases from DVD. Therefore, it is in DVD's interest to create incentives for people to buy retail rather than resale.

Florida law requires that the terms of these benefits be disclosed to those who buy from Disney. The old disclosure guide, reflecting the 2011 changes, can be found here:
https://disneyvacationclub.disney.g...erbenefitsguide/MembeBenefitsGuide_011811.pdf

That disclosure guide makes it clear that DVD is the one paying for these benefits, and also states that the value of the benefits is no more than 15% of the purchase price (and I expect it is quite less in practice). The money quote in that disclosure guide is (in all caps and the final sentence underlined):

INCIDENTAL BENEFITS MAY NOT BE HYPOTHECATED, BOUGHT, SOLD, EXCHANGED, RENTED OR OTHERWISE TRANSFERRED, EXCEPT UPON WRITTEN APPROVAL OF DVD, AND ARE SOLELY FOR YOUR BENEFIT AND NOT FOR THE BENEFIT OF YOUR ASSIGNS OR SUCCESSORS-IN-INTEREST. IF YOU SELL YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST, INCIDENTAL BENEFITS DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY TRANSFER TO YOUR BUYER. THE AVAILABILITY OF INCIDENTAL BENEFITS MAY OR MAY NOT BE RENEWED OR EXTENDED TO SUCH ASSIGNS OR SUCCESSORS-IN INTEREST. DVD RESERVES THE RIGHT, IN ITS SOLE, ABSOLUTE AND UNFETTERED DISCRETION, TO ELECT TO PERMIT TRANSFER OF ANY ONE OR MORE INCIDENTAL BENEFITS, AND, IF IT DOES SO, MAY REQUIRE PAYMENT OF FEES AND/OR CHARGES AS A CONDITION TO TRANSFER.​

DO NOT PURCHASE YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST IN RELIANCE ON YOUR ABILITY TO TRANSFER THESE BENEFITS IF YOU SELL YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST. ​

I'm going to assume (but do not know) that a similar statement existed in the disclosure guide prior to the 2011 changes.

The new, post-4/4 disclosure guide has very similar language:
https://disneyvacationclub.disney.g...formembers/memberbenefitsguide/MEADSFinal.pdf

Aha! I'm glad somebody dragged out the legalese. I confess I have no idea where our original 2000 contract is, but I recall something about this from our sales agent. People often don't read this stuff, or understand it. If you don't, it's well worth running it past a lawyer, or read it yourself and Google any terms you don't recognize.

 

[CarolMN]

The annual dues paid by resale owners cover the operation and upkeep of the resorts, and that is managed by DVCMC, the management company. The perks are paid for by DVD, Disney Vacation Development---the arm of the company that builds and sells DVC resorts. They two are separate entities. So, your annual dues are not paying for any of those perks---those perks are paid for out of sales proceeds of new DVC contracts purchased from Disney............(snip)........

I'm going to assume (but do not know) that a similar statement existed in the disclosure guide prior to the 2011 changes............

We bought in 1999 and while our documents are not nearly so "verbose", they do include the statement that the benefits are provided by DVD and that "Some or all Member Benefit Programs may be cancelled or terminated at any time".

I believe we early purchasers are still bound by the language Brian Noble quoted due to this statement included in our documents:

"Please refer to the Member benefits Guidebook for details and additional terms and conditions applicable to member Benefit Programs currently being offered".

The bolding is theirs.

 

[Disney Dad ADL]

We bought in 1999 and while our documents are not nearly so "verbose", they do include the statement that the benefits are provided by DVD and that "Some or all Member Benefit Programs may be cancelled or terminated at any time".

I believe we early purchasers are still bound by the language Brian Noble quoted due to this statement included in our documents:

"Please refer to the Member benefits Guidebook for details and additional terms and conditions applicable to member Benefit Programs currently being offered".

The bolding is theirs.

I think what makes it so difficult to know exactly what your rights are is that when you buy resale, you are not signing any contract with Disney. It's strictly between the seller, buyer, and broker. When we purchased, I didn't see any rules / regulations from Disney. On hindsight, I am surprised that our broker did not make us review and sign off on a copy of DVC rules and regulations . I would guess that technically the broker/seller would be liable if they misrepresented your rights as a new DVC member, just as a seller of a house could be liable for not disclosing a problem with their property that they were aware of at the time of sale.

The contract that I signed did mention that incidental benefits are not guaranteed though, but says nothing about how DVC works, nor did I receive any documents with that information.

 

[sgtdisney]

It's kind of funny to have post complaining about people who complain and admonishing them to stop expressing opinions? Make about as much sense as calling someone a member of a club and then prohibiting them from entering a lounge meant for members.

 

[Rhonda Mousie]

I used this analogy before and I think it makes sense. Say you are in the market to buy a car. You have the option of buying that car directly from the manufacturer's dealership (DVC). Or the other option is buying the car from a used car salesman or a secondary seller (resale DVC). Yes, in most cases the resale option is going to be cheaper than the dealership. In the end you will be getting the same exact car (DVC room). However, in many cases the dealership has bonus offers that come along with purchasing the car directly from them, such as free oil change slips, roadside assistance, etc. (this would be AP discounts, access to the top of the world lounge, etc.). Why should the dealership extend these bonus offers to a different seller down the road? It is what makes them unique and gives an extra nudge to those looking to purchase.

Not sure I like your analogy. You are buying a different car from the used car lot. If we all had to share that car we "should" all be treated the same going into the deal. Good business... Post a date they can say the terms are different. Again good business. Not while you are in contract. I agree Dis can change these terms whenever and we know what we are buying. But sometimes you need to come together to point out bad business and make a change.

 

[evenrude]

This is just the nature of the beast, the language about the perks being granted by DVD (not DVC which would be illegal) and their removal has been there since the beginning of time...I'll bet it's not long before they start removing perks or not making new perks available to old-timers like myself who directly purchased 20 years ago and who have not added on....Gotta give the mouse his dollars or they will marginalize you....This kinda shrewd business practice is going to keep happening at DVC and Disney in general (High Ticket prices, Poor Maintenance, etc...) until there is a dip in demand, it impacts the business and it can be completely tied to a customer revolt...Unfortunately that means Disney addicts have to stop buying from the dealer which is admittedly hard to do....

 

[disneynutz]

There is no chance that Disney is playing fast and loose with Dues. There is no reason to break the law to fleece its customers when there are perfectly legal ways of doing so instead.

I would never say "no chance", mistakes can be made, (Aulani), companies can do the wrong things, (Enron, Washington Mutual, Lehman Brothers, and Equitable Life.

Bill

 

[suebeelin]

I would never say "no chance", mistakes can be made, (Aulani), companies can do the wrong things, (Enron, Washington Mutual, Lehman Brothers, and Equitable Life.

Bill

I agree. Lawyers, in house and otherwise, make mistakes. The law is also a grey area oftentimes, and the court can rule against dis.

They might have good attorneys but that doesn't make the attorneys always right.

 

[dvcdream4fld]

I never liked the title of this thread.

DVC members should express provide customer feedback (negative or positive) and Disney should value their feedback, because Disney has built a reputation upon good customer.

Sure, Disney can change resale benefits, but I see that most DVC members and posters agreed that Disney mishandled the communication of benefits especially for those who were in ROFR.

Fortunately, Disney saw that Customers were not happy with this and eventually responded in a way that demonstrates a commitment to good customer service.

I am for continued customer feedback that will improve my experience as a long time Disney fan.

 

[disneynutz]

I agree. Lawyers, in house and otherwise, make mistakes. The law is also a grey area oftentimes, and the court can rule against dis.

They might have good attorneys but that doesn't make the attorneys always right.

Businesses are under pressure to make more and more money. Disney recently lost two senior executives for some unknown reason, these were people at the top, with 20 years or more service so somethings going on.

When employees are under pressure they will cross into the grey area sometimes, not even the legal folks, just the regular employees, tweak a number here, get creative there, business can be tough.

China is putting pressure on the entertainment industry so I expect that more changes are coming as Disney and other companies work to retain their positions.

Bill

 

[Brian Noble]

I would never say "no chance", mistakes can be made, (Aulani), companies can do the wrong things, (Enron, Washington Mutual, Lehman Brothers, and Equitable Life.

Bill

Let's go with "The possibility it has gone undetected all these years is not worth worrying about." Especially so given how easy this would be to discover by audit. As a contrasting example, Aulani was caught very quickly.

If you don't believe that Disney is at least trying to abide by applicable law, you have to re-think why you own with them. (This is one reason I would never, ever own Westgate, even if you gave me the deed for free.)

 

[CarolMN]

....(snip)........ Disney recently lost two senior executives for some unknown reason, these were people at the top, with 20 years or more service so somethings going on..........(snip).......

A bit off topic, but according to CNBC, " Staggs is leaving the company because he didn't receive assurances from the board that he would succeed Iger".

Here's a link to the article if anyone is interested:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/04/thomas-staggs-heir-apparent-to-disneys-iger-steps-down.html

 

[Brian Noble]

The NYT had a great article on this; it is probably paywalled, but a google search on the title with "site:nytimes.com" should turn it up.

Behind the Scenes at Disney as It Purged a Favorite Son

 

[disneynutz]

A bit off topic, but according to CNBC, " Staggs is leaving the company because he didn't receive assurances from the board that he would succeed Iger".

Here's a link to the article if anyone is interested:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/04/thomas-staggs-heir-apparent-to-disneys-iger-steps-down.html

We will never know, most companies love it if their finance guy gets promoted to CEO, another thing is that Iger who was CEO, got himself promoted to Chairman of the Board and CEO so he has a hand in setting policy and making it happen. You would think that he would have a very large say in who they pick as his successor. Maybe he decided not to leave.

Bill

 

[Brian Noble]

I've said it before (and possibly in this thread), but the next Disney CEO has their work cut out for them. For starters, they are likely to have to face The Great Unbundling. The segment with the largest share of company profits is Networks, and the bulk of that is ESPN. Nearly every US household with cable/satellite gets ESPN, and pays $6-$7/month for the privilege, whether they are total sports nuts or couldn't care less. Many think that in the not too distant future, these large packages of channels bundled together will be a relic, with households buying channels a la carte instead. If you estimate how many people actually watch ESPN regularly, those people would have to pay something like $30-$35/month to make up the same revenue that Skipper and crew get now by affiliate agreements. Even I would blanch at $30/month just for ESPN, because I also watch the major broadcast networks, NBC Sports Net, BeIN Sports, Fox Sports, the Big Ten Network, and the Pac-12 Network to get my live sports fix. (I live in the upper midwest and went to school on the west coast; I don't much care about the SEC Network. I watch it, but could live without it. I don't even bother to watch the Longhorn Network.)

The other thing the next CEO absolutely must do is to shepherd the "tentpole franchises" of Star Wars, Marvel, and Pixar to make sure they continue to drive value through the rest of the company, particularly consumer products. A couple of duds (Batman vs. Superman anyone?) and that's a real problem.

The Board must think they can do better than Staggs to meet these challenges for some reason, but I've not heard who that person might be.

 

[brertoad]

I do not have any problem with people complaining, because... freedom of speech and choice not to read someone else's complaints and all that jazz.
(Ironic thread: complaining about complaining. )

I sympathize with many posters on this thread, and many people make a lot of great points.

I feel bad for those who are in limbo, those who were in the process of purchasing a resale prior to the announcement and who are ultimately going to miss the deadline due to problems with the sellers, or just how long the process takes in general. Even if you did all your research there was no way anyone could have expected this to happen so abruptly.