Pentax K100D or Sony DSLR-A100

[ukcatfan]

And as for dropping product lines, most manufacturers have done it. I still have old Canon manual focus lenses, it does not mean I am worried about owning a EOS DSLR.

Sorry, but I do not see that as an apples to apples analogy. The move to AF from MF is an upgrade, not a dropping of a product line IMO. Also, that is not the same thing as what Sony has done in the past. They drop entire divisions of their business, not just product lines. Dropping a product line for them would be stopping producing tape Walkmans while continuing to sell MP3 Walkmans.

Also, the vast majority of the used Pentax lenses do not need an adapter. There are many used AF lenses around. They are not all MF, and like it has been stated anyway, you do not always have to have AF.

Kevin

 

[Anewman]

Sorry, but I do not see that as an apples to apples analogy. The move to AF from MF is an upgrade, not a dropping of a product line IMO. Also, that is not the same thing as what Sony has done in the past. They drop entire divisions of their business, not just product lines. Dropping a product line for them would be stopping producing tape Walkmans while continuing to sell MP3 Walkmans.

Also, the vast majority of the used Pentax lenses do not need an adapter. There are many used AF lenses around. They are not all MF, and like it has been stated anyway, you do not always have to have AF.

Kevin

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

You see Manual to Auto focus as an UPGRADE, but you dont see Beta to DVD as an upgrade. Going from Tape Walkman to MP3 Walkman is IMO also an upgrade in many ways, but I understand if you dont agree.

Point is that MANY manufacturers dropped tape products(and countless other stuff), what that has to do with the price of tea in China I dont know.

Canon has made and dropped countless printer lines, and "abandoned" specific ink cartridges where the consumers only option has been to buy a new printer. What does that have to do with their cameras? NOTHING IMO.

 

[DisneyGirl4188]

I recently got the Pentax k100d and I love it! For under a $1000 I was able to get the camera and 4 lenses.

I am sure Groucho will be by to explain all the benefits of Pentax, but I wanted to put my vote in for them.

 

[photo_chick]

Great for you, if you feel that a 55mm Manual focus lens is "IDEAL"(the word I used) for soccer.

I was jsut gettinga tthe point that old does not mean usless. Generally I am more of a "capture the scene" kind of shooter when it comes to events like that, so for me it actually is ideal. But I do know that what works for me does not work for everyone. But the lack of AF should not preclude a lens form working very well for a situation, which semed like what you were trying to say. There are lots of older manual focus telephoto lenses that work great. I have some for my Canon A-1. They work great, better than what I can afford now for my Rebel. Too bad there is not a good adapter so I can use them on my Rebel. It seems asking someone to manually focus is like asking them to get up off the couch to change the channel now days. To me it is like why spend 3 hours with the TV stuck on one channel becuase the remote is lost in the couch when you could have just walked a few feet and pushed the button! There are times I wish I had a Pentax DSLR so I would have a wider range of older lenses to purchase.

 

[ukcatfan]

You see Manual to Auto focus as an UPGRADE, but you dont see Beta to DVD as an upgrade.

What????? When did I say that? But, to be specific Beta support for consumers was dropped probably ten years before DVD was introduced. It was not an upgrade. The upgrade was from VHS to DVD.

Kevin

 

[ukcatfan]

Point is that MANY manufacturers dropped tape products(and countless other stuff), what that has to do with the price of tea in China I dont know.

My point is that Sony has a history of not having any loyalty to their customers. I say this b/c it is not like they were going out of business or anything but out of the blue discontinued entire divisions of their business. It is applicable b/c Sony has not exactly gone full force in the DSLR market. I would not be shocked in the least bit if all of a sudden they say that they are getting out or change the mount and abandon the old lens owners.

Kevin

 

[Anewman]

My point is that Sony has a history of not having any loyalty to their customers. I say this b/c it is not like they were going out of business or anything but out of the blue discontinued entire divisions of their business.

Actually they continued Beta support until they started planning their DVD release, they(Sony) did not release a VHS player until late 88 but they continued with BETA even though everyone knew it was dead(IE Rolling Stone Cover, Married with Children episode).


Again it has to do with your point of view, I dont think it was "out of the blue" when they discontinued any of the examples you have stated. The writing was on the wall, if you chose to read it. In my opinion, they went with some of those technologies TOO LONG.

 

[Groucho]

First let's get the PSP tangent out of the way... not only can you play PSP games off a memory stick, you can also play Playstation 1 games and a bunch of different emulators like NES, Gameboy, TurboGrafx (my favorite!), various Ataris, Segas, etc. My wife's got several on her PSP, that was one of the big reasons we chose it. Well, that and Loco Roco.

Back on topic. I'm pretty sure that the Pentax lens selection will be better across the board. Also remember that "older lenses" does include autofocus ones, too.

For continuous shooting, the K100D is hampered by an unusually low buffer (five JPGs). They made up for this with the K10D, which can shoot unlimited JPGs, until your memory card is full. As ukcatfan said, an apples to apples comparison is the K10D vs the A100 - in this case, IMHO, the K10D easily beats the A100 in every way, though it may cost slightly more. (Currently $899 w/kit lens at Beach.)

As for mf vs af - for motorsports, manual focus is the way to go, IMHO. The vehicles move too quickly for AF to keep up. Pick the place on the track where you plan on taking a photo, focus on it, then pan on the camera and hit the shutter in the right place. Here's an example that I took on my K1000, 100% manual, back in '95 at Watkins Glen. Any lack of sharpness is due to imperfect panning, not focus.

To, to sum up. If you can live with a 5-picture shot buffer (3 if shooting RAW, but outdoors sports should be fine in JPG as there shouldn't be white balance or exposure issues), the K100D is a great way to go. If you need more, than you're looking at spending more money, and I think the K10D offers a lot more camera for the price.

The good news is that all three are extremely good cameras, though. I would wonder about a long-term commitment from Sony, though. I'm not sure how well they're selling. For a totally unscientific comparison, the Pentax/Samsung DSLR forum at Steve's Digicams has about 4x the number of messages as the Minolta/Sony DSLR forum, and at DPReview, it's about 2x as many for Pentax. I also haven't heard much of anything about a follow-up camera to the A100, whereas Pentax has released several DSLRs, has discussed plans for a K100D and K10D follow-up later this year, they have a working medium-format DSLR that should see release one of these days, and are working on a future "pro" DSLR that will be a step up from the K10D.

 

[Anewman]

I'm not sure how well they're selling. For a totally unscientific comparison, the Pentax/Samsung DSLR forum at Steve's Digicams has about 4x the number of messages as the Minolta/Sony DSLR forum, and at DPReview, it's about 2x as many for Pentax.

I can agree with most of your post but I would not consider the number of messages on chat boards as an indicator of sales numbers.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1175724860.html

Sony Corp. consolidated its second place in overall digicam sales, increasing its market share by 0.6% to 15.8% of the global market. Sony shipped a total of 16.7 million digital cameras in 2006, a 19.2% increase on 2005 figures. Meanwhile the company's entry into the digital SLR market saw Sony debut in third place with a 6.2% market share, after its purchase of Konica Minolta's DSLR unit. Sony shipped a total of 326,240 digital SLRs in 2006.

...

Pentax Corp. shipped 285,932 digital SLRs in 2006, achieving fifth place with a market share of 5.4% ...

If you check the circuitcity website, the Sony has almost 10x as many customer reviews as the Pentax k10d, again not any kind of indicator.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

OK, just a few pointless, snippy comments...but I promise to stay off topic.

PSP? Are people still buying those? The Nintendo DS totally spanked the PSP. It has a huge sales lead (Nintendo just dramatically boosted their financial forecast for the year because of extraordinary DS sales) and usage surveys show an even more dramatic lead. The PSP has cool technology, but people actually use their DSes. Sony makes interesting technology but the seem to have a real problem getting people interested in using it. Just look at the former PS3 fanboys that are over at my house to play with the Wii all the time.


We're arguing over whether Sony or Pentax has more market share in the DSLR market? That's like arguing over who has the better chances in the US presidential election - the Green Party or the Libertarians.


If you're shooting soccer with a 55mm lens, you better hope your kids play on a really, really small field. That's awfully wide for sports shooting.

The vehicles move too quickly for AF to keep up.

I think that's a typo. It should read "The vehicles move too quickly for AF to keep up, assuming your aren't using a 1-series Canon with a fast focusing USM lens." ;-)


OK, enough off topic, snippy comments from me. I'll let you guys go back to your argument, er, discussion.

 

[Groucho]

PSP? Are people still buying those? The Nintendo DS totally spanked the PSP.

Ford has sold more Tauruses than Aston Martin has sold DB9s, too.

As for PS3 vs Wii, the recent GDC was interesting as the consensus seemed to be that Nintendo stumbled badly and Sony hit one out of the park. The Wii is a gimmick, just like the second screen of the DS - which even the most die-hard Nintendo fan has to admit, has been mostly a failure, with few games utilitizing it. I don't think that the Wii will have any legs. Furthermore, as a movie fan, I think that PS3's including of BluRay cannot be underestimated, and further-furthermore, the 60g model is overhyped when the 20g model is a smarter buy, but people like to be sensational and talk about the $600 price tag. Of course, a standalone BluRay player is $800-1,000, so there you go.

Anyway, back to the PSP, the only downside has been the lack of solid games. There are many good ones currently, and since ours is hacked, we can play entire libraries of games for other systems as well. One of the main reasons we got one was as a combo photo viewer/music player (so my wife could show off pictures of our son ) and it is stellar at that, cheaper than equivalent hard-drive-based MP3 players with giant screens. It's an incredibly sexy little device and I certainly would get one again. You can also surf the web with it, play videos, etc.

If you're shooting soccer with a 55mm lens, you better hope your kids play on a really, really small field. That's awfully wide for sports shooting.

I don't understand this at all. Who ever said that someone would be shooting with a single lens?

I think that's a typo. It should read "The vehicles move too quickly for AF to keep up, assuming your aren't using a 1-series Canon with a fast focusing USM lens." ;-)

Oh please.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

As for PS3 vs Wii, the recent GDC was interesting as the consensus seemed to be that Nintendo stumbled badly and Sony hit one out of the park.

Are you smoking crack? Game developers have been dropping and delaying PS3 releases like rats leaving a sinking ship. Sales of the PS3 have been under every analysts' estimates. Simultaenously, Wii development support has been increasing like crazy and stores still can't keep them in stock.

Perhaps Sony tried to hard to follow the Aston Martin business model (which, incidentally Ford is either selling or just sold) and built a technincal tour-de-force without sufficient regards for how important sales are for inspiring software support and without sufficient regards to real-life usability.

You can call innovation a gimmick all you want, but after having lived with a Wii for 5 months, I can tell you that my kids and the neighborhood kids still love it. The cool thing is that non-games love it too. See that recent AP article about how the Wii has been a big hit at retirement homes?

As for the DS touchscreen being a failure, your statement is, um, at odds with the facts. I've bought three of them and I can tell you that most of our games use it and use it pretty well. Once again, it's not just appearling to gamers either. My mother loves playing Soduko on the DS I got her. It's really easy and intuitive beacuse she can write numbers on the screen. There is a reason that Nintendo stock has been on a big rise lately...DS and Wii sales have been fantastic. My only regret is that I didn't get a DS sooner. If I had, I would have invested in Nintendo a while ago and made a lot more money.

I find your comment that "the only downside [to the PSP] has been the lack of solid games." That's like saying that the only weakness of a digital camera is it's weak sensor. The PSP is a game machine. Not having good game support is a big part of what caused it to dramatically unperform expectations. It was mega-hits like Nintendogs and Brain Age (both of which brought large numbers of people to the platform that had never considered handheld gaming systems) that made the DS such an extraordinary success.

As tempted as I was to short Sony over the obvious PS3 fiasco (a system launch that will be studied in future business schools for its ineptness), it's not a big enough component of such a large and diversified company to necessarily drag the whole thing downward.

The really telling thing for me was an article that came out a few months after the DS and PSP launches. As hard as it is to believe now, PSP sales were head of the DS at that point. The interesting thing was that surveys showed that usage of the DS dwarfed the PSP. People were buying technology in the PSP and finding it to not be very fun. People were actually playing with their DSes. I confirmed this with a coworker (hardcore gamer) who owned both and said that his PSP sat on the shelf while he and his son fought over who got to use the DS. I should have known immediately that the game was over and that Nintendo would win.

Sony has to learn that it isn't just about cutting edge hardware. People want to have fun (like Nintendo shareholders have been having).

 

[ukcatfan]

Actually they continued Beta support until they started planning their DVD release, they(Sony) did not release a VHS player until late 88 but they continued with BETA even though everyone knew it was dead(IE Rolling Stone Cover, Married with Children episode).


Again it has to do with your point of view, I dont think it was "out of the blue" when they discontinued any of the examples you have stated. The writing was on the wall, if you chose to read it. In my opinion, they went with some of those technologies TOO LONG.

Sorry, I almost missed your reply with all of the video game talk.

I know and willingly admit that they continued to support and even manufacture new Beta equipment up until recently, but that was commercial support and not consumer support. Yes, you could still buy a player if your old one broke and so on, but b/c Sony made a decision to not push the format, the content manufacturers stopped selling content. Like Mark said about the games, what point is it to have a nice piece of equipment if you cannot buy any content for it. That is what I mean by abandonment of their consumer customers. With their size and strength, they could have forced the content providers to keep Beta going, but Sony gave up and moved the product line to a commercial one.

I apply this to the A100 as speculation. They very well might keep the line going for 100 years, but then again they might never even produce an upgrade to the A100 either. In the timeframe that it has been out, most other manufacturers have released two or three new models.

Sony may have shipped a bunch of units and could even be profiting from it, but that does not mean that the product is meeting Sony's ROI requirements. Just b/c something is popular and making money does not mean that it is doing well enough that the money could not be spent elsewhere in the company to bring in more money. If Sony finds that the money could be better spent elsewhere, they will drop DSLR support quicker than anyone can blink. The DSLR product is a tiny part of their overall business. For companies like Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, and Fuji it is a larger share of overall sales so they are more dedicated to the success.

I probably still will not convince you, but that is how I feel about Sony. I have seen two different friends drop big $$$ on DAT and MiniDisc only to stop using it within a year.

Kevin

 

[Groucho]

I can agree with most of your post but I would not consider the number of messages on chat boards as an indicator of sales numbers.

I forgot to respond to this. Yes, you are absolutely correct. I don't have sales numbers but it certainly appears that the Pentax community is more active than the Sony/Minolta one. There are a few different Pentax-only forums in addition to the subforums on the bigger sites, a mailing list, etc... there's a lot of enthusiasm out there. I also understand that used Minolta lenses are still pretty cheap while used Pentax lenses have gone up dramatically in value.

The forum message count was, as I said, totally unscientific.

 

[Anewman]

I forgot to respond to this. Yes, you are absolutely correct. I don't have sales numbers but it...

I posted 2006 numbers for you.

I also understand that used Minolta lenses are still pretty cheap while used Pentax lenses have gone up dramatically in value.

I agree, so anyone considering a purchase should factor this in as an advantage for the Sony.

 

[Groucho]

As for Mark... is this the same Mark who refuses to support smaller companies because he's afraid they don't have enough support, or may pack up and abandon their supporters? See Sega's last couple of consoles, see the N64, see the GameCube, see the VirtualBoy... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Nintendo's had a much higher percentage of failure in the games arena than Sony has. Yet because Sony has been so utterly dominating, it's fun to try to take them down... well, don't count them out yet.

Are you smoking crack? Game developers have been dropping and delaying PS3 releases like rats leaving a sinking ship. Sales of the PS3 have been under every analysts' estimates. Simultaenously, Wii development support has been increasing like crazy and stores still can't keep them in stock.

Umm, if you read my message, I specifically said the GDC. See this article for one reference. One developer called the Wii a "piece of ****" as well as how Sony did very well at the show while Nintendo fizzled.

The cool thing is that non-games love it too. See that recent AP article about how the Wii has been a big hit at retirement homes?

Actually, I think that's the very much NOT cool thing. As an automotive fan, I am not interested in something like a Camry which attempts to appeal to the lowest common denominator. As a video game fan, I am not interested in the Wii with its rather silly controls. I can't think of any game I enjoy which would play better with such a thing. (To be fair, I don't like gamepads either. Give me a solid joystick, or steering wheel, or light gun, or trackball/keyboard combo any day. Coincidentally, I blame the popularity of gamepads on Nintendo as well, and I always used a third-party "proper" joystick with the NES.)

Put it another way, the Wii is like a Polaroid camera, designed for people who don't have interest in doing "proper" photography.

As for the DS touchscreen being a failure, your statement is, um, at odds with the facts. I've bought three of them and I can tell you that most of our games use it and use it pretty well.

We see reviews of most DS games (for some reason, we have the often-mediocre "X Play" games review show on a season pass on the Tivo) and most games do little with it and very few actually use it in a way that enhances the game. Traditional games just don't work well with a touch-screen, which is one of the reasons that PDA gaming is so painful. Most DS games are not significantly different than if they were played on a single-screen system like the GBA.

I find your comment that "the only downside [to the PSP] has been the lack of solid games." That's like saying that the only weakness of a digital camera is it's weak sensor.

Nonsense. The console itself cannot be blamed for the games. The PSP is an extremely impressive piece of hardware, much more so than any other handheld ever made. There are many very good games for it. Unfortunately, there are also many lousy games.

Part of the problem is price, as well. If you want to hop in the way-back machine, remember the Atari Lynx? Came out around the same time as the original Gameboy? The GB was a primitive black-and-white lump with ghastly graphics, but it was fairly cheap. The Lynx had cutting-edge hardware and a beautiful screen - furthermore, nearly every title released was a winner. Unfortunately, marketing and cost killed it off. However, it was still a total blast having one (we've actually got a couple of 'em) and there's plenty of terrific titles. Same with the PSP.

And FWIW, my wife has a GBA that she used to play incessantly. After she got the PSP, I don't think the GBA was even turned on again. Now it's all Lumines, Loco Roco, Dungeon Siege, etc.

As tempted as I was to short Sony over the obvious PS3 fiasco (a system launch that will be studied in future business schools for its ineptness), it's not a big enough component of such a large and diversified company to necessarily drag the whole thing downward.

Oh, c'mon. It's no worse than the original X-Box introduction. That system took a few years to get any kind of traction in the marketplace. The PS3 is still sold out everywhere you look. As the price inevitably drops, it will sell more. I don't think there's much danger of it being a failure.

 

[Groucho]

I posted 2006 numbers for you.

Gotcha. I saw the Sony ones but overlooked the Pentax ones.

Hmm, nipping at their heels despite not being carried by any of the major "big box" retailers... not too shabby. I'd be surprised if they didn't overtake them this year. I think they probably have in other countries.

I agree, so anyone considering a purchase should factor this in as an advantage for the Sony.

Fair enough.

 

[Anewman]

Hmm, nipping at their heels despite not being carried by any of the major "big box" retailers... not too shabby. I'd be surprised if they didn't overtake them this year. I think they probably have in other countries.

Is that how you see the numbers????

I see it as Sony having a single release MID YEAR out selling the entire PENTAX line that was available for 12 months...

And where exactly do you get that Pentax was not carried in "any" of the "big box" retailers???? Do you not consider Walmart, Best buy and Circuit City to be "big box" retailers?
Cuz they all Sold Pentax DSLRs last year.

but I guess it is in the eye of the beholder.

I think they probably have in other countries.

Article linked is based on the "2006 Worldwide Digital Camera Market Share" report.

 

[ukcatfan]

With as popular as Minolta was, there is potentially a large market out there for Sony to do respectably. The market is large enough to handle more than just a few companies. The concern from my side is that Sony might not think it is profitable enough to keep it going. They are a huge company and will cut the fat of the areas not making a large enough return. They problem is that unless you are on the inside, you have no idea if they are making the ROI that they want. Financial results are also in the eye of the beholder.

Of all DSLR manufacturers, Sony is the most likely to cut it out of the product line b/c it represents so small of a portion of their overall business. The number of shipments is way too little information to use to make an educated decision. Just b/c they shipped 326K units, how do you know that they do not have another 500K sitting in the warehouse collecting dust b/c they overshot sales estimates? This data could be available, but you have not presented it, so the doubt remains in my eyes. Pentax announced that they were shipping 100% of their inventory and had backorders for '06.

Lastly, I think Sony is missing out a little on the Minolta mount by not promoting that enough. The A100 I saw in the store had no mention of the Minolta mount.

Kevin

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Of all DSLR manufacturers, Sony is the most likely to cut it out of the product line b/c it represents so small of a portion of their overall business. The number of shipments is way too little information to use to make an educated decision. Just b/c they shipped 326K units, how do you know that they do not have another 500K sitting in the warehouse collecting dust b/c they overshot sales estimates? This data could be available, but you have not presented it, so the doubt remains in my eyes. Pentax announced that they were shipping 100% of their inventory and had backorders for '06.

I agree that number of shipments is not by itself a predictor of longevity. Some pluses that haven't been mentioned in Sony's favor include the fact that they make their own sensors and that they are a huge player digital camera systems overall. That means that they can share the cost of a lot of R&D and components across both P&S and DSLR systems.

The one area that they are weak is optics. I think that in the near future, the battles will be fought more over the eletronics and imaging side of the business rather than the optics side, so that probably shouldn't hurt them. Sure, Canon is doing some amazing things with diffractive optics, but that's a niche play.

Don't be too quick to play the "bigger part of the business" and "needed financial return" cards for Pentax either. Pentax lost money in the camera division each of the last two years. Their camera division was not the largest division in the company and that was before Hoya (who didn't even make cameras) bought them. In the press releases announcing the acquisition, the Hoya CEO spoke mainly about the acquisiton of medical systems and even said that was the main reason that they bought the company. When they listed their divisions, the camera division was always the last listed.

Other factors that favor Sony over Hoya Pentax in the DSLR market is that Sony has enormous consumer product divisions. Consumer sales area small part of Hoya's business. Sony makes the sensors for both the Sony DSLR and the Nikon DSLR. I can't recall whether Sony or Samsung make them for Pentax. Sony also has lots of experience with eletronics and image processing, including the being the market leader in both professional and consumer video cameras.

On the other hand, if Sony does decide to drop DSLRs from their lineup, I'm willing to bet that the Minolta lens mount will die off completely. If Pentax drops cameras, it will probably be because they sold the practice to Samsung. Samsung wants to grow their camera and camcorder business and the Pentax lineup would be useful to them. They already partner with them, so an acquisition wouldn't be too big of a step.