Pastor with Guts

clh2 said:
cteddiesgirl - I totally agree with this. Separation of church and state is one of the founding principals of this country. I'll take it one step further - WHT are they opening up a session of government with a prayer for? I also consider myself to be a Christian.


That was my question also, even if it happened 10 years ago. I suppose they were expecting a generic blessing, which I have no problem with. Although the pastor didn't emphasize Christianity, he did let a lot of his political views into the prayer, which I believe belongs in a different venue.
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
It's not freedom from religion. The government is not forcing it's citizens to worship or not worship God. The so-called "separation of church and state" is thrown around the Dis like sand.

Right, it's freedom of religion. BUT, there is nothing "so-called" about our separation of church and state. We have (or are supposed to have) the separation of church and state in this country.
patriot.gif
 
Toby'sFriend said:
thank you - interesting to see that this actually happened in January 1996 - nearly 10 1/2 years ago.

Which is pretty much when the marriage of the GOP to the radical right pseudo-Christians really hit its stride.

That part about welfare? Good grief.

I'd love to see someone try and live on welfare for their entire life. Go ahead, give it a whirl!

My ex-wife luckily just found a job as her unemployment had run out (after only several months) and was about to lose her apt. I was laid off last month and in filing my initial claim for unemployment, I found I would exhaust my benefits in a matter of months, too. Luckily I landed a new and better job a couple weeks later (one that's allowing me to even have my trip to WDW this summer :) )


FWIW, some Founding Father quotes:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." - John Adams, 1823

"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion.” - Treaty of Tripoli, 1796
 
I thought I read that YEARS ago.... I consider it very religious but not very Christian.
 

The pastor should never have been invited to offer a prayer before the assembly in the first place. While people are free to pray in government buildings as much as they want and the pastor is entitled to his beliefs, having him pray before a captive audience---people there to do secular work---is wrong. Perhaps his prayer should have been followed by an atheist lecture, a Muslim prayer, or a Wiccan ritual. Many conservative Christians support religion in the government sector as long as it's their religion that receives special rights and privileges.
 
Actually, fighting about having prayer in government sessions is currently a topic happening here.
http://www.nuvo.net/archive/2006/03/08/deciding_controversy.html

JoeEpcotRocks said:
Not have the Federal (or local) Government shove it down our throats.

"shove it down our throats..." A common Dis phrase re religion. :rolleyes:

A pastor praying (or citing God) in a govenment building or session is fully within his rights and is not infringing on anyone else's. It's not freedom from religion. The government is not forcing it's citizens to worship or not worship God. The so-called "separation of church and state" is thrown around the Dis like sand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious_Freedom
"Almighty God" never coerced anyone to follow him, and the imposition of a religion by government officials is impious. - Thomas Jefferson
I take that as freedom from any religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights." - Thomas Jefferson

And this is the same man that made sure that separation of state and church was in the Constitution. Now can you really argue that it's not for non-belief?
 
I want to preface my post with, I am NOT familiar with this site at all. It could be an extreme right wing, or an extreme left wing site for all I know. I do not wish to debate religious matters with anyone who does not believe the way I do.

I'd heard that the House always begins its day with a prayer. I won't debate if that's proper or not, but it's simply the way it is. I was starting to doubt myself because I hadn't seen anyone mentioning this. Thus, I ran the search. So take the site for what it's worth, but this isn't the first I've heard this, so my guess is, it's pretty reliable, at least where starting the business day with prayer is concerned.

Like I said, it doesn't change how people feel about this particular prayer, but it might help to answer why this minister was there to begin with.

http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny09_weiner/06172003halpern.html
 
Add to the list "We have taught values that are antithetical to teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, and called it Christianity"
 
N.Bailey said:
I want to preface my post with, I am NOT familiar with this site at all. It could be an extreme right wing, or an extreme left wing site for all I know. I do not wish to debate religious matters with anyone who does not believe the way I do.

I'd heard that the House always begins its day with a prayer. I won't debate if that's proper or not, but it's simply the way it is. I was starting to doubt myself because I hadn't seen anyone mentioning this. Thus, I ran the search. So take the site for what it's worth, but this isn't the first I've heard this, so my guess is, it's pretty reliable, at least where starting the business day with prayer is concerned.

Like I said, it doesn't change how people feel about this particular prayer, but it might help to answer why this minister was there to begin with.

http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny09_weiner/06172003halpern.html

Yes. Both the US House and Senate have Chaplains on the payroll and they start each session with a non-denominational prayer. As much as I disagree with it (and having to pay for that) the chaplain is certainly in a community that could use some serious counseling. :teeth:
 
sodaseller said:
Add to the list "We have taught values that are antithetical to teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, and called it Christianity"

Word. This is a textbook example of how unChristian the Christian Right has become.
 
cteddiesgirl said:
Actually, fighting about having prayer in government sessions is currently a topic happening here.
http://www.nuvo.net/archive/2006/03/08/deciding_controversy.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious_Freedom
"Almighty God" never coerced anyone to follow him, and the imposition of a religion by government officials is impious. - Thomas Jefferson
I take that as freedom from any religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights." - Thomas Jefferson

And this is the same man that made sure that separation of state and church was in the Constitution. Now can you really argue that it's not for non-belief?

While I do not agree with all that was said in that prayer (though I do agree with some), I do believe he had the RIGHT to say it. I DON'T believe Freedom of Religion means Freedom "from" religion". Freedom OF religion, IMO, means we are ALL allowed to say what our beliefs are, be them Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc....but the government is not allowed to endorse one religion over another. Allowing someone their FREEDOM OF SPEECH to say a prayer is not an infringement of that. I personally don't care who says what prayer of what religion. Sorry, but it is not going to have some major impact on my life if someone says a prayer I don't agree with, and I think it is ridiculous that some people act like it does. We have the right to speak what we believe. And we have the right to not listen to what we don't agree with. If you are a non-believer in Christianity, then just chalk it up to you don't agree, rather than being "offended." IMO, the biggest problem with this country is everyone is offended by everyone else. :rolleyes:
 
Aidensmom said:
While I do not agree with all that was said in that prayer (though I do agree with some), I do believe he had the RIGHT to say it. I DON'T believe Freedom of Religion means Freedom "from" religion". Freedom OF religion, IMO, means we are ALL allowed to say what our beliefs are, be them Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc....but the government is not allowed to endorse one religion over another. Allowing someone their FREEDOM OF SPEECH to say a prayer is not an infringement of that. I personally don't care who says what prayer of what religion. Sorry, but it is not going to have some major impact on my life if someone says a prayer I don't agree with, and I think it is ridiculous that some people act like it does. We have the right to speak what we believe. And we have the right to not listen to what we don't agree with. If you are a non-believer in Christianity, then just chalk it up to you don't agree, rather than being "offended." IMO, the biggest problem with this country is everyone is offended by everyone else. :rolleyes:
I don't think anyone is saying that pastor doesn't have the right to say what he does... I would fight for his right to say it
 
JennyMominRI said:
I don't think anyone is saying that pastor doesn't have the right to say what he does... I would fight for his right to say it

I guess I just interpreted a few posts to say he should not have been allowed to say a "prayer" at all....maybe I am misreading?
 
Aidensmom said:
I guess I just interpreted a few posts to say he should not have been allowed to say a "prayer" at all....maybe I am misreading?
I'm forgetting that the story is he said it in the capital? It seems they try to say an non-denom prayer and/or vary the clergy who says it?
 
Aidensmom said:
I guess I just interpreted a few posts to say he should not have been allowed to say a "prayer" at all....maybe I am misreading?

I was also misreading the same thing.
 


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