Partner up! Request for the teachers out there

Interesting thread. I work in a project based organization where I simultaneously work on several projects with different team configurations. In my experience, some people are just not skilled in working on teams. I wonder if these are the same people who didn't learn to work together on teams in schools. Learning to become a good team player is not an easy skill and applaud those teachers why assign team based work!

I have worked on many group projects and no matter what level it seems there are some who dont work well in groups. DH, just yesterday was complaining about someone in his group that did not complete his part of the project on time. They may now lose the business. DH is in sales and this is not good for him.

I have love/hate relationships with group projects. I think they are absolutely necessary for the reasons above, when you get in the work world it is very uncommon when you do not have to rely on a someone else to do your job. I think it is a good skill to have.

I like when DSs have had to work on projects with people they didnt get along with, many times it helped and they got to know my kid better. In fact one bully stopped teasing DS after working on a project together. He also became friendly with people who he didnt really know before. But there are so many times I wish he was working with his BFF, from a logisitcal standpoint, getting them together and also bc they would have the same work ethic. But then I realized that was not real life.

I wish more projects were done in school so that teachers could monitor the groups. Also it makes it easier not to have to worry when to get the kids together outside of school. DS had a few kids who were from divorced families and it never failed that it would be dad's weekend and dad would not cooperate with getting the kids together.
 
My DD, who is a junior, was put in a group with a bunch of slackers for a project that was part of their final. The others didn't do their part or did it poorly and they got a group grade of a big fat F. That took her A to a C. She asked if she could be given extra credit or at least grades on her part. Nope. I even spoke to the teacher ( and I usually don't interfere with things in school to often). He said, that is just the way it was. I told him how unfair I thought this was and if he knows who is a slacker maybe next time he could evenly distribute them for group projects.
 
Even in college at 45 years old I still hate group projects. I take my classes online and have had at least one professor each semester assign a group project. I live 150 miles from campus and am not driving that far to get together with these people. I have now started letting the professor know up front that I live too far, and would appreciate to work solo.
 
I HATED group projects for D, especially in middle school. One complete slacker kid managed to ruin her Girl Scout Silver Award ceremony (she sat through the ceremony worried that he wouldn't get the work in, and he didn't). I normally stay out of it, but that time I went to the teacher and the principal--lots of hassle.

In high school, she was in IB, everyone was hard working, no problems. There is a huge difference between school projects and work projects--most people want to keep their jobs. And someone is the boss, and can get the slackers to work.
 
Oh, and for the record, I would like to offer a bit of support for all those kids who don't earn the A's. Sure, some of the kids are the top of my classes are the ones with the strong work effort... some of them. Contrary to popular belief, not all the "industrious" kids are the ones with the highest grades. Some of my most industrious kids work their tails off for a B, or even a C. I've taught some incredibly gifted, incredibly lazy kids as well. For some,math is easy.... they see the logic and just don't have to work as hard to attain those high grades. Not every kid with high grades is a good student. And some of those A students are in it only for the grades; maintaining that precious "4.0 average" is all they care about. Some will happily cheat to get those 4.0's if they think they can get away with it. Sometimes Honors classes can be tough to teach. Not because of the material, but because of the overwhelming concern about grades, on the part of the kids and their parents. Sometimes the Honors kids put those high grades above all else, while their "average" classmates exhibit a real love of learning.

Some of the most industrious, hard working kids I've ever met have been C students. Ask any teacher who has been in the profession for a while; the correllation between work ethic, or decency as a human being, and grades isn't always as high as some might think. Good kids, good work ethics, good study habits come with a pretty wide variety of GPA's. Please don't deny your "A student" sons and daughters the opportunity to learn from some of those hard working C students; you might be surprised at the lessons some of those kids can teach. Some of them put in many, many times the number of hours per night their brighter classmates put in. And they persevere, even when the results of those hours of studying don't land them on the honor roll.

I'm kind of stunned at some of the comments I've seen on this thread about kids who don't achieve those top grades, and the names they've been called. If only you could spend some time in my classes, you would come to know some incredibly wonderful kids who don't happen to be at the top of their classes. But I would be thrilled if my own kids brought these kids home as friends

While I'm not a fan of group work the way some here have described it, I'm not sure I would label my colleagues as "mean" simply because they don't share my point of view.

YES.

As a long time teacher and teacher of gifted students, I will also mention that some students can totally take over a project- refusing to allow those they perceive as "lesser" any opinions on the format, data collection, etc. Some of those "slacker" students would really like to participate, but are shut out by control freaks (or their parents!). Just a different perspective, depending on whether your kid is the A+ student or the C student (I'm a parent to one of each).

Like it or not, Common Core is coming and more group work is going to be required. It won't be the teacher's choice. Hopefully, most will randomize groups and kids and parents will learn how to get along with a wider range of people. In this age of computers, staying indoors, and social media, we spend LESS time with each other and kids' social skills aren't what they were 20-30 years ago. Working collaboratively is a big part of Common Core, in part because businesses and universities say that it's sorely lacking in the younger folks.
 
Personally, I hate working in groups. There is always someone (usually me) who does all of the work while the others contribute minimally or not at all.

BUT, team work and group projects can be a HUGE part of the working world. Kids need to learn how to deal with it. That being said, I think the teacher should pick the groups and not let the kids do it.
 
I think that partner work is so important in school. Kids are much more likely to absorb and understand an idea if they're given a chance to think it through and talk about what they've learned. In addition, partner work teaches important social problem solving skills. However, I also agree that it's a landfield and that teachers need to think carefully to create partnerships and routines for working in partnerships that work. I think that partner work should be done in class, and not assigned as take home tasks, so that it can be supervised and teachers can give feedback on the process not just the end result. Finally, I don't think that kids should be allowed to choose partners, but I also don't trust random selections. I think there's to much of a chance for the bully and his victim to be pulled together, for example.

At our school, in the younger grades, teachers partner up kids in various ways. A child might have 4 different partners. One who is on a similar level in reading/writing, one of who is on a different level in reading/writing, one who is on a similar level in math, and one who is on a different level in math. They're chosen pretty carefully to be compatible, and the teachers select what kind of partnership they want for the activity. For example, we do a lot of "turn and talk" where kids get into pairs and share their reaction to something that they've heard or seen or read. For this heterogenous partnerships work well. On the other hand, when kids are sharing with each other about the books they've read it makes sense to have a partner who is reading similar books. Each partnership will have a name so teachers can say "find your reading buddy" or "get into your peanut butter and jelly partnership" and the kids will partner up. They'll give out jobs, saying "Peanut Butters, you'll go first today" or "Partner B, I'd like you to be the note taker on this one". It all works well.

Finally, I do think that there are lots of situations where one child takes over. Often the child who perceives themselves to be "better" can be very controlling and dismissive of the other child. Then it becomes a self fufilling prophecy. The child who is told that little is expected of them, who is given little chance to feel ownership and leadership of the project, disengages, and then gets blamed when things don't go well. I think this can be addressed by having clear guidelines for decision making with teams, and gradually moving from very short very structured activities, to longer more complex ones.
 
The kids getting 'stuck' doing all the work need to learn how to deal with that - delegate, communicate, get the teacher involved. They only get 'stuck' because they let it happen. I don't know how many times I've spoken with students about this issue.

It's a very important skill to learn, so important that MIT has added manditory classes in communication and team building. Seems their very bright students stink at working in groups and communicating in the workplace.

I agree with the PPs who mention how a "slacker" could really be the result of an overbearing, know-it-all partner. Seen that happen too. Partners that are BFFs will learn that sitting there chatting gets them more homework, or a lower grade. Good learning experience in itself as well.

The students who panic or stress out over the picking of partners - well, the more times they have to do it, the easier it gets. Life isn't fair, someone is always last, and being last doesn't mean anything if you do a good job. If there's an odd number of kids in the class, have 1 group of 3. If it's even, it works out by itself. What's so hard with that?

Kids need to suck it up and deal with it, and parents need to let the kids learn. If you keep sheltering your kids from social situations then they end up being adults who cannot function in society, can't hold a job, and may never be independent, productive members of society.
 
Wow they need to be adults in grade school???? How about you wait until they enter High School at least. I hated group projects and I hated my kids having to do them. I see no good to be had doing them. I am long past school age as are my kids and so far had no problems with group projects since and I do them a lot. Not one thing about doing group projects in school helped me with my adult life, but it did make me feel horrible all the time. Flame me if you wish but this is one thing I will not be changing my mind about.
tigercat
 
Wow they need to be adults in grade school???? How about you wait until they enter High School at least. I hated group projects and I hated my kids having to do them. I see no good to be had doing them. I am long past school age as are my kids and so far had no problems with group projects since and I do them a lot. Not one thing about doing group projects in school helped me with my adult life, but it did make me feel horrible all the time. Flame me if you wish but this is one thing I will not be changing my mind about.
tigercat

Sorry that it made you feel horrible, but yes, you need to start on this in grade school. Social skills are needed at every age, and learning how to work in a group, or with someone you don't know or particularly like, doesn't happen overnight. It takes a lot of experience and trial and error. By high school, you need to have that skill already.
 
....

Oh, and for the record, I would like to offer a bit of support for all those kids who don't earn the A's. Sure, some of the kids are the top of my classes are the ones with the strong work effort... some of them. Contrary to popular belief, not all the "industrious" kids are the ones with the highest grades. Some of my most industrious kids work their tails off for a B, or even a C. I've taught some incredibly gifted, incredibly lazy kids as well. For some,math is easy.... they see the logic and just don't have to work as hard to attain those high grades. Not every kid with high grades is a good student. And some of those A students are in it only for the grades; maintaining that precious "4.0 average" is all they care about. Some will happily cheat to get those 4.0's if they think they can get away with it. Sometimes Honors classes can be tough to teach. Not because of the material, but because of the overwhelming concern about grades, on the part of the kids and their parents. Sometimes the Honors kids put those high grades above all else, while their "average" classmates exhibit a real love of learning.

Some of the most industrious, hard working kids I've ever met have been C students. Ask any teacher who has been in the profession for a while; the correllation between work ethic, or decency as a human being, and grades isn't always as high as some might think. Good kids, good work ethics, good study habits come with a pretty wide variety of GPA's. Please don't deny your "A student" sons and daughters the opportunity to learn from some of those hard working C students; you might be surprised at the lessons some of those kids can teach. Some of them put in many, many times the number of hours per night their brighter classmates put in. And they persevere, even when the results of those hours of studying don't land them on the honor roll.

I'm kind of stunned at some of the comments I've seen on this thread about kids who don't achieve those top grades, and the names they've been called. If only you could spend some time in my classes, you would come to know some incredibly wonderful kids who don't happen to be at the top of their classes. But I would be thrilled if my own kids brought these kids home as friends

While I'm not a fan of group work the way some here have described it, I'm not sure I would label my colleagues as "mean" simply because they don't share my point of view.
:worship:

YES.

As a long time teacher and teacher of gifted students, I will also mention that some students can totally take over a project- refusing to allow those they perceive as "lesser" any opinions on the format, data collection, etc. Some of those "slacker" students would really like to participate, but are shut out by control freaks (or their parents!). Just a different perspective, depending on whether your kid is the A+ student or the C student (I'm a parent to one of each).

Like it or not, Common Core is coming and more group work is going to be required. It won't be the teacher's choice. Hopefully, most will randomize groups and kids and parents will learn how to get along with a wider range of people. In this age of computers, staying indoors, and social media, we spend LESS time with each other and kids' social skills aren't what they were 20-30 years ago. Working collaboratively is a big part of Common Core, in part because businesses and universities say that it's sorely lacking in the younger folks.

Love the 1st paragraph and you took the words right out of my mouth with the 2nd. The next few years are not going to be easy ... for any of us. :headache:
 
Did anyone see The Middle this week about this very topic? Hilarious! Although, my kids are A students and they hate to be stuck with slackers. A teacher friend of mine says the Common core curriculum is going to require more group work, especially kids teaching kids.

Unfortunately, this is very true. I just wrapped up my first formal observation with our new guidelines. One of the things we had to focus on was varying group sizes. Like it or not, we have to show students working as individuals, in small groups, and in larger groups.

YES.

As a long time teacher and teacher of gifted students, I will also mention that some students can totally take over a project- refusing to allow those they perceive as "lesser" any opinions on the format, data collection, etc. Some of those "slacker" students would really like to participate, but are shut out by control freaks (or their parents!). Just a different perspective, depending on whether your kid is the A+ student or the C student (I'm a parent to one of each).

Like it or not, Common Core is coming and more group work is going to be required. It won't be the teacher's choice. Hopefully, most will randomize groups and kids and parents will learn how to get along with a wider range of people. In this age of computers, staying indoors, and social media, we spend LESS time with each other and kids' social skills aren't what they were 20-30 years ago. Working collaboratively is a big part of Common Core, in part because businesses and universities say that it's sorely lacking in the younger folks.

I agree with the entire post. I especially agree with that first paragraph. And I'm also a parent to both types of students. As a teacher, I'm only doing my job correctly if I monitor my groups to be sure that "high achiever" or "social butterfly" aren't taking over the entire project.

I sympathize with those students who are uncomfortable with the group projects. DS is hf autistic. He is a very capable student, but he strongly dislikes working with others. I will spare you the details, but believe me, I do understand.
 
The two times a year I do it, here's my reasoning:

I give one huge problem that has 20something parts. (I teach Geometry. Once it's a huge circle, the other time it's a huge triangle containing parallel lines, altitudes, angle bisectors, and anything else I can think of inside it.)

I tell the kids that tomorrow I'm going to ask for a consensus on the answers. Then I shut the doors to keep the noise from bothering other classes, and let them work. Some kids form groups, others are comfortable working on their own. I walk around the room from one group to another, dropping hints if needed to jumpstart anyone who needs it.

But when someone gets stuck, he or she can simply ask someone for help. Some kids are very hesitant to ask too many questions; they're afraid of looking stupid. Yet they're less hesitant to ask their good friends the same question. I've also found that even the strong kids learn a lot by explaining their work to their friends. They say the very best way to learn something is to teach it, and I see that when I do this particular assignment. I always catch a lot of "aha!" moments.

Inevitably, they get at least a 9/10 on the quiz; the vast majority of the time they get all the answers correct. And it helps break up the rythym of class. After the first time, they always ask whether I have any more "mega-problems" and are happy to learn that there's another on the horizon.

Oh, and for the record, I would like to offer a bit of support for all those kids who don't earn the A's. Sure, some of the kids are the top of my classes are the ones with the strong work effort... some of them. Contrary to popular belief, not all the "industrious" kids are the ones with the highest grades. Some of my most industrious kids work their tails off for a B, or even a C. I've taught some incredibly gifted, incredibly lazy kids as well. For some,math is easy.... they see the logic and just don't have to work as hard to attain those high grades. Not every kid with high grades is a good student. And some of those A students are in it only for the grades; maintaining that precious "4.0 average" is all they care about. Some will happily cheat to get those 4.0's if they think they can get away with it. Sometimes Honors classes can be tough to teach. Not because of the material, but because of the overwhelming concern about grades, on the part of the kids and their parents. Sometimes the Honors kids put those high grades above all else, while their "average" classmates exhibit a real love of learning.

Some of the most industrious, hard working kids I've ever met have been C students. Ask any teacher who has been in the profession for a while; the correllation between work ethic, or decency as a human being, and grades isn't always as high as some might think. Good kids, good work ethics, good study habits come with a pretty wide variety of GPA's. Please don't deny your "A student" sons and daughters the opportunity to learn from some of those hard working C students; you might be surprised at the lessons some of those kids can teach. Some of them put in many, many times the number of hours per night their brighter classmates put in. And they persevere, even when the results of those hours of studying don't land them on the honor roll.

I'm kind of stunned at some of the comments I've seen on this thread about kids who don't achieve those top grades, and the names they've been called. If only you could spend some time in my classes, you would come to know some incredibly wonderful kids who don't happen to be at the top of their classes. But I would be thrilled if my own kids brought these kids home as friends

While I'm not a fan of group work the way some here have described it, I'm not sure I would label my colleagues as "mean" simply because they don't share my point of view.

OP here. This is very true. I have a "gifted and lazy" kid and a "works her butt off for B's and C's" kid. There are some great kids out there who aren't straight A students and aren't in the gifted program.
 
The kids getting 'stuck' doing all the work need to learn how to deal with that - delegate, communicate, get the teacher involved. They only get 'stuck' because they let it happen. I don't know how many times I've spoken with students about this issue.
It's a very important skill to learn, so important that MIT has added manditory classes in communication and team building. Seems their very bright students stink at working in groups and communicating in the workplace.

I agree with the PPs who mention how a "slacker" could really be the result of an overbearing, know-it-all partner. Seen that happen too. Partners that are BFFs will learn that sitting there chatting gets them more homework, or a lower grade. Good learning experience in itself as well.

The students who panic or stress out over the picking of partners - well, the more times they have to do it, the easier it gets. Life isn't fair, someone is always last, and being last doesn't mean anything if you do a good job. If there's an odd number of kids in the class, have 1 group of 3. If it's even, it works out by itself. What's so hard with that?

Kids need to suck it up and deal with it, and parents need to let the kids learn. If you keep sheltering your kids from social situations then they end up being adults who cannot function in society, can't hold a job, and may never be independent, productive members of society.

And when the teacher says too bad, so sad? Then proceeds to put your kid with the same slacker for the next project? Your child calls the other child, arranges get togethers, etc. & the other child still does squat?
 
Fwiw-my dd is now a college freshman. She still has slackers on group projects. Going back a few years-these we're my "beefs" about group projects:

Please do not assign my dd a partner who is leaving tomorrow to go on a family vacation and will be missing more than a week of school, and the due date is "during" the vacation.

Please allow enough time in school to get the work done. It is really hard at times to get the kids together to work if the parent's schedules don't match up. (Once my dd was able to drive herself-this was less of an issue.)

Don't get mad at my dd if she gets a slacker partner and dd decides it isn't worth the effort of doing all the work. Seriously, dd one time decided it wasn't worth the grade on the project to do the extra work on a project. It did not impact her final grade in the class. Dd did not feel the need to bail out the partner. (Hope this one makes sense!)

I'm not a group project plan, although I did enjoy watching dd and her partner work through the trebuchet that they needed to build in physics class. The launching of marshmallows was really quite humorous;). As physics was a more advanced science class-the students were fairly well matched.
 
I guess I was trying hard to be nice. It killed any self esteem I had and has since I was in school. Try to tell me that it is good for kids really makes me realize that you (the generic you) didn't have to live through it as someone who tried really hard but was totally killed by other students. It didn't help me socially it hurt me beyond belief. Just knowing that anytime the teacher said group project or pick a team you were going to be made fun of was just great for me..NOT. I started off as a smart someone who really wanted to learn and be with others of my own age (I did have 7 siblings) to very quickly realizing that school was not some place I wanted to be. And did any of the teachers help???? Of course not because it was important that I become social.
tigercat
 
The kids getting 'stuck' doing all the work need to learn how to deal with that - delegate, communicate, get the teacher involved. They only get 'stuck' because they let it happen. I don't know how many times I've spoken with students about this issue.

Of course part of the reason they let it happen is because they don't want to wind up looking foolish or get stuck with a rotten grade due to poor efforts or lack of skills from their partner(s).
 
I guess I was trying hard to be nice. It killed any self esteem I had and has since I was in school. Try to tell me that it is good for kids really makes me realize that you (the generic you) didn't have to live through it as someone who tried really hard but was totally killed by other students. It didn't help me socially it hurt me beyond belief. Just knowing that anytime the teacher said group project or pick a team you were going to be made fun of was just great for me..NOT. I started off as a smart someone who really wanted to learn and be with others of my own age (I did have 7 siblings) to very quickly realizing that school was not some place I wanted to be. And did any of the teachers help???? Of course not because it was important that I become social.
tigercat

Tigercat,

I am so sorry that happened to you. There's no question in my mind that your teachers totally failed you, and on behalf of my profession I have to apologize.

I still think there's a middle ground between allowing kids to pair up Lord of the Flies style and never having kids work together. A good teacher pairs up kids intentionally. They know which kids need kindness and choose their partners with special care. They also build from small experiences "Turn and tell your partner what you think will happen next in the story", to slightly longer experiences, to big projects, and they provide guidance and coaching and behavioral feedback at every step. It sounds like that wasn't done for you and I'm so sorry.
 
I guess I was trying hard to be nice. It killed any self esteem I had and has since I was in school. Try to tell me that it is good for kids really makes me realize that you (the generic you) didn't have to live through it as someone who tried really hard but was totally killed by other students. It didn't help me socially it hurt me beyond belief. Just knowing that anytime the teacher said group project or pick a team you were going to be made fun of was just great for me..NOT. I started off as a smart someone who really wanted to learn and be with others of my own age (I did have 7 siblings) to very quickly realizing that school was not some place I wanted to be. And did any of the teachers help???? Of course not because it was important that I become social.
tigercat

You're breaking my heart here. Yes, this is what I was talking about when I started the thread. There is always going to be a kid (or kids) who will get hurt and it isn't worth it. Are they going to have to survive in the real world, yes, of course. Do middle schoolers behave like adults in the real world, hmmm...no, they don't. I never intended this thread to be about kids who have to work with none-straight A students. It was about the kids who have to go up and see the teacher and say "I don't have a partner".
 
My DS has dealt with this issue, he has been the one left until last that no one has chosen. It doesn't happen every time but it has happened a couple of times. Now, when they say they are picking for a group project he gets very nervous and worries it will happen again. It makes him feel horrible when this happens.

Another thing I hate about group projects....that same DS was in his Gifted and Talented Industrial Tech class with his friends and they picked groups for a project. He was with two of his friends. This was right before the winter break. They were expected to work on it over the break and it was due right after. BOTH of the other kids went away for the ENTIRE break, one didn't get back until days after it was due. (my DS had NO idea they were going away when they picked groups)

Basically my DS ended up doing the ENTIRE thing himself. We ended up footing the bill, the materials needed came to about $100. And all 3 kids will get the same grade even though they did NOTHING, absolutely nothing.
 
































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